Islam and Terrorism

[S.A.M.]

You haven't said:

how else would you have it? do you aim to discard all morality? Should there be any fidelity or faith? Would you abjure all accountability?

[Michael]

I don't recall any verse which prohibits them from being equally accountable as say Jews or Muslims.

You're OK with holding them to equal account but can't seem to come to terms with them being equal in validity.

Why is that?

Funny, because of this intolerant attitude most people of the world are thinking of religious such as Buddhism as being more valid when compared with Islam. Why is that?

[S.A.M.]

You're OK with holding them to equal account but can't seem to come to terms with them being equal in validity.

Why is that?

Its not possible to hold conflicting views on a subject. You already know my theological views on Buddhism.

Funny, because of this intolerant attitude most people of the world are thinking of religious such as Buddhism as being more valid when compared with Islam. Why is that?

I'm a Gandhian, remember?

i.e. One man with the truth is a majority

It doesn't matter what everyone else thinks, if it doesn't convince me.

So tell me:
how else would you have it? do you aim to discard all morality? Should there be any fidelity or faith? Would you abjure all accountability?

[Michael]

Its not possible to hold conflicting views on a subject. You already know my theological views on Buddhism.

I'm a Gandhian, remember?

i.e. One man with the truth is a majority

It doesn't matter what everyone else thinks, if it doesn't convince me.

Don't forget, one man (or women) with a bunch of intolerant bullshit is still an arse-hole. That's what you seem to be missing.

One truth we can agree on is, you're going to die, as will I and everyone else (minus a scientific breakthrough) and when we do - that's it no more life.

It seems that dealing with an unwanted truth isn't easy is it? I understand that. Hence religion and a mythical paradise awaits us after death (or a planet or whatever). OK, you want to belief this or that to get your through the day, go for it, but why on the Gods green earth do you have bring all the intolerant baggage with you? One God, One Book, One Prophet are Unnecessary evils. People are actually being murdered over these unnecessary intolerances. Actually killed SAM. It's no joke anymore - people are dieing specifically to defend these unnecessary intolerant memes from being chocked off.

One would almost think these meme's are consciously fighting for existence as they seem to kill off an tolerance that may supersede them?

Anyway, you've said it yourself, our species is violent - why would you then turn right around help it along when your own culture has produced such better ideologies? Made you the person you are. Are you really so desperate to believe in an afterlife you'd happily cut off your nose to spite your face?


The mind boggles

So tell me:
how else would you have it? do you aim to discard all morality? Should there be any fidelity or faith? Would you abjure all accountability?

What are you asking me here? To pretend there's a God and figure out what She wants; or pretend I am God and tell you what I'd do with the power of a God? I'm just not clear on the question.

[S.A.M.]

So lets see, I like Islam because its philosophy is agreeable to me. Other religions to me are not equally valid because there are points in their theology that are either irrational, racist or immoral to me, as a person. e.g. I think Buddhism is ridiculous because the basis of its philosophy is that all life is suffering and you need to "let go" of everything that makes you "suffer" to reach a state of mind where nothing touches you.

This is your definition of "intolerance"

While your opinion of religious people goes something like this:

Orthodox Jews practice an intolerant religious yes. If I were extremely wealthy I would pay African Americans to try and join Orthodox synagogues in New York (or elsewhere in the USA) and sue any that tried to prevent them from joining. The idea that people are "born" a religion is a backwards idiotic mentality. I noticed Malaysian Muslims passed a law saying Muslims are born "Muslim" and therefor can not legally be able to convert out of being "Muslim".

Talk about idiotic superstitious wankers.

Religious Jews are superstitious yes. Actually anyone who is religious is superstitious and many who are not.

source

And this is what? Do you consider Orthodox Judaism or Islam as equally valid viewpoints as your own?

What are you asking me here? To pretend there's a God and figure out what She wants; or pretend I am God and tell you what I'd do with the power of a God? I'm just not clear on the question.

You disagree with the status quo of relative good or relative evil. You disagree with the accountability for doing good or breaking bad. So what is your alternative?

Do you believe in faith? Do you believe people are responsible for their actions? That they have rights? Do you believe in morality? In being rewarded even if it is by a feeling of fulfilment for doing good? Do you believe that people should be held accountable if they do wrong? That they should compensate or repent or show remorse? What is your position on issues of ethics and morality? What is it based on?

Are these notions equally valid as your own?

[iceaura]

So lets see, I like Islam because its philosophy is agreeable to me. Other religions to me are not equally valid because there are points in their theology that are either irrational, racist or immoral to me, as a person.

Why did you choose an agreeable version of Islam, and disagreeable versions of all the others?

There are, for example, other expressions of Buddhist philosophy - your insistence on one you find silly could have been replicated, in its effect, among the varieties of Islamic philosophy. But you chose otherwise.

While your opinion of religious people goes something like this:

One man with the truth is a majority. Or are there other aspects to the situation?

[S.A.M.]

Why did you choose an agreeable version of Islam, and disagreeable versions of all the others?

Same reason I prefer one political system over another or one genre of movie over another. A matter of personal philosophy.

There are, for example, other expressions of Buddhist philosophy

Are there any expressions of Buddhist philosophy where life is not dukka and the path to nirvana is not attained by detachment of the senses? If you eliminate the four noble truths, is it still Buddhism?

I have many other philosophical arguments against Buddhism [and I have elaborated them in depth on sciforums in discussions about Buddhist philosophy], but its basically an unrealistic religion. Its probably why it appeals to people who live in their minds rather than in society, a religion for escapists/idealists. Not strange considering Siddharth himself [another composite fictional character whose Pali texts came 600 years after he allegedly died] arrived at it to escape age, sickness and death by running away from the responsibilities of home and family. When I feel like escaping reality, I watch movies or read fiction. Its not what I would consider a philosophy to base life on. For me, Islam is a religion for those who live in society, its a pragmatic religion, one which any rational person can follow with ease and also with a sense of adventure. You can even do self denial for a month every year if you want to feel like a Buddhist

[Café Cappuccino]

You can even do self denial for a month every year if you want to feel like a Buddhist

That's why I'm inclined to becoming a Jedi. I still haven't gotten the telekinesis part. Although I have been progressing at making people run away with the power of my wide-eyed stare (()). The Force is strong with me.

[StrawDog]

Islamism doesn't equal Islam.

Indeed, as Zionism does not equal Judaism.

In other words people can't practice harmless religious expression? Why can't a woman were hijab when it it's wajib in her faith? How is a fucking headscarf harming anyone? Not only that, how is a cross necklace hurting anyone? I mean come on. I can understand this "seperation of church and state," but this ban on religious "paraphenalia," that is harmless and that (as in the case of European states trying to ban both the burqa and hijab) is wajib to their faith. In my opinion that is totally intolerant and doesn't reflect the the freedom that Western democracies preach and jack off about.

Agreed. IMO the core issue (hijab) is a knee jerk xenophobic reaction to growing Muslim populations in Western nations, which of course originated in knee jerk overcompensation for the sins of Colonialism.

Lots of "Isms" here.

[StrawDog]

I
What do you mean by "Why can't a woman were hijab when it it's wajib in her faith?". This is nonsensical. Just becuase something is allowed or required in a religion doesn't mean it should be allowed or required by an enlightened society. Backwards is backwards, and societies protect people even from their own retrograde beliefs.

Arguably, an enlightened society would view symbolic expressions of faith as inconsequential.

Anyway... The hijab is a form of oppression EVEN if it is willed.

And here we have the mythic misunderstanding constructed by the Western worldview.

Democratic societies have always had forms of restraining behavior, yes, including willed behavior. Rational freedom does not include license for whatever that tickles your fancy.

Does wearing a cross on a chain constitute "rational freedom"?

But it's not only that, it's also the barbaric sharia law. Of course, that is only an extreme example.

This is an interesting point. To the extent that Western society and its love of excess baulks at Sharia law, yet does not bat an eyelid at the likes of Gitmo, this notion is telling.

All laws based on irrational belief systems are a scourge on humanity.

However, I agree with this.

[GeoffP]

Same reason I prefer one political system over another or one genre of movie over another. A matter of personal philosophy.

Not actually the answer to the question.

[S.A.M.]

Not actually the answer to the question.

I'm incredibly curious. Do tell. What is the answer to the question if not a matter of personal philosophy?

What, in your opinion, would better suit my personal philosophy, since you seem so sure?

[Michael]

So lets see, I like Islam because its philosophy is agreeable to me. Other religions to me are not equally valid because there are points in their theology that are either irrational, racist or immoral to me, as a person. e.g. I think Buddhism is ridiculous because the basis of its philosophy is that all life is suffering and you need to "let go" of everything that makes you "suffer" to reach a state of mind where nothing touches you.

This is your definition of "intolerance"

While your opinion of religious people goes something like this:


source

Yes, and WASP White Supremacism agrees with Neo-Nazi skinheads. So? Personal or not, it's still intolerant bullshit. Funny thing is, Skinheads similarly think the good should be rewarded in an afterlife and the bad should be punished. Just like you SAM. Just like Buddhists. Most superstitious people think this. This is interesting isn't? It seems that the idea of an afterlife can whereby one is punished for doing bad in this life, or rewarded for doing good in this life, can be taught WITH or WITHOUT the intolerance baggage. So? Why carry the intolerant baggage?

You do NOT need ONLY One God, ONLY One True Book, ONLY One Last Prophet to teach ideas about doing good and not doing bad. People do NOT need to die in order to learn the lesson of doing good and not doing bad. I wonder, why is it you gravitate towards intolerance? Is it simply because with One God, One Book, One Prophet you can take your thinking cap off and feel at ease knowing someone a long time ago did the thinking for you - and shoved it in your head? As you're a Scientist, maybe you need a break from thinking too much?

Also, I'm not Buddhist. It may be flawed. The point is, it teaches the same thing: do good, don't do bad, and does so without the intolerant baggage. If society progresses, people will be more inclined towards Buddhist-like religion. Expect a sharp incline in the Buddhist-like forms of Islam while traditional Islam does a death from 10000 cuts. Which is something we both can think is great


It seems the question is: Why do some people feel the need for intolerance in their belief system? What's so comfortable with having NOT the need to question??? Maybe that's why some of us aren't able to be religious?

[S.A.M.]

Yes, and WASP White Supremacism agrees with Neo-Nazi skinheads.

Exactly, that is some peoples personal philosophy. Now you understand - after all you did describe Orthodox Jews.

[Michael]

And your point?

[Michael]

Do you, at the very least, agree that you do not need the memes: ONLY One God, ONLY One True Book, ONLY One Last Prophet to teach ideas about doing good and not doing bad. It's possible to bypass these meme's and still teach the exact same fundamental idea about correct social behaviors and incorrect behaviors???

[S.A.M.]

Do you, at the very least, agree that you do not need the memes: ONLY One God, ONLY One True Book, ONLY One Last Prophet

Aren't you the one promoting the equality and validity of all beliefs? So this "meme" is equal in your opinion, to any other and you should be promoting it as a belief of equal validity. Other people may disagree with you and say its the ONLY valid belief. But as someone who embraces all beliefs as equally valid, you have to embrace these people as equally valid too. Makes you somewhat indeterminate in your value system and beliefs, but as they are all equal to you, there is no value system or belief to worry about, is there? Its not like you stand for any particular belief over all others.

[Michael]

Aren't you the one promoting the equality and validity of all beliefs? So this "meme" is equal in your opinion, to any other and you should be promoting it as a belief of equal validity. Other people may disagree with you and say its the ONLY valid belief. But as someone who embraces all beliefs as equally valid, you have to embrace these people as equally valid too. Makes you somewhat indeterminate in your value system and beliefs, but as they are all equal to you, there is no value system or belief to worry about, is there? Its not like you stand for any particular belief over all others.

Yes, that is a very different question from what I am asking.

Yes, One God, One Book, One Prophet is as valid as my idea: No God, No True Revelation, No Prophets. They are both equally as valid as one another. It may be that the Christians are correct: there is One God and the Bible is the Only True Revelation and Jesus is the Messiah. Or not.

What's your hangup SAM? Is it really that hard to grasp? I mean, this is why you're here with all of us who are atheist isn't it?!? To think forbidden thoughts.....

[Michael]

Now that I have answered your question, please do me the great pleasure of answering mine.

Do you, at the very least, agree that you do not need the memes: ONLY One God, ONLY One True Book, ONLY One Last Prophet to teach ideas about doing good and not doing bad. It's possible to bypass these meme's and still teach the exact same fundamental idea about correct social behaviors and incorrect behaviors???

[S.A.M.]

My answer is obvious. Look out the window. Clearly there are many people out there who are not monotheists. Like political ideologies I don't have to endorse beliefs I consider invalid. Nazism is a valid political ideology for white supremacists. A "Jewish democracy" [haha] is a valid ideology for Zionists. Is it valid for me? Nope. But its valid for them.

It's possible to bypass these meme's and still teach the exact same fundamental idea about correct social behaviors and incorrect behaviors???

In a different context. To Kali worshippers, child sacrifice [ie chopping limbs] is good. To high caste Hindus, untouchability is good. Is that also "doing good and not doing bad" for you? Do you consider them valid beliefs?