Everyday sexism

[paddoboy]

paddoboy:


Did you even bother reading posts #46, #47, #48, #50 and #51?

What's wrong with you that you can't bring yourself to address any of what I wrote there, instead restricting yourself to responding to a post that I addressed to somebody else?

Umm, because you told me to the effect to butt out or else?

You need to face up to your own behaviour, not make apologies for michael.

I'm not making any apologies for Michael, he's big enough and ugly enough to look after himself.
I could ask, why are you trying to deter people from supporting me.?

So what?

Your sexism is okay because you're friendly with two workers at your local club?

Your wrong, it's not sexism.

Why do you keep bringing up all these irrelevancies, while ignoring almost all of the substantive points I've put up for your consideration?

They are not irrelevant and the points you make are simply excuses and what ifs.

Stop trying to distract and address the matters that have been raised. You started off getting all huffy over my initial one-line comment pointing out your sexism, but now you apparently won't touch any of the reasons I have put to you with a barge pole. Why is that?

I'm as cute and as calm as a cucumber James...I finally have learnt its best way to deal with some people. Is that what's troubling you?

Why don't you respond to wegs' question?

I agree with some of what wegs says, other points no. I don't respond because she is a lady and I generally avoid conflict with females. Is that also sexist James?

I'm in Victoria. Are you telling me you're going to shout me an interstate flight etc. just to prove that people at your club think you're a good bloke? You'd do better to apologise to all the women you may have offended in the past, and promise to try to be better in future.

Wrong...I said I would pay half...and you could also meet with My Mrs and the next door neightbour who addresses me as Love...as well as the two bar attendants.
And I don't need to prove anything James, I was trying to show you a path to reality if you wanted it.

 

[paddoboy]

I missed this:


Why should they need to have to object?

Because you posed the question.

In other words, why not just do the right thing in the first place?

I'm no Angel but I always try and do the right thing, in all situations.

Do you have any understanding of why a woman might not object to strange man calling her "love", even if if it makes her uncomfortable?

Yep, but that's not the case.

I don't think you are capable of putting yourself in somebody else's shoes. You're way too self-absorbed. If a woman went out of her way to avoid you, I don't think you've even notice.

Likewise you are not qualified to fabricate what you believe anyone else would or should do.

 

[James R]

paddoboy:

Umm, because you told me to the effect to butt out or else?

That's not what I told you, and I'm not about to repeat myself. You can go back and read it again if you like.

What is clear is that you're responding very selectively, avoiding all the hard questions and trying to straw man your way out of trouble. It's not working out well for you.

I could ask, why are you trying to deter people from supporting me.?

The only people who will support you on this will be other sexist men. I'm as happy to take them to task as I am to take you to task. It's not about you. Well, it's not just about you. It's the sexism that's the problem. You're not the only man who has sexist attitudes and behaviours. I'm quite sure you're far from being the worst example of a sexist man. But neither of those facts excuses you or any supporters who might want to make excuses on your behalf.

Your wrong, it's not sexism.

There's no getting through to you, obviously. Maybe in a few years it will suddenly hit you. Who knows? Or maybe you'll stay like this for the rest of your life.

They are not irrelevant and the points you make are simply excuses and what ifs.

If they were relevant, as you claim, you could explain how they were relevant. The fact that you do not speaks for itself.

Also, nice attempt there to wave away everything I've said to you, but it's not working for you. You either need to engage honestly, or stop. Your current approach is just digging a deeper hole for yourself.

I'm as cute and as calm as a cucumber James...I finally have learnt its best way to deal with some people. Is that what's troubling you?

It troubles me when people are so pig headed and wound up in themselves that they won't take responsibility for their own wrongdoing, even after it is clearly explained to them. I wish they could take their egos out of it for moment, drop the defensive bluster and actually look honestly at what has been put to them. I think that, on this forum in this kind of discussion, I've seen that happen about once or twice in the last 20 years. The much more common response that I've seen is to keep doubling down on the initial error, until the offender either decides to disappear from the discussion or else blow his lid and run away shouting personal insults over his shoulder.

I agree with some of what wegs says, other points no.

How obfuscatory of you.

I don't respond because she is a lady and I generally avoid conflict with females. Is that also sexist James?

Very probably, yes. The underlying attitude I see is a lack of respect for a woman who replied to you and asked you reasonable questions. You feel free to ignore her because she's a woman. You don't feel the need to assert your macho male superiority over her as you do over your male opponents, because you assume that she is already automatically inferior to you on account of her sex. You think you don't have to establish alpha male status with her, but that it's very important for you to attempt to do so when you're interacting with other males.

And I don't need to prove anything James, I was trying to show you a path to reality if you wanted it.

I'm well aware that the reality is that there is no shortage of sexist men out there, even now in the 21st century. Things are getting better, but it's literally taking decades to move the needle on everyday sexism. I think it's probably a generational thing. Men like you are so set in their ways that the world will probably need to wait for you to die to see more progression on treating all people with equal respect. Hopefully your children will do better than you did. Hopefully they will not model their behaviours on yours.

I'm no Angel but I always try and do the right thing, in all situations.

"Sorry billvon, arse up... .... But yes I also often use the phrase and will continue."

 

[Thus Spoke]

What do you think?

I think that it’s evasive to reflect the question back to the questioner.

If you’re unable to answer the question then you are unable to make the charge of sexism.

 

[DaveC426913]

I think that it’s evasive to reflect the question back to the questioner.

If you’re unable to answer the question then you are unable to make the charge of sexism.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here : That question of yours wasn't about you asking to be educated by James R about 'the decisiveness of women';

it was about a view you have, and an argument you plan to present. And it's incomplete.

James R is simply giving you the opportunity to complete your argument.

 

[James R]

Thus Spoke:

I think that it’s evasive to reflect the question back to the questioner.

I think that in posing the question you have less than pure motives. But we can both give our opinions.

You asked "Are women more indecisive than men?"

My feeling is that the answer is "No, they aren't." I haven't seen any studies on this and am not aware of any evidence that would contradict my view. Moreover, I think it is dangerous to generalise about "all women" or "all men", since it is far more likely that the variance among individual men and women will be far greater than any average difference, if one exists at all. In other words, even if, say, men are more indecisive than women on average, there will still most likely be a large proportion of men who are less indecisive than the "average" woman.

Now it's your turn. Share your wisdom with me, Thus Spoke.

If you’re unable to answer the question then you are unable to make the charge of sexism.

Clearly I am able to answer the question. Was there anything else you needed?

 

[foghorn]

Sorry, maybe you could elaborate. I know what a strawman is, else I wouldn't have invoked it. I'm not sure if you're agreeing or disagreeing with my assignation.

Why stand up a strawman to be knocked down, when you could do the same with an aunt sally.

The term Aunt Sally is a synonym for a straw man fallacy, whereby an argument or idea is misrepresented so as to make it easier to refute

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aunt_Sally

You got something against men??

 

[DaveC426913]

Why stand up a strawman to be knocked down, when you could do the same with an aunt sally.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aunt_Sally
You got something against men??

Heh. That's new to me.
Now if only we had a gender-neutral phrase...

 

[wegs]

Recently read an article about “benevolent sexism,” which basically is a paternal or patronizing attitude among men towards women, but done in subtle ways such as calling women cutesy names instead of their actual name etc. (if you don’t know their name, men shouldn’t resort to calling strangers of the opposite sex “honey” and “babe.”)

I can see where this “type” of sexism can usher in other forms of sexism - because it’s subtle. Almost normalizing it and like any slippery slope, other more latent forms of sexism take shape.

Paddoboy, while you might not see your calling of strangers “love,” a problem, it sort of perpetuates sexism in subtle ways. I wouldn’t pretend to know why you refer to women as “love” - maybe you altruistically believe you’re being friendly, but sometimes there’s a bigger picture that our behaviors lead to.

Lack of women commenting that it offends them, doesn't mean they ''like'' it. I get the sense that you'd stop completely, if women were to share with you that it belittles them, so maybe you take their silence and friendly smile, as acceptance?

 

[exchemist]

Are women more indecisive than men?

Er, I'm not sure.

 

[sculptor]

, men shouldn’t resort to calling strangers of the opposite sex ... “babe.”)

recently
(I think at the animal hospital)
after a woman gave me some information i wanted, I said "thanks babe"
then apologized for that word
and she said: "That's ok, I actually like it"

..............................................................................
(I ain't completely confused yet, but I am working in it.)

 

[wegs]

recently
(I think at the animal hospital)
after a woman gave me some information i wanted, I said "thanks babe"
then apologized for that word
and she said: "That's ok, I actually like it"

..............................................................................
(I ain't completely confused yet, but I am working in it.)

Not every woman will feel belittled, but some might. Best not to assume that every woman will ''like it.'' But, just curious...what motivates you to call a stranger, ''babe?'' Like, why not just reply with ''thank you?'' Every action we take comes from something motivating it - do you view it as flirting? Is it so some women see you a certain way? (I'm not judging you as though you need scolding, I'm genuinely curious.)

 

[exchemist]

recently
(I think at the animal hospital)
after a woman gave me some information i wanted, I said "thanks babe"
then apologized for that word
and she said: "That's ok, I actually like it"

..............................................................................
(I ain't completely confused yet, but I am working in it.)

The apology puts you in the clear. Quite a few women, including my late wife, would have resented being called babe quite strongly.

 

[Thus Spoke]

Thus Spoke:
I haven't seen any studies on this and am not aware of any evidence that would contradict my view.

Then you haven’t looked because there are countless studies regarding gender differences in decision making.

Er, I'm not sure.

Either way, we should ask ourselves why we value rash decisions over quality decisions.

Must be a female Alien...can't make up her bloody mind!

I hope so, because if not, that’s one hell of a probe.

As Simon de Beauvoir pointed out, men define women relative to them, and more often than not, women represent the negative. Most insults directed towards other men are traits that are normally associated with women.

Men make jokes about out-groups to bond with other men when they’re feeling insecure, but as you’ve just experienced, making rash decisions can undermine your long-term goals, even if you have the best intentions.

A Christian group just tore down the one in California while shouting “Christ is King,” with the out-group being aliens from Mexico or outer space.

Perhaps it’s testosterone that can make someone feel bold enough to lead a group, but at the same time reduce their ability to lead well.

“Christ is king in this country. We don’t want illegal aliens from Mexico or outer space,” a man in the video says. “So, let’s tear this bitch down.”

https://streamable.com/1sngc0

 

[wegs]

As mentioned above, another elephant in the room when it comes to these topics, is that women who (seem to) accept all kinds of ''references'' to get their attention, etc have also been conditioned to believing that ''men will be men,'' and that's it's futile to make a big deal about it or we come across as a bitch if we don't go along with men's idea of socializing. Same with sexual assault, rape, etc. ''But, she seemed to like it,'' or ''she didn't stop me,'' are also common phrases rapists say when justifying their assaults against women.

That said, I'm not suggesting even in the slightest way, that anyone's comments on this forum towards women border rape - but, I'm just pointing out that assuming women like it because they're silent, or smile and say they like it, isn't a good rule of thumb in convincing yourself that how you talk to women isn't demeaning. (This isn't to say sculptor, that the woman you mentioned above didn't ''like it,'' but she might feel that any other response to a guy, wouldn't be worth it.)

 

[billvon]

recently
(I think at the animal hospital)
after a woman gave me some information i wanted, I said "thanks babe"
then apologized for that word
and she said: "That's ok, I actually like it"

That's great that you apologized and she explained. If such communication happened more often we'd see a lot fewer problems. Consent is key.

 

[wegs]

That's great that you apologized and she explained. If such communication happened more often we'd see a lot fewer problems. Consent is key.

It’s great to apologize but if he does it again and again, apologizing every time ...that’s not so great. The entire exchange is unnecessary. lol

 

[paddoboy]

I can see where this “type” of sexism can usher in other forms of sexism - because it’s subtle. Almost normalizing it and like any slippery slope, other more latent forms of sexism take shape.

Paddoboy, while you might not see your calling of strangers “love,” a problem, it sort of perpetuates sexism in subtle ways. I wouldn’t pretend to know why you refer to women as “love” - maybe you altruistically believe you’re being friendly, but sometimes there’s a bigger picture that our behaviors lead to.

wegsy [is that OK ] I call them Love because in most cases I don't know there name. I find it far less formal and natural then saying, " excuse me Maam" which is sort of an Americanism, or " Hey you!" or " excuse me Lady" the same I guess, is why they [women] find it less formal to address me and other men in the same situation as " hey man" or "excuse me Mr" You see James seems to want to sweep under the carpet that it is common banter on both sides of the agenda.
In saying that wegs, I can understand where you are coming from. As you say [or infer] there are some arseholes out there of both sexes, but really irrespective of any effort to eliminate even the most "subtle" of remarks, like "love" It won't eliminate these arseholes. You know that, James knows that. They exist and always will. We can't remove all cars off the road because of a minority of drunken hoons that cause accidents and mayhem. All we do is make rules to help contain them.

We have a " movement" now in Australia, whenever a news report is on with regards to sexual assaults, or assaults in general, a piece immediatley after the news item to phone a certain number if you have experiences sexual or other abuse...A great initiative!
I know James will immediatley employ his " so what" dialogue here, but really wegs, I have never hit a woman and never will...I have never even told a woman to go and get stuffed or similar...I stand up [still] on a bus or train for women even at my ripe old age, not because I see them as inferior, but because women are different1 [at least I hope so] and I respect that difference...we have women's Rugby League in Australia now, and they hit each other near as hard as the blokes do...but we don't have the women playing the men...why? because that difference does [thankfully] exist.
James again likes to pretend that women simply accept these little subtleties because they have grown used to them...that may be the case in certain quarters but certainly not the case in all.

Let me again say that this type of casual banter exists in society and is in near all cases harmless banter, that both genders partake in and which means absolutely nothing sexually oriented towards the person being addressed. It's as natural as me saying please, or thank you.

Lack of women commenting that it offends them, doesn't mean they ''like'' it. I get the sense that you'd stop completely, if women were to share with you that it belittles them, so maybe you take their silence and friendly smile, as acceptance?

Yes, accepted, some women may not like it and simply accept it, but please, give me some credit that I know the women in the cases I have mentioned, and really wegs, if I even noticed the most subtle look in any female I addressed as love, that they were displeased with the term, they would not have to ask me to desist...I would automatically desist.
But again, that generally speaking is not the case.
On the remark itself..."it must be a female Alien: she can't make up her mind" that seemed to have initially upset James...have you checked out the thread that this debacle was split from? Did you notice the frivolity that the remark was made in....you know, a monolith [2001 like] mysteriously appears in the desert...bloody Aliens!! then mysteriously disappears!!! bloody Aliens again, and the frivolous comments made and joking [the UFO nuts being the butt of the joke] and then my comment finally in similar jocular fashion.

I really don't know what else to say except that I totally reject all James' accusations, name callings and insinuations.
My other thoughts wegs? I believe this is a set up of sorts.
I was expected to blow my top after the allegations and name calling, as I did previously. That didn't and won't happen.

In summing wegs, I'm not in anyway a sexist or a misogynist and could relate many factual episodes in my life supporting that. But that too, would be met with disdain and more accusations of skiting and ego building by one or two of my little enemies here.
And I certainly do not see calling someone love [be it from a man or woman] in the vast majority of cases is a sexualised comment.

 

[wegs]

wegsy [is that OK ] I call them Love because in most cases I don't know there name. I find it far less formal and natural then saying, " excuse me Maam" which is sort of an Americanism, or " Hey you!" or " excuse me Lady" the same I guess, is why they [women] find it less formal to address me and other men in the same situation as " hey man" or "excuse me Mr" You see James seems to want to sweep under the carpet that it is common banter on both sides of the agenda.
In saying that wegs, I can understand where you are coming from. As you say [or infer] there are some arseholes out there of both sexes, but really irrespective of any effort to eliminate even the most "subtle" of remarks, like "love" It won't eliminate these arseholes. You know that, James knows that. They exist and always will. We can't remove all cars off the road because of a minority of drunken hoons that cause accidents and mayhem. All we do is make rules to help contain them.

We have a " movement" now in Australia, whenever a news report is on with regards to sexual assaults, or assaults in general, a piece immediatley after the news item to phone a certain number if you have experiences sexual or other abuse...A great initiative!
I know James will immediatley employ his " so what" dialogue here, but really wegs, I have never hit a woman and never will...I have never even told a woman to go and get stuffed or similar...I stand up [still] on a bus or train for women even at my ripe old age, not because I see them as inferior, but because women are different1 [at least I hope so] and I respect that difference...we have women's Rugby League in Australia now, and they hit each other near as hard as the blokes do...but we don't have the women playing the men...why? because that difference does [thankfully] exist.
James again likes to pretend that women simply accept these little subtleties because they have grown used to them...that may be the case in certain quarters but certainly not the case in all.

Let me again say that this type of casual banter exists in society and is in near all cases harmless banter, that both genders partake in and which means absolutely nothing sexually oriented towards the person being addressed. It's as natural as me saying please, or thank you.


Yes, accepted, some women may not like it and simply accept it, but please, give me some credit that I know the women in the cases I have mentioned, and really wegs, if I even noticed the most subtle look in any female I addressed as love, that they were displeased with the term, they would not have to ask me to desist...I would automatically desist.
But again, that generally speaking is not the case.
On the remark itself..."it must be a female Alien: she can't make up her mind" that seemed to have initially upset James...have you checked out the thread that this debacle was split from? Did you notice the frivolity that the remark was made in....you know, a monolith [2001 like] mysteriously appears in the desert...bloody Aliens!! then mysteriously disappears!!! bloody Aliens again, and the frivolous comments made and joking [the UFO nuts being the butt of the joke] and then my comment finally in similar jocular fashion.

I really don't know what else to say except that I totally reject all James' accusations, name callings and insinuations.
My other thoughts wegs? I believe this is a set up of sorts.
I was expected to blow my top after the allegations and name calling, as I did previously. That didn't and won't happen.

In summing wegs, I'm not in anyway a sexist or a misogynist and could relate many factual episodes in my life supporting that. But that too, would be met with disdain and more accusations of skiting and ego building by one or two of my little enemies here.
And I certainly do not see calling someone love [be it from a man or woman] in the vast majority of cases is a sexualised comment.

You can call me wegsy. lol I’ll return to comment, later.

I’ll leave with these comments though - I don’t get the sense that you’re malicious at all or misogynistic. But as mentioned above, many women go along with things to not rock the boat, when it comes to men making comments, so while you don’t see the problem with it (because you’re just being friendly) they may take it another way. (Especially if you’re a customer of theirs) But, then you make the joke on here about women (aliens) and now it’s not just a question of you being friendly by referring to women as “love,” etc., but more of a pattern forming that shows how you see women. I don’t know you paddoboy, and you’ve always been kind to me on here. But I’m just chiming in to help you see others’ points.

Standing up on the bus for women is a nice gesture. One might categorize it as chivalrous, a word that can be controversial at times. Some women might like it but others may find it patronizing, you know? If it’s well received, then that’s good. If you’re arguing with a woman to give her your seat because you want to appear chivalrous, not so good.

 

[DaveC426913]

Standing up on the bus for women is a nice gesture. One might categorize it as chivalrous, a word that can be controversial at times.

Indeed. I caught a faceful of flak here on his forum for mentioning smiling while holding a door open for a woman. I argued it was technically a sexist act (since I might not have smiled at a man), yet did not constitute misogyny.