Is faith a reliable path to knowledge?

Write4U said:
I don't prejudge your capacity for learning as you expressly accused me of........difference!
Jan Ardena said,
I did no such thing. I was curious as to how you know things that are not within the capacity for humans to know.
But it is you who has irrevocably made up your mind. How is it that you know that which is beyond the capacity for humans to know? You are claiming you do.

Hubris, another form of Pride!

Now I have made a judgment of your capacity for learning. You do not have it.
 
That you are not interested in an honest discussion of how the mind produces thoughts and how these thoughts can lead you to believe things that are not true.

I didn't say I wasn't interested in a discussion (why it should any less than honest makes no sense), I just want to know how it ties in with our discussion. You seem reluctant to explain.

What are you doing here at all, if you dismiss everyone else's perspectives..

I'm allowed to dismiss perspectives in a discussion. You don't seem reluctant to dismiss my perspectives, and you don't see me crying into my beer.

If you cannot give me the courtesy of taking 15 minutes to watch a presentation by a neuroscientist, why should I give you the courtesy of taking you seriously?

What is it relevant to? We're talking about faith, and how it works. It applies to everyone, including the neuro-scientists. The little bit I watched had nothing to do with the discussion. Or if it does, then you need to put it into context.

You are the one who is unable to define your perspective of your mental hallucinations.

I see. We're at ad-hominem hotel.

Ok, if it makes you happy, stay in your hallucination.

Atheist dogma. You all end up there eventually.

Jan.
 
But it is you who has irrevocably made up your mind. How is it that you know that which is beyond the capacity for humans to know? You are claiming you do.

Either that or we know everything. And that is a tall order. Even for an elitist.

Now I have made a judgment of your capacity for learning. You do not have it.

Really?

You obviously don't realise your ownhypocrisy.

Do you have a personality disorder?

Jan.
 
In furtherance of post #680.
Almost all living things have the capacity to perceive and react to environmental values and functions.

Flowers employ Heliotropism
Slime Mold has a sense of Time.
Chameleons can precisely triangulate the Distance of its prey.
Lemurs can subconsciously Count (knowing the difference between more and less)
Octopi can solve Complex (compound) problems
The list is endless.

To me, this would indicate that these natural mathematical functions are pervasive and persistent, at least on earth and every living organism has the capacity to use them as they relate to their specific form of existence.
 
Last edited:
I'm not ideologically committed to atheism,

I'm not ideologically committed to breathing, or drinking water, so I know what you mean.

I have no choice. I have to consider the evidence, which is absent or illegitimate.

Of course it's absent. That's why you're atheist. Your whole thought process is atheist, and all that atheist entails.
Someone who is blind from birth can only perceive from a blind perspective. No matter how evidence of the seeing world they may obtain. So you are atheist first, and because you are atheist, there can be no evidence. The idea of needing evidence to show God, is an atheist one, hailing from the perspective. It is the very yoke that prevents them from God-realisation.

Of course your going to remark, there is no evidence for God, so I am assuming God. Remember, this is all your own perspective. But what you have effectively done, is to keep yourself convinced that God does not exist.
You're in a loop.

Your arguments are textbook special pleading fallacies.

And so loop, loops on.

Jan.
 
Well, if you tried conversing with me instead of others it could be constructive.

Are you even familiar with what I said?

No I'm no familiar, which is my point.
If you explain what you meant, instead of playing games, I will converse with you, as much as you like.

Jan.
 
Oh, and, if you're so caught up in your beliefs why don't you cheer innocent people dying by terrorists?

Or do you already?
 
Last edited:
Did you hear Jan talking about himself? Listen to what he said.
"Either that or we know everything. And that is a tall order. Even for an elitist."
Pete,
"Really?"
John,
"He obviously doesn't realize his own hypocrisy."
Bill,
"Does he have a personality disorder?"

Who knows?
mocantina.gif
 
Last edited:
''Hope'' is a force. It's more than just wanting something, it is a real desire for something, or for something to occur.
Yes, hope is not just wanting. It's more like really really wanting, like a lot. Like "I hope it doesn't rain when we have our parade."

There's no guarantee that something that is hoped for will actually come to pass. That's the thing about hope. I hope that it doesn't rain on my parade, but rain remains a possibility nonetheless. Wishing, even really really wishing, like a lot, won't stave off the rain. The rain is beyond our control. Either it will rain, or it won't.

Most things we hope for, are unknown, and unseen to us.
The outcome is uncertain. I hope I get a toy train for Christmas. It might happen, or it might not. I know which toy train I really really want, but that won't help me to get it. Nagging my parents might help, but that wouldn't be relying on hope alone. It might have something to do with faith, in the sense of trusting.

Someone may hope to be president some day, I'm sure we all hope to be happy, and content. To strive toward those goals of hope, is to have faith that you can achieve these outcomes.
No, I don't think so, unless by "faith" you mean merely that you have a kind of trust in your own capacities and ability to work towards the goals you set for yourself. But in that sense, "faith" is more like a place-holder for "confidence".

Religious faith is no different. The adherent aspires to go to heaven, or to be with, or merge into God. So the adherent follows the principles of his religion in the hope of becoming qualified.
I agree that there are some parallels, from the point of view of the religiously faithful. Those who proclaim religious faith would no doubt tell us that they trust in God, they hope to get to heaven to be with God, that they trust that God will let them into heaven if they follow the precepts of the religion, and on and and so forth.

But, the outcome of religious faith is even less guaranteed than the outcoming of hoping it won't rain on your parade. That's because the whole foundation of the trust, the hope, the "faith", is built on unstable ground. What if there is no God at all? What if heaven doesn't exist? Then you're hoping for an impossible outcome. You're trusting an imaginary person. And your confidence is misconceived.

I know that it could rain on my parade. I know that it is possible that it won't. It might be perfectly reasonable for me to hope for the desired outcome: no rain. But nobody knows that God exists. Not really. So hoping that God will solve your problems for you, or provide benefits for you could well be a wasted effort.

Once again, though, I think we're diverging from where I started with this thread topic, so let me attempt to bring it back once again.

Believers tell us that this "faith" they have is the "substance of things hoped for". It's as if wishing, hoping or having enough confidence in the concept of God will somehow instantiate that concept and guarantee the hoped-for God's actual existence.

And maybe if I just hope hard enough, the toy train of my dreams will appear under the Christmas tree.
 
Yes, hope is not just wanting. It's more like really really wanting, like a lot. Like "I hope it doesn't rain when we have our parade."

I would prefer it not to rain, is generally what people mean. "I Wish It Wouldn't Rain" is a well known hook for songs, and that's about the size of that hope.

There's no guarantee that something that is hoped for will actually come to pass. That's the thing about hope.

That's obvious. What's your point?

The outcome is uncertain. I hope I get a toy train for Christmas. It might happen, or it might not. I know which toy train I really really want, but that won't help me to get it.

You keep making these obvious points.
What do you think I'm referring to?

No, I don't think so, unless by "faith" you mean merely that you have a kind of trust in your own capacities and ability to work towards the goals you set for yourself. But in that sense, "faith" is more like a place-holder for "confidence".

Okay, now we're getting somewhere.
"Faith" is the combination of everything, including how you go about achieving that goal.

Going back to the thread title. Faith helps to break down the barriers of what you think you can't achieve, if you have the strength to percevere. It allows you to gain knowledge you didn't have before, by being exposed to it.

If one simply sits down and wishes something to materialise, as you seem to be implying, one will receive exactly, the results of one's actions. Presumably, if one thinks something can simply materialise by wishing it. It follows that one knows how it can be done, and will work toward achievement.

But, the outcome of religious faith is even less guaranteed than the outcoming of hoping it won't rain on your parade.

It is "less guaranteed" because you are atheist. The whole notion of guarantee, is due to being atheist.

That's because the whole foundation of the trust, the hope, the "faith", is built on unstable ground.

What is unstable about it?

What if there is no God at all?

You think like that because you are atheist. You already do not accept, or believe that God even exists. As such you have no choice but ask these kinds of questions, or have serious doubts.

The problem is, you think you're position is right, and anything that contradicts it, is wrong. So you won't entertain the idea that you are currently incapable of comprehending God.

Then you're hoping for an impossible outcome. You're trusting an imaginary person. And your confidence is misconceived.

Theist don't think in that way, because it is obvious that God exist.
I accept that for you, God does not exist.
You need to start accepting that your atheism is your reality, and stop trying to make it everyones.

But nobody knows that God exists.

You don't know that God exists.
That's all you can know for sure.

Believers tell us that this "faith" they have is the "substance of things hoped for". It's as if wishing, hoping or having enough confidence in the concept of God will somehow instantiate that concept and guarantee the hoped-for God's actual existence.

Theists already believe in God.
Atheists don't know what that even means.
What you say is your perception, not mine.

And maybe if I just hope hard enough, the toy train of my dreams will appear under the Christmas tree.

Again, this is an atheist concept. It doesn't hold, because there is no comprehension of what or who God is.

Jan.
 
No, it's rationalist. Internal evidence, i.e. feeling an experience of god, cannot be trusted, because perceptions cannot be trusted.

An atheist trying to explain how a theist comprehends God? Very amusing indeed.

The reality is, an atheist has no idea of God. So theists, don't be fooled into thinking they do.

Jan.
 
An atheist trying to explain how a theist comprehends God? Very amusing indeed.
Amazingly, a single person can hold both views over the course of their lifetime, so we already know you are most likely delusional when you claim special theist knowledge. At least you can't argue your case if held to a rational standard.
 
Back
Top