The psychology of atheists and theists

Discussion in 'Religion' started by James R, Aug 31, 2018.

  1. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    You need to look that up perhaps using books on the subject yhat are scientific rather than religious.
    You have convinced yourself there is a creator.
    I really cant answer that but will avoid making up an unsupported answer.
    Just because I have found the best answer does not mean I have all the answers. Look at the mess religion finds itself in because it makes up answers.
    All we need to know is an eternal universe is most probable and seems there is evidence in support.
    That is what theists seem to say without realising it.
    If god is eternal he must have existed forever and then at a point came out of eternity after how long, billions trillions zillions of or actually an infinite passing of time to create our universe.
    That is what theists say although they dont realise such I expect.

    Must go I will continue later if I am able.
    Alex
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2018
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  3. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

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    So if you put a grenade in a cup of just enough water to stop it spilling over, and allow the grenade to go off. You’re tells by me you will be able to recoup the water that was originally from n the cup?

    Jan.
     
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  5. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

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    2 questions.

    Do you kill?
    Do you know anybody who does not kill?
    Obviously excluding small babies, and people who never walked; or move around.

    Jan.
     
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  7. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    What does my ability to reconstitute the dispersed water have to do with anything?
    No you used "annihilate".
    Perhaps you meant to use another word?
     
  8. Musika Last in Space Valued Senior Member

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    But you see, just a moment ago you were talking about religion and society. Despite anyone's take on the reality/falsity, per se, of God, that is a subject that involves tangible categories (God, institution and social identity and application), all of which have historical backgrounds and so on. Just as this was (again) being brought to your attention, you (again) switched to your ideas of "well God doesn't exist anyway", as if this somehow compensates for your lack of coherence or comprehension of history. Once again, this is not a platform for a theist to challenge an atheist, it is the platform for discussion. Even other atheists here have brought this to your attention more than once.

    You may feel rhat because God is a useless idea, there is no need to look at the history and the philosophy. This tact, however, does not strengthen your position that God is a useless idea. It just makes your argument irrelevant since you don't touch on any of the historical or philosophical issues that surround the idea of God. It is like in the process of disregarding God, you also disregard history and philosophy, which simply makes your statements unphilosophical and ahistorical.
     
  9. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    15,655
    No.
    Yes, a great many people.

    It is unfortunate that you do not.

    I am disappointed; I expected you to come up with some pathetic weaseling out of your argument by now. I am happy to wait, though.
     
  10. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

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    Have you ever driven a car?

    Jan.
     
  11. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    15,655
    Yes.
     
  12. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    We can only speculate how ever expansion is an atribute of this universe..it had what we perceive as a start and that means it presumably will have an end caused somewhat by the expansion if you follow the idea associated with speculation as to the end of the universe...so this universe starts and ends and restarts with a new bid bang...all we need is a cycle...certainly more reasonable than requiring a eternal creator...
    Evolution deals only with elvolution it does not comment on how life formed..
    But we know all that and it would not surprise me to find humans creating life in the near future.
    By who.

    Its ok to argue along there is there is not approach but now that I come forward with what must present as a dangerous idea I have been noticed... does that mean I am now a target being a thinker and maybe should be dealt with before I give the brainwasher mob an idea that could bring down the empire of lies and myth.
    Thats the way the religions approach things isnt it...think what you like so long as you agree there is a god...

    I know ...dont rock the boat or the god believers will get you.

    Its a reality I realise is true.


    My idea is indeed dangerous because it seems more likely to be true than the made up notion of an eternal creator who popped out of eternity to create a finite universe all for his little pet humans who of course he just happened to make in his image...I do think an eternal universe with out the need of a made up creator is facing the most plausible reality.

    As I said...choice one is a finite universe with an eternal creator who treats humans special or choice two we merely live in an eternal universe that needs no creation.

    Choice two fits observation.

    People find it difficult to comprehend that the universe could be eternal yet some how think an eyernal god raises no problems..reflects the lack of thought on the matter only.
    I am just a mug Jan dominating is not my thing.
    I offer two choices one most reasonable and one requiring a made up creator existing forever who came out to make humans that look like him...if my choice is absurd where does that leave a selection of a choce in favour of a creator...each can make their own judgement as I think the reasonable non god making humans that look like him simply is so unreasonable it is a non contest.
    Their problem not mine.
    Superstition is so woven into our society and culture is it any wonder that even an atheist is still capable of being infected by the problem.
    Jan I read all you write and go to great effort to make sure I understand what you say.
    It is you perhaps that is not following all I propose.
    So we have a creator who built everything and therefore has the ability to make things in anyway he pleases...just for a novel approach why not build the universe kinder and hard wire humans not to kill...if you actually think about what I am saying you could ask...well why not.
    It is so simple ... we are creating a universe with look like god humans...lets just make their brains incapable of thinking of killing or being cruel...that must be easy for a god..well of course it is you know it I know it...but to make an excuse we need free will...sure.
    Of course we would still be human...we are hard wired not chew off our arms or legs...still human..taking the choice away not to eat ourselves does not hint at being less human nor does being hard wired not to kill.
    Free will is such bs particularly when so many believe prophesy is real...for prophesy to exist means free will can not exist.

    I have to go again and follow up later however Jan may I say I really do appreciate the manner you are dealing with me...you have not been evasive or tricky and so it is a pleasure to have our discussion and I thank you.
    Alex
     
  13. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    I was not trying to mock but illustrate an approach...its just that I dont read fiction and have few mythical characters that I know about...
    Maybe Superman ... so I have a problem I could ask myself what would he do...but I guess that raises problwms what he could do and what I could do would be different.
    There is no history that points clearly to JC I am afraid...nil zip nothing.

    JC follows the MO of various folk prior in history and enjoy similar myths, claiming similar with similar attributes and relationships etc...that is true...at least eight or ten that are known of...so JC would seem to be just another making similar claims in effect running the same act as others before him...and so his claim to be god seems unreasonable...and sure millions believe that he was god but their belief does not mean he was...personally I am happoer with just the old testament...it is easy to see it contains stories that although clearly made up offer some moral or dictate some law.
    The NT is crazy...a man who claimed to be god promises to return but does not and some rat bag predicting world end with seven headed beasts etc...maybe I I had read fiction in my life I could be more tolerant...but the NT really is so very wrong in so many places...
    Anyways if there is a god and if humans are important perhaps he could appear and explain things rather than leave it to a variety of nameless authors of dubious material offered up in a book full of errors that one has to interpret to leave out inappropriate immorality ...
    Alex
     
  14. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    I think there is something to that in so far as all groups I have had involvement seem to have a code which applies in group.
    Anyways morality is built by the individual and although there are holy books finally it is the reader who determines which verse they will take as guidance...
    Saying the bible is needed as theists do to give morality to humans is just twaddle...they pick and take what they like and fits their world.
    Many christians eat pork and prawns, shrimp to you, and yet in their good book its a no no...same as they dont kill sunday workers or kill their unruley children...the good book is just a convenience and professing a belief in god often a lie.
    I think atheists hold higher moral values as a generalisation...generally more honest and direct...unfortunately it has been my sad experience with christians to find they change what they say...I never forget this guy god this and that during our meeting and promised to list his house with me the next day after he had time to think and that he was not even calling in another agent and if he did decide to sell he would only use me...never take them at their word...next day at 12 noon I drive by the house to notice a sign of another agent proclaiming sole agency...why lie to folk..if he did want to list with me heshould have told the truth..
    That is one of many examples of these spiritual folk having no memory and a word that is valueless...
    Oh father I have sinned..I lied to a man this week...no worries all good yhrow some dollars in yhe plate and god will forgive you...easy to be slap happy with morality when you can buy forgiveness...hypocracy incorporated.
    Alex
     
  15. Acitnoids Registered Senior Member

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    660
    I am late to this discussion but these are my thoughts:
    First, I think of psychology as an art not a science. Kind of like cooking or a medical doctor. Sure they use scientific fields to help produce an end result but the diagnostic and therapeutic/culinary presentation is based on artistic experience, not scientific methodology.

    Second, I am coming at these questions as an agnostic which was not included in the opening post.

    This is not a simple question. Education, upbringing, social status .... I find this question to rest in the Nurture side yet the Nature side is just as important. It comes down to this one question that none of us can answer for ourselves.

    Are you an innately curious person or do you accept what others tell you as truth?

    I am an agnostic so I have a hard time with this question. I have read Homers Iliad and Odyssey and yet I have no faith in the Greek Pantheon. Why are people that read or study any particular theology automatically considered a theist by Atheists? Philosophy is Philosophy.

    Good luck on that private conversation heh.

    The bold here seems to be either bias or directed at a specific person without any regard to a greater conversation. That's just my observation so that's all I have to say about that.

    I had come into this tread late but from what I have read. ..... These requests have gone unnoticed.

    To recap my view; Psychology is not a proven science to ask such a profound question based on science.

    Upbringing, education, social economic status are important factors for why people "have" or "refute" faith. IMHO innate curiosity is just as if not a more important a factor. That being said, being innately curious (or not) does not determine your level of faith or denial. Nurture determines that while Nature gives or denies innate curiosity.

    I'm sorry, while reading this thread others have fallen into their tribal traps. A few of your suggested guidelines have been stepped over. Still, on the surface this is a good question. Unfortunately others have used it to build the walls of an "other".

    We all have far more in common than something as silly (or as important) as "faith". Psychology is incapable of answering these questions as stated. We on the other hand can say "to each their own" or "It's my way or the highway" (overly simplistic ad hominem). All I can say is, if you have the natural gift of innate curiosity then you have the ability to understand the other side if you are so inclined.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2018
  16. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    11,115
    And as long as your God is my God.
     
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  17. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    Well thank you Jan for not judging me too harshly.

    Your advice is sound it is wise to be honest with yourself.

    So what question do you wish to put to me that I should accept my honest answer?
    Alex
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2018
  18. kx000 Valued Senior Member

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    4,615
    Faith in life is hope, and magesty, and pacifism is a absolute. These are the core behaviors in "my religion." My religion is all about behaviors, and natures. Only the moral, and hedonistic go to Heaven, but haters, and the impassive families are disqualified.
     
  19. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

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    I suppose you could start by answering questions I asked in the post you're responding to.

    jan.
     
  20. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

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    Atheists base their discussion on denial of God. For starters.

    jan.
     
  21. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Yes, and Theists base their discussion on the scientifically unsupported belief in God for their starting and only position.

    So what is your point.....

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  22. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Morality is a secular philosophy and practice.

    You are spouting exclusive and prejudicial drivel as if atheists are incapable of being moral and even if they are by nature moral, they are still disqualified. I see, atheists are doomed because they are unable to curry God's favor?

    Who told you that, God? What language did he use?

    Seems unlikely to me....

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    p.s. where is Heaven?
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2018
  23. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    So by the phrasing of your sentence it seems you agree that Alex does believe in the Universe and that he does believe in Darwinism?
     

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