Misogyny, Guns, Rape and Culture..

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by Bells, Jun 2, 2014.

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  1. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

    I'm sure someone like Hitler thought/felt/spoke the same way regarding how exterminating the Jewish population would "facilitate Germany's rise to power"...
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  3. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

    The Marquis:

    That's all well and good, but your original comment seemed to be more general than a warning that empathy can prevent taking tough decisions. You wrote that empathy should never preclude or prevent action. You didn't specify what kinds of actions you were talking about. Maybe you had only the specific context of the post I extracted this from in mind and I'm reading it too widely.

    You also wrote that empathy tends to drive action in this world, which you say is dangerous. Is it only dangerous because you worry that it prevents people from making tough decisions that may result in better long-term outcomes, or do you have other reasons in mind?

    Sorry once again for the side-track. It's just interesting to find somebody who claims that empathy is a dangerous thing. To whom is it dangerous, and why?
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  5. Bells Staff Member

    Why is that such a problem?

    If someone harms another, such as rapes another, for example, why do you have a problem with the "authority" which punishes the offender?

    Ya think?

    One utopia deems women to be equal in all ways with rights over their own bodies. The other utopia tells rape victims they have failed if they are raped because they somehow did not prevent it or deem women to be murderers if they choose to exercise their rights over their own bodies.

    I am a woman, which do you think I would choose? Go on, take a wild guess.

    Yes, everything is about control. Which begs the question of why you are poo pooing the thought that a rapist should be punished for their crime? So much so that you are complaining about the authority under which that authority is rendered, after the little spiel of lack of empathy for the rapist.

    Actually, you are the one who made a rash and emotional judgement about me, which is completely unfounded. My general advice to you, Marquis dear, is to check your sources.

    If you lack tolerance and empathy, it stands to reason that you would find it hard to recognise it in others.

    As I said, poor widdle rapist being so misunderstood and damn the bitch who "failed" because she wasn't prepared.

    I have never known you to not protest my answers Marquis.

    That said, I don't post here to impress others, unlike some people.

    And your head is so far deep in the dirt, you are growing roots. I suspect your problem is that we do see the forest for the trees.


    You mean telling rape victims that they failed because they were rape is preparedness? And you whine about empathy or lack of it?

    My comments annoyed you because I dared to rebut against someone who isn't advocating preparedness. She is advocating victim blaming and victim shaming.

    And you obviously missed my point. Rape prevention is always touted by those who bow down to the male dominated psyche, which demands that it is up to the woman to not be raped. And I can assure you, she scraped the ground with her forehead with this one:

    "but if you fail to prepare, you fail."​

    So who does this particular rule apply to? I notice you are complaining that I am applying her rule of rape prevention to a 100 year old rape victim. Does this mean the rape prevention rule does not apply to everyone equally? Some are exempt? Does it apply to a particular age bracket? Perhaps the younger women who go out to bars, or are at school or university or working and married or unmarried? At what age does the "but if you fail to prepare, you fail" stop applying? Retirement age? When does it start to apply? When she grows boobs and pubes?

    At what point will society start and stop expecting women to prevent their own rape? What age does it apply from? Is it like when Wynn once told a victim of child sex abuse that she contributed to and was responsible for her own rape when she was raped when she was a 3 year old by her neighbour she knew and obviously trusted, because she went to his house next door? A bit later than that? What about the teenage girls who are gang raped at parties after being drugged? It tends to start there with people blaming them for having gone there and consumed alcohol. I've even seen Trooper go on about how women and girls should not drink if they want to avoid being raped. And when does it stop? When can she finally relax, stop being aware and prepared 100% of the time to the risk of rape and actually be able to live her life without being in constant fear that she will be blamed if she is raped? Is there an age bracket for that? You are complaining about a 100 year old rape victim being used as an example? I posted a link earlier with dozens and dozens of pages, filled with cases and stories of women who have been beaten, raped, abused and killed for daring to say "no" and for daring to try to leave men who expected them to bow down. And you are upset I dared to disagree with Trooper by showing her why rape prevention is ridiculous? Poor baby. Would you like a cookie?
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  7. Bells Staff Member

    Ah gold.

    What are the consequences for her for "failing"?

    At the very least she is raped. She then reports it to the police. If she knows the rapist, depending on which State she is in or which county, nothing may come of it, because some people out there, many in law enforcement, believe that only stranger rape is the real legitimate rape. But let's say she calls the police and they miraculously choose to arrest and charge the rapist. She then faces the court of public opinion and she is blamed and then people start going on about rape prevention and it becomes victim shaming and blaming. Her actions are looked at, what was she doing prior to being raped, who was she with, what was she drinking or consuming, where was she when it occurred, why was she there at that time of the night, why was she in his company in the first place? Couldn't she tell he could be a rapist?.. These are all excuses used on this site about rape victims and just how she should have known better.

    I'll give you a perfect example of your ideology in the real world. A woman works as a clerk in a prison housing dangerous criminals. The prison allowed a convicted rapist and one who has sexually assaulted other female staff at another prison, access to her office and the offices of other female staff in his current prison. One day, she was working in her office and he supposedly came in to remove the trash. He grabbed her from behind, choked her until she lost consciousness and then raped her for over 20 minutes. He was convicted of this as well and she sued to seek compensation against the prison who allowed a dangerous and convicted rapist to have such free and easy and open access to areas where unprotected female staff were working. Do you know what the response of the State was?

    Some or all of the damages plaintiff have alleged are in part, or substantially due, to the acts of third parties … plaintiff acted in a manner which in whole or in part contributed to the events which led to the damages plaintiff has alleged in her complaint,”​

    Do you understand now why rape prevention becomes a tool to blame rape victims for their own rapes?

    Setting aside the fact that you think women are too stupid to know these things in the first place and that it apparently needs to be repeated over and over again, like a mantra, just so that she knows if she raped, she "failed", do you have an inkling in the dangers of what you propose? Tell your kids to not get drunk, accept drinks from strangers, not leave drinks unattended, not go out with or sleep with strangers, take self defense, learn about the psychology of rapists and all the rest of the prevention advice given to women these days. Great, sage advice that we give to our kids regardless about stranger danger, and drinking, etc. But when you coin it as rape prevention, it takes on a whole new and different meaning. And this is apparently acceptable and what is expected. But the thought of teaching or educating males and females to not rape is something you thought was something worth scoffing over. The onus and the responsibility to not be raped remains predominantly on the potential victims. The pressure it places on women, and people wonder why women do not come forward to report being raped?

    In other words, you completely disregard rapes where there is no force. Where he coerced her into sex against her wishes. By putting in the element of force only, you automatically set a rigid standard like those who argue about 'legitimate rape', where she is held down and raped, leaving out those who are drugged, are too drunk to consent, are coerced or convinced to say yes by either words or even foreplay until she just gives in.

    But when we do, we are blamed for having been there in the first place. "Why were you having sex with him and then changed your mind? Buyer's regret?" or "Why were you in bed with him and allowed him to have sex with you and then stopped? Don't you think you were leading him on? What could you have done to prevent it?"..

    Rape prevention.

    Or we can educate men that women are equal and that their rights should be respected.
  8. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    That, I think, is a false statement. Empathy is far too often in deficit, and its ever-reliable guidance function too often unavailable.

    Empathy guides action better than almost anything else, embodies the huge advantage of the sapiens capability more completely than any other approach - unless one has time to do the reason and research thing, which takes the empathy into a rugged program of investigation over time.

    You abused it from ignorance and consequent lack of empathy. Had you been able to feel the plant drowning, heating up in the sun, struggling to breathe and cool off, you would not have had to butcher it back and start over.

    That's one difference between prevention, properly so called, and emergency response when prevention has failed.

    The central delusion of the authoritarian mindset, and a contributing factor in the generation of rapists and abetting of rape by a given society.
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2014
  9. Trooper Secular Sanity Valued Senior Member

    Are you kidding me right now? We have to bend over backwards to appease who, a potential jury? Why, because in the past rapists were let off the hook because of their victim’s failure to fight them off?

    Oh, I see… we have to fucking tiptoe. We’re supposed to avoid preventive measures because it may justify an assault, is that it?

    Let me know when you die-hard feminists have changed public opinion, will you? I don’t want to reinforce those double standards that make prosecution difficult, but my future daughter in-law works nights in the city. I would like her to stop texting when she’s walking to her car. I want her to pay attention to her surroundings. So, let me know when these changes fully take hold, will you?

    Hmm…I've told my son these things. Don’t get so drunk at party that you can’t take care of yourself. Pay attention to your surroundings. Be careful.

    Wait just a minute…I’d be reinforcing double standards, if I can’t tell her to be careful, too.

    Nah, screw that shit. I taught my son how to defend himself and I will teach her, as well.
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2014
  10. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    You insist on confusing emergency and marginally effective self-defense measures with rape prevention generally. Why?

    You are reinforcing societal norms, including victim blaming, that make rape prevention difficult (not just rapist prosecution).
  11. Trooper Secular Sanity Valued Senior Member

    I'm making rape prevention difficult, am I now? Does rape prevention reinforce rape, iceaura?

    Societal norms, eh?

    WTF? Is there an elephant in the room? What myth reinforces rape, iceaura?
    Can you name it and tame it?

    How 'bout mythical satyrism, the uncontrollable male sexual urge?
  12. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Part the First

    Does this mean you really haven't been paying attention the whole time you've been swooning over Elliot Rodger, attacking rape victims for failing, and pitching a fit on behalf of rape culture because you don't like Bells?

    So we're going to hop in the figurative time machine and go all the way back to March 27, 2013. That was the beginning of a thread about "Rape and the 'Civilized' World". And in the topic post, I quoted Anna Minard, a local reporter who was covering a crime story:

    I came across this crime roundup in this post about the attacks on PhinneyWood, the Phinney Ridge/Greenwood neighborhood blog. The post includes a long message from SPD's North Precinct crime prevention officer, Terrie Johnston, recommending that readers "please review these personal safety tips." The tips, of which there are a dozen, include things like:

    Do you know your location? Do you know the street names, hundred block? East, South, West, North? Could you tell the 9-1-1 call taker to where they need to dispatch responders?

    Try to get good descriptions of anyone acting suspiciously or threatening. Start from the head and work down. Most likely you know your height, so use this to gauge theirs.

    If traveling alone, take a charged up cell phone with you if possible. Know what is available to you along your route. What time does that store open or close? Does that apt.bldg. have a security guard? Is there a payphone?

    Ipod earphones, etc. may prevent you from hearing someone approaching. As does texting while you are walking, waiting for the bus, etc. You need to be aware when out if public spaces.

    Wear appropriate clothing for the street. Shoes that are comfortable and allow you to run if necessary. Choose clothing that allows you to move, and does not block your vision.​

    The list also includes the tips: "Stand tall, walk confidently with your head up, eyes open and constantly scanning the surroundings" and "Try not to show fear. Keep a neutral face that shows you are 'in charge.'"

    So, to review: Seattleites—and let's be honest, we're talking mostly to women here—as you go about your business, constantly scan your surroundings, memorizing detailed physical descriptions of people you encounter. Always know, down to the exact block, where you are and where the nearest security guard is and the hours of nearby businesses. Wear running shoes and loose, appropriate clothing—aka clothing appropriate for running away in. Bring your cell phone, but don't use it to listen to music or text. And as you walk through the city like a human danger-scanner, walk confidently and keep your face neutral. You're "in charge"!


    I'm sure the police department is working to solve these crimes. I'm sure they just want to remind people that we live in a city and crime is real and it can happen to you. But this is exactly the kind of shit that we are talking about when we talk about women being raised in a culture of fear and conditioned to certain behaviors and expectations—like the expectation that we're the ducks in a giant game of Duck Hunt™.

    She also notes a Snopes-debunked myth about hairstyles, and, really, read those rape prevention tips. They're amazingly awful.

    And, yes, the Snopes list was written by a man.

    Pat Brown wrote some rape prevention tips, but, to the one, they're not effective tips, to another, they're actually applicable to any number of crimes, and, to a third, it's scare-tactic clickbait depending on a cinematic perspective of events. These tips apply to less than ten percent of rapes and have no genuinely effective value. But also, we might note that at the time we're telling women to stand out in the middle of the street for safety the situation is already out of hand.

    But consider this: The article headlines, "What To Do When You're In Danger", but look at the browser heading: "Saftey Tips For Women — How To Prevent Rape". And the URL ends in "/prevent-getting-raped".

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  13. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Part the Second

    The article also linked to a page from the Charles County (Maryland) Sheriff's Office, since pulled from the agency website, that apparently recommended women could prevent rape by limiting the hours they left their homes.

    The underlying lie is prevention itself. Furthermore, it's a bad formulation: If only women would reduce their quality of life a little more, then they wouldn't be raped.

    The idea that a victim can fail to prevent rape is pretty sick. I can't imagine why anyone would buy into it once they realize the whole rape prevention myth is a lie. Then again, who knows? Perhaps your personal disdain for others is clouding your judgment.

    Furthermore, these rape "prevention" tips only apply to an exceptionally small number of rapes, and they are generally advocated by people who don't want themselves or their loved ones to be suspect. Such as the exchange I had with Billvon ono this point. His definition of common sense has something to do with people's irrational beliefs, and not observable reality; hence, segregation of sexes is not, by definition, common sense. Yet for all the tips we hear from the IPAs who still haven't established an outer boundary to their bogus prevention philosophy, the only ones that pertain to, say, seventy-two percent of reported rapes against women really screw up the rest of human association.

    Self-defense? A guard dog? A handgun? Okay, now she's going to turn the full force of that against ... her husband? Her best male friend since junior high? Her boss?

    Or, hey, nobody would properly object to packing the dog and handgun and pepper spray and taser on a date right after she's shaved her head so that her haircut isn't too inspiring to a rapist and dressed herself in a burqua in order to not accidentally arouse a rapist ... okay, you know, if that's how it goes, that's how it goes. But the bottom line rape prevention tip here is to not accept the date.

    Statistically speaking, she's safer going to the club without a guy than with.

    And, sure, it's fair to think of the poor guy at this point. While seventy-two percent of reported rapes against women are committed by husbands, lovers, friends, and other regular acquaintances such as co-workers, it is also true that not seventy-two percent of men are, by definition, rapists.

    Still, though, she gets in the car strapped up with three or four weapons, and a dog trained to be suspicious of you, and, well, yeah, even I can imagine myself wondering about the purpose of this "date".

    It's one thing to blithely reiterate infinite prevention advice, but quite another to comprehend the implications of practical application.

    So do you need me to worry about the men? Yeah, at some point the woman's need to denigrate her own quality of life will start to affect other people.

    And then what? Shall we call them man-hating dyke bitches? Or are they just trying to be prepared?

    And, yes, I phrase it as such to make a point. All the prevention tips in the world won't work, and we will still need to address the attitudes and behaviors that require all these fake prevention tips.

    The simple question is this: Do we wish for human females to conduct themselves as human beings in society, or are they sex toys on a pedestal obliged to protect their virtue against an unceasing torrent of harassment and threats because, well, let's face it, we either can't change attitudes and behaviors, or we're just too damn lazy to try?

    There is a nasty vicious reality out there. I would suggest we need to change that reality. You, however, are arguing for accommodation.

    It's a year and a half since I tried to open a discussion about societal attitudes toward rape, and here we are back to square zero, in order to accommodate Trooper's extraordinary needs.

    Here's an idea: Register for a Slog account; it's easy and I get no spam through The Stranger. And then check in and tell Minard and Lindy West and others what they're doing wrong.

    I can only await the arrival of the Secular Sanity Trooper at Slog.

    Don't worry, you'll find some sympathetic men there, too, so the response from fellow readers won't be exclusively harsh.

    Part of your problem, Trooper, is that you're letting the interpersonal politics take priority.

    (And satyriasis would make an excellent discussion; to what degree is it real, and to what degree is it actually a mythically broad assignation?)


    Minard, Anna. "To Avoid Rape, 'Try not to show fear.'" Slog. February 13, 2013. Slog.TheStranger.com. October 14, 2014. http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2013/02/13/to-avoid-rape-try-not-to-show-fear

    Mikkelson, Barbara. "Assaulted Tale (aka This Bird Won't Fly)". Snopes. July 5, 2011. Snopes.com. October 14, 2014. http://www.snopes.com/crime/prevent/rape.asp

    Brown, Pat. "What To Do When You're In Danger". Cosmopolitan. June 1, 2011. Cosmopolitan.com. October 14, 2014. http://www.cosmopolitan.com/lifestyle/advice/a3529/prevent-getting-raped/
  14. Trooper Secular Sanity Valued Senior Member

    Oh, Jesus, stop being so overly defensive and dramatic. Like I said before, I don’t know Bells or care to. She could be a 250 pound man for all I know, but I do know this, she mimics you. You’re both over the top and almost identical to “REALLY!?! with Seth and Amy.” I can’t tell if you’re a parody or not.

    I wasn't swooning over Elliot Rodger you idiot. I said that he wasn't a good example to use and that you were vultures for doing so. I called you out on your dry foot policy and your request to all atheists. Do you want the links?

    You and I don’t see eye to eye, that’s all. No biggie.

    Oh, look, I’m not the only one who feels this way.

    Last edited: Oct 15, 2014
  15. billvon Valued Senior Member

    Indeed, to some people here, rape prevention is as evil as rape itself, since it might make another woman who was raped feel as if she could have done more. They feel it is far better to make no efforts to prevent rape, so no one feels bad.
  16. Bells Staff Member


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    You tell your daughter, 'don't drink to excess, don't get into cars with strangers, don't leave your drink or accept drinks from people you don't know or trust, etc'..

    As I said, sage advice. Something parents tell their kids regardless.

    Now, tell your daughter 'if you want to prevent or reduce your chances of being raped, don't drink to excess or drink alcohol, don't get into cars with strangers, don't leave your drink or accept drinks from people you don't know or trust, etc'..

    Can you see the difference of how that is applied and is taken differently?

    By coining such sage advice as "rape prevention", you have already set the tone in motion that if she somehow gets raped, then she will have wanted it or allowed it if she dared to break away from that sage advice. She then blames herself and thinks she is to blame. A prime example is the party gang bangs, where teenage girls go to a party, get drunk along with all the other kids and their drinks are spiked and they are gang raped and the lurid videos of their rapes are posted online. The response to those videos are predictable. Revulsion, but also the comments about what she was doing there, getting drunk in the first place, along with 'what did she think was going to happen?'. Rape prevention becomes victim blaming and shaming. The problem with rape prevention is that it reduces the chances women and girls report being raped if they partook in "risky behaviour".

    If you tell your daughter "if you want to prevent being raped, don't get drunk".. She has a few drinks and is raped. How do you think that will make her feel? Responsible for what happened to her? Will she feel the blame for her behaviour which she will believe will have led her to being raped? How likely is a girl, who is taught that if she doesn't want to be raped she shouldn't drink, going to report a rape to the police if she did drink? I wouldn't. Because I'd blame myself and think that I could have prevented it. Rape victims often go through those horror periods analysing everything and going over everything and second guessing their actions because they often believe they did something to lead to their being raped. Now, imagine that with advice from mum and dad telling her that if she doesn't want to be raped, she needs to avoid a through to z. How is she going to feel if she is raped? Who is she going to blame? Would she tell her parents who drilled rape prevention steps into her head? I wouldn't. I'd be too ashamed to, because I broke those rules and I fucked up and as a result, I was raped.

    And if you live in some parts of the world, rape prevention listed by the State suggests that women be afraid of anyone male, black and advise women to walk down the middle of the street to avoid being raped.

    Or if you live in Colorado, even a rapist confessing to raping a woman was not enough to get the prosecutor to take on the case, because he felt the victim being drunk and unconscious meant she had invited the rape and had done nothing to prevent it.

    That is the reality of rape prevention.
  17. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

    that just it. your not about preventing it. your all about it not being you. that's not prevention that's changing the target. until you demand those that rape be the ones we concentrate on rather than tell women they have an obligation to prevent them selves from being raped your part of the problem.

    I'm a male victim of sexual assault. if I followed your rules i still would have been assualted. your attitude quite frankly is insulting, disrespectful, arrogant, and in all honesty an attack on me and what i went through. so yeah you reinforce the attitudes that led to my attack. so quit pretending you goddamn victim and take responsibility for your actions.
  18. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

    So your not saying women shouldn't wear certain clothes. that they shouldn't drink that they shouldn't go to bars?
  19. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    See, one of the problems with your argument is that it is, in fact, all about you.

    There's a larger issue going on here, and why should we stop to redefine reality in order to accommodate you?


    "I don’t think he hated women as much as he feared them. They became his narrative, a status symbol, an answer to all his problems. Just like most people feel that they can gain social status from material gains, he thought having a girlfriend would solve all his problems. He thought that if he had a girlfriend he’d be admired, respected, loved, and finally accepted. He falsely assumed that self-worth could be attained through possessions or achievements. His hypersensitivity to criticism and negative judgments caused excessive anger. Malicious envy played a key role throughout his entire life ....

    [Rodger excerpt]​

    ".... And then he saw a beautiful girl out for a walk."​

    Not all romantic sentiments are beautiful. The idea of hopes raised and crushed is always tragic, but those hopes were proprietary and corrosive.

    Women were prizes to be won and possessed; men were the competition to be defeated. And Elliot Rodger couldn't handle losing.

    It's a dangerous, stupid, horrible game. Without the murders I would probably feel for the guy to some degree, even if I don't like his criteria. But in the end, those proprietary hopes led to a terrible outcome that was his own choice.

    Why not just take the kid at his word? Actually, we do. It's just that not all of us pretend those words are all there is to it. Otherwise, let's just take the domestic abuser at his word: "I'm only doing this because I love you! Why do you make me do this?"

    You might not agree with my psychoanalysis of history, but would you really pretend there is none to be had?

    It's easy enough to sympathize with the loss of a family fortune, right? But just how sorry do you feel for the slave owners? If we took them at their word the way you want us to take Elliot Rodger at his word? Here, try this one: Well, it would be un-Christian to teach the slaves to read, because then they might start thinking they're people and that would make them unhappy. Yeah, let's take them at their word, face value, superficial as it gets, with no consideration of passions, interests, or, as I assert, a dialectic of neurosis.

    If we take Klebold and Thomas at their word, all those kids deserved to die.

    Their words do tell us the story, but if you're capable of comprehending that, "It was the best of times, it was the worst of times", is not a functional paradox, then you're also capable of acknowledging that taking people at their word is not so superficial an exercise as you tried to paint it.

    You were, however, exactly right when you said, "Just like most people feel that they can gain social status from material gains, he thought having a girlfriend would solve all his problems." Because women were mere things in this outlook.

    Don't need them. Consider this bit of idiocy:

    "I don’t understand why you think it’s fair to equate Elliot Rodger to all men in our society."

    It would probably help you communicate your point if you were honest, Trooper. To this day you are unable to support your accusation.

    Indeed. My problem with your disagreement is the amount of delusional windmill tilting you insist on. You know, like, "I don’t understand why you think it’s fair to equate Elliot Rodger to all men in our society."

    It's your determined dishonesty that makes you notorious, Trooper.

    And it's a pretty shitty article. Remember that "prevention" as you and Ms. Loftis argue it is fundamentally a lie. And, really, if "rape prevention" was as easy as locking the doors to our house or cars, or putting our wallets where they're not easily picked, then maybe there would be something to that.

    I would appreciate a straightforward answer, here: In all of the common sense prevention advice, from not trusting anyone with you drink to wearing different shoes and clothes to cutting your hair to be less attractive to rapists to not using your mobile phone downtown ... &c., &c., &c. ... at what point do you feel this becomes a quality of life issue?

    Really? How much do women have to do, in your opinion, to not fail?

    And I do wonder if Ms. Loftis also shares your argument that a woman who has been raped has failed?

    But let's also try this one. Remember the article from Arthur Chu? About how certain attitudes lend toward certain disastrous outcomes? When you complained that it's unfair "to equate Elliot Rodger to all men in our society"? Like I said, you still can't make that case, but still, consider the latest tale of a female game developer who took flight over the weekend; Brianna Wu and her husband have gone into hiding after gamers decided to threaten to rape her to death. Yes, really:

    "I was literally watching 8chan go after me in their specific chatroom for Gamergate," she told Kotaku today. "They posted my address, and within moments I got that death threat."

    And if you really want people to not deal with that because you think addresing the fact of rampant misogyny in diverse sectors of our society somehow indicts all men as mass-murdering psychopaths, yes, I admit, we're going to continue to disagree.

    I do, however, owe some people an apology. In truth, IPA isn't infinite. That is to say, just like you and Billvon, Ms. Loftis prefers to focus on one of the smaller subsets of reported rapes against females; she has nothing to offer women about how to prepare to protect themselves against their husbands. It would seem the one finite boundary is anything that might make the self-respecting men who dispense prevention advice suspect. So, yeah. The apology would be sarcastic.

    But, you know, to me that sort of thing is just a walking contradiction. You know, like, is this a happy marriage?

    Bob: Sounds like a rough day. Let's have a drink.

    Jane: Excuse me! I'll pour my own, thank you. You might be my husband but I can't trust you, and must always prepare to prevent being raped.​

    No, really, at what point does this prevention advice become a quality of life issue? The above is an example of applying rape "prevention" advice. And, you know, since you have not thus far been moved by appeals to a woman's quality of life, perhaps the above example will remind you that the men's lives get fucked up by it all, too.

    A woman does not "fail" by trusting her husband.

    But Bob and Jane? Hell, even I would suggest they both failed ... when they took their vows.

    In the end, Trooper, you'll find reality is a much better realm for dealing with these problems than whatever faery-tale magick land you're blindly believing in.


    Totilo, Stephen. "Another Woman In Gaming Flees Home Following Death Threats". Kotaku. October 11, 2014. Kotaku.com. October 14, 2014. http://kotaku.com/another-woman-in-gaming-flees-home-following-death-thre-1645280338
  20. Trooper Secular Sanity Valued Senior Member

    Really!?! No, really....because apparently, you and bells want us to pretend that bad people don't exist. Nope, no predators. Nope, there are no rapists watching you drink, buying you drinks. So, yes, drink up girls, drink like a man.

    Like I said before, the "it’s on us" campaign is excellent, but it won’t solve all of our problems. The drunk driving campaigns were great, but people still drink and drive.
  21. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Again, deal with reality.

    Actually, that's part of the point. The question of binge drinking, or heavy drinking, or drinking at all should be, in this context, the same for everyone; generally speaking, it's unhealthy, and it's only fun until you come down, then it's really, really painful. Drink like a man? Well, to the one, sure, if that's what you want. To the other, there is always De Beauvoir:

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    Garry Trudeau, Doonesbury, October 17, 1972

    Thank you for providing such an excellent example.

    What your conservative political sources all skip in their blithe generalizations is the detail. "Simple rape prevention measures"? I asked you a straightforward question, and you have refused to answer: In all of the common sense prevention advice, from not trusting anyone with you drink to wearing different shoes and clothes to cutting your hair to be less attractive to rapists to not using your mobile phone downtown ... &c., &c., &c. ... at what point do you feel this becomes a quality of life issue?

    Do you actually have an answer? Because that's what you, Ms. Loftis, and Ms. Schow all ignore. The battery of "simple rape prevention measures" is not exactly simple.

    Wear certain clothes? Wear certain shoes? In the first place, one is planning on being sexually assaulted, then. That's a great fucking expectation. But think about it practically: The women at the office where I worked in downtown Seattle were expected to dress professionally, which meant skirts, hose, and heels. First thing, get rid of that stupid standard. Secondly, and more practically, in order to follow the advice, that means going to work involves packing your work clothes and shoes to work and changing once you're there.

    Practically speaking, that might driving into the city, because it's really hard to keep drycleaning from getting all munched and wrinkled on the bus, or when carpooling. Of course, owning a car is expensive, and can in this context be looked at as an expensive complication to a "simple" rape "prevention" tip.

    But there are also tips about not having a haircut that might inspire a rapist. More practically, women should shave their heads so the assailant can't grab on.

    And remember, Trooper, if she fails to prepare, then, as you said, she fails.

    Don't use your mobile phone downtown? Really? Who the hell is putting demons behind every signpost if the prevention tip suggests reading the text message you just got is mortally dangerous? And seriously, don't use your freakin' mobile phone downtown? Yes, that's a real, genuine, "simple" rape "prevention" tip from the good ol' Seattle Police Department.

    Really? Honestly, that right there stands out as a weird quality of life thing; maybe it seems small and simple to some, but really? Don't use your mobile phone downtown? Holy shit, it really comes to this?

    A couple months ago, word emerged of a nail polish that allegedly detects knockout drugs in drinks. Honestly? Yeah, that's a great idea. But neither is it a solution.

    "I think that anything that can help reduce sexual violence from happening is, in some ways, a really good thing," Tracey Vitchers, the board chair for Students Active For Ending Rape (SAFER), told ThinkProgress. "But I think we need to think critically about why we keep placing the responsibility for preventing sexual assault on young women."

    Women are already expected to work hard to prevent themselves from becoming the victims of sexual assault. They're told to avoid wearing revealing clothing, travel in groups, make sure they don't get too drunk, and always keep a close eye on their drink. Now, remembering to put on anti-rape nail polish and discreetly slip a finger into each drink might be added to that ever-growing checklist — something that actually reinforces a pervasive rape culture in our society.

    "One of the ways that rape is used as a tool to control people is by limiting their behavior," Rebecca Nagle, one of the co-directors of an activist group called FORCE: Upsetting Rape Culture that challenges the societal norms around sexual assault, explained. "As a woman, I'm told not to go out alone at night, to watch my drink, to do all of these things. That way, rape isn't just controlling me while I'm actually being assaulted — it controls me 24/7 because it limits my behavior. Solutions like these actually just recreate that. I don't want to fucking test my drink when I'm at the bar. That's not the world I want to live in" ....

    .... "One of the reason we get so excited about these really simple fixes is because it makes us feel like the problem itself is really simple. That's a comforting idea," [Alexandra] Brodsky noted. "But I really wish that people were funneling all of this ingenuity and funding and interest into new ways to stop people from perpetrating violence, as opposed to trying to personally avoid it so that the predator in the bar rapes someone else."

    (Culp-Ressler; boldface accent added)

    See, here's the thing: What part of what those women say do you disagree with?

    Adding to the point Ms. Nagle makes about not wanting rape to control her while she's not being raped is the point that "the vast majority of those assaults don't involve date rape drugs in the first place". You're talking about a "prevention" technique that might not prevent a rape—who says she's getting out of the room after it's known that the party is trying to poison the women?—and would apply to a slender fraction of rapes reported on college campuses, less than two and a half percent.

    "The problem isn't that women don't know when there are roofies in their drink; the problem is people putting roofies in their drink in the first place," Nagle pointed out.

    "I think a lot of the time we get focused on these new products because they're innovative and they're interesting, and it's really cool that they figured out how to create nail polish that does this. But at the end of the day, are you having those tough conversations with students, and particularly men, who are at risk for committing sexual assault?" Vitchers added. "Are you talking to young men about the importance of respecting other people's boundaries and understanding what it means to obtain consent?"

    It's also kind of like that marriage example I offered. As far as choices go, what is the logic here: If I suspect that attending an event will result in me being poisoned and raped, why would I go there?

    This nail polish is a cool innovation. But it's also tragic insofar as, just like learning self-defense and getting a gun so a woman can protect herself against her husband, such measures are necessary at all.

    Although, you know what would be really cool? If they could work that stuff into glass and plastics, so your pint or bucket or Solo® cup changes color. Of course, either the public house or the materials manufacturer would face a hell of a lawsuit the first time one of those things failed.

    Same thing with the nail polish.

    Activists point out that most students are assaulted by people they know in environments where they feel comfortable — situations when wearing anti-rape nail polish doesn't necessarily make sense.

    What kind of friendships and intimate relationships can we really build if women have to guard against being raped at every moment? Hanging out with your friends shouldn't be a real-life James Bond adventure.


    Culp-Ressler, Tara. "Why Rape Prevention Activists Don't Like The New Nail Polish That Can Detect Roofies". ThinkProgress. August 25, 2014. ThinkPRogress.org. October 14, 2014. http://thinkprogress.org/health/2014/08/25/3475190/date-rape-nail-polish/
  22. Bells Staff Member

    You tell your daughter if she doesn't want to be raped, she shouldn't drink, etc? But if she wants to invite rape from some predator, then she should drink? You know, "rape prevention"?

    Men drink differently to women? Here I thought both sexes drank by consuming liquids through our mouths.

    Oh that's right, I forget. You're one of those are you? To remind women of their place, to be demure, quiet, ladylike and purty. You know, be the woman and not a human being.

    Much better to tell girls that if they drink, then they fail, because we all know that women who really don't want to be raped, are prepared and don't drink, etc.
  23. Capracus Valued Senior Member

    I prefer Tiassa Dry Foot to indicate the mouth of residence.

    From the Wayback:
    A member of the grieving community could take the above statement to imply that any male member willing to slap a woman, if given a gun will just as likely kill them. You think the typical man who slaps, typically harbors murderous intent? Next describe what exactly my non-comforting beliefs are so we can both be privy to them.

    Slaves consumed nutrients provided by the master. A fetus consumes nutrients provided by the mother, but not her blood. Ever hear of an organ called the placenta? It’s the thing that magical personhood cord is attached to.

    Women are people who contain locations, one of those locations is called the uterus, a location where new people develop, new people who you seek to deny as such by virtue of their location.

    That women contain property, locations and real estate is factually apparent, the way you associate those elements in regards to personhood is what is offensive.

    Eureka! You finally got it straight. According to Tiassa Dry Foot, located in the mother equals non-person, located outside equals person. Location, location, location.

    What’s the fuss? Just crush its skull before complete delivery, while its feet are still wet.

    Everything on the planet has a physical location, including a woman’s uterus.

    Only some doctors make exceptions in regards to the destruction of the underprivileged occupants the house.

    But you would reserve the right to destroy her prior to delivery.

    My shared fantasy:
    What was on Mrs. Catt’s mind? Apparently not birth control, or timely abortion, or regard for the life of what was essentially a new born child. Her refusal to reveal the location of the body may have been her way of evidentially shoving it back into the womb to avoid a charge of infanticide.

    Talk about fantasies, name one state in the US where Tiassa Dry Foot is in force.

    Our reality is composed of things, and some of those things happen to be people. So what specifically do have against things?

    And the law in the South basically defined them as property and non-persons.
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