The Broad Brush? Women and Men; Prejudice and Necessity

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by Asguard, Jun 4, 2014.

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  1. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    On what happens during a rape, and even the motivations of why a rape occurs and when/where/how. That's a large part of what has me so irritated in this thread - yes, that advice might help prevent a small number of rapes... but honestly, most of them don't follow the "date rape" pattern. I dearly, dearly wish they did, because then it WOULD be so simple to avoid them, to prevent them... but sadly that just isn't the case.

    I'm not sure where it was first brought up, be it in this thread or otherwise.
     
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  3. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    It is a person's duty to stop themselves from committing ANY crime. Period.
    That's easy. You can choose a method to protect yourself. You are not obligated to do so.
    Good for him! Sounds like the same path I chose.

    Are you going to tell him "ditch the martial arts, you idiot! Otherwise you're making the societal argument that people are obligated to defend themselves, and you have to become Bruce Lee."

    No. Again with the extremes. You can educate yourself medically without having to "become a doctor."
    No. Common sense says you shouldn't click on every thing that pops up on your screen.
    I have to ask this with all seriousness - are you really that obtuse? You intentionally learn nothing about computers because you don't want to "become a computer scientist?" You know nothing about medicine, and like it that way, because otherwise you have to "become a doctor?" That's really how you live your life - in ignorance of all those things?

    Yep. And Jim Fixx - one of the most fit people on the planet, and the person that started the US fitness craze - died of a heart attack at 52. Do you really think that's a reason to avoid exercise so you don't end up with heart disease?
    No one is saying that they are obligated. I am saying that people like your friend are wise, and it would be a good idea to emulate him.
    And you are advocating that women submit to rape. Shame on you.
     
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  5. Trooper Secular Sanity Valued Senior Member

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    Don’t get drunk, don’t get into bed with a guy, and don’t take off your cloths. What’s wrong with that advice?

    This makes me a rape apologist and a misogynist? :bugeye:

    I would also advise my children to not leave their drink unattended. To not accept drinks from people they don't know or trust. To be aware of their surroundings and avoid isolated areas. Wouldn't you?
     
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  7. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    Disgraceful

    It was first addressed in the topic post of the thread this one was split from.

    In this thread:

    #12 (Bells): Do you think it's hate speech for me to describe my rape? Was it "man hating bullshit"?

    Response (Balerion, #13): "No, you simply leverage that to score points in conversation, like you have here.")​

    #14 (PJdude): "are you really so fucked in the head to actually try and tell a fucking rape victim that as male whose never been raped that your the real victim of rape"

    #17 (Bells): So my being raped is now leverage..

    ibid: Since you know, you're the guy who just accused me of using being brutally raped as leverage against men.. How can you even whine that you think I have leverage because I was raped, as though it's a good leverage to have?

    ibid: So you enjoy abusing women who just told you they have been recently raped in a thread about misogyny, rape, and violence against women?

    #19 (Balerion): What, do you think being raped gives you special privilage to act like an idiot?

    #20 (Bells): You mean the ones where you are whining that I am a rape victim and it somehow gives me some kind of leverage?

    ibid: I have to ask because your current whine that I am a victim of rape, yes, I mentioned it again, has to be seen to be believed.

    You know, now that I read through the first page of the thread (above), it's easy to see how you missed it.

    Would you like me to review the subsequent pages of this thread?

    Just out of curiosity, did you actually read Balerion's posts before backing him up?

    #55 (Bells to Trooper): I have already been soundly abused and shamed for daring to even say what happened to me. He just stopped short of saying I deserved it.

    Given that you have every appearance of not actually reading the posts you're responding to, yeah, we can see how this little blip on the radar slipped by you.

    No, really, it's all over the thread. No, really, it's all over this thread, to the point that I stopped counting after the first page, and only paused to consider whether #55 was relevant, as you chose to not respond to it. Of course, when you're pursuing personal issues instead of actually attending the subject, well, it's pretty easy to see how you missed it.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2014
  8. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    what's wrong is it is putting the onus of not having rape on the women. its saying the responsiblity is on rape victims to not be raped and not on rapists to you know not rape.
     
  9. Trooper Secular Sanity Valued Senior Member

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    Are you sure because that topic was started on 06-02-14 and she made this comment to me on 05-31-14, as if I should have known?


    I agreed that Bells was using the Elliot Rodger tragedy to push her own agenda. The whole damn world was using it to push some agenda or another.


    [video=youtube_share;kOfuVQC29s8]http://youtu.be/kOfuVQC29s8[/video]


    And this makes me a rape apologist and a misogynist?
     
  10. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    37,884
    And Just What Is Your Point?

    Well pointed. Except, well, what is your point?

    And I would agree that you're actually the one trying to use what he did to push your own agenda to justify misogyny. You're the one romanticizing Elliot Rodger.

    But you do make the point: He told us why he did it. He did it because he did not get the blonde, female fucktoy he felt entitled to.

    And when I responded to that swooning post, you simply changed the subject in order to focus on what women do wrong.

    Of course, these are the sorts of problems one encounters when undertaking a political argument not for the weight of evidence, but the sentimental weight of your own spite.

    You want to equate Rodger's hatred of women with his hatred of men? Okay, how are they the same? And no, you don't get to stay superficial on this one; there is a functional difference that goes way beyond both aspects being hateful.

    Given your insistence that people ignore the misogyny, yes, Trooper, you are a misogynist. Which makes a certain amount of sense; we usually use the term "self-loathing ______", or perhaps its antiquated predecessor, "ego dystonic ______". Self-loathing Jew, self-loathing homosexual, self-loathing woman. These, at least, are the ones that stick out. There are plenty of self-loathing people who fall under different descriptors, such as men, white men, Christians, &c., but these are usually brushed away in favor of other terms because they are closer to the center of statistical normalcy.

    But, at the same time, I don't think that's necessarily the manifestation. It might have something to do with the etiology, but as you've already declared that this isn't about the issue for you but rather your sentiments toward Bells, well, I would need months with you on the couch to untangle that one, though in truth that wouldn't work because you so loathe me and I already consider you tragically and disgracefully dishonest, so it's probably better if you seek certified, professional counseling.
     
  11. Bells Staff Member

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    I keep getting told by the likes of you that I am pushing an agenda, but none of you are able to even tell me what that agenda happens to be. If the agenda is to end misogyny, then what an awful thing to embark on! No wonder you're so pissed.

    You're a rape apologist and a misogynist for a variety of reasons, some of which pertain to your belief that women are somehow able to act or behave a certain way to prevent themselves from being raped, while disregarding that the greater majority of rapes are committed by people the victim knows and trusts. What you advocate for is pretty much being always on hyper alert. Always prepared. Always afraid. You're as bad as Billvon and his 'just don't marry someone who will rape you'.. Ermm okay, because people who rape have it tattooed on their foreheads for everyone to know? By your reckoning, if a girl gets drunk, if she's taken her clothes off to get into bed with a guy she knows or is in a relationship with, then she's asked for it.

    Depends.. Especially if you are male.

    Nah. He's saying that putting the onus on women to not be raped instead of putting the onus on the rapist to not rape is what makes you a rape apologist.

    But I get how you would find that confusing.

    Considering you are saying that if women don't want to be raped, they should simply be more responsible and not marry a potential rapist and all..

    Hmm..

    So you think a woman's clothing is an invitation to a rapist? Best tell the 80+ something grannies who are raped in their homes while they are in their nighties that they are being too risque and should instead dress differently.

    Who to date? Well, in that regard, all are potential rapists. Even you. What to drink and how much? Do you tell men this as well as a rape preventative measure? So if a woman gets drunk in her own home with her spouse and he rapes her, she's partially responsible for putting it out there? What to tell people they talk to? Frankly, why talk to people at all, after all, no one knows who is the rapist.

    There was this study conducted a while ago, where they put up men's faces and asked subjects to pick out the rapist. There were rapists and non-rapists. Your belief that you can tell who a rapist is or will be in the future is misguided and frankly down right idiotic. The potential female victim was completely unable to pick the rapist.

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    Which one, out of those 6 is the rapist?

    I've posted this study before and no one has been able to pin point it.

    Certainly, you can cheat and look it up or you may have seen it before. But no one was able to pinpoint the rapist without having seen this study before. Why is that?

    Because a rapist is not going to walk around advertising that they are rapists. They don't look like rapists. Your rapist looks like your father, your brother, your wife, daughter, son, uncle or aunt, your doctor, your best friend, the guy who sells you the paper, the local police officers, your boss, your colleagues, etc.

    Now, would you leave your drink with your best friend? After all, he/she does not look like a rapist, but they could very well be a rapist. What about your doctor? Your local priest?

    So we should all be going to see trained psychologists to be taught how to spot potential rapists?

    One, two, three and four could be anyone you know, your spouse for example. He stares at you because he thinks you look great and he told you this before you left the house, he's distracted because well, that's what he is always like, especially when out, he wants you all to himself because it's date night, a night out without the kids and you can talk to each other for once without being interrupted, he gets you wasted because you need to let your hair down and relax and how often do you get a chance to get wasted?

    And I was not?

    How have I said or advocated that women submit to rapists?

    What? Because I don't think women should be living in terror of rape 24/7, I advocate that women submit to rapists?

    Interesting..

    Not really. As an actual survivor of rape, I think you're creepy as fuck, I get bad vibes about you and I see you as a potential threat to women.:shrug:
     
  12. cluelusshusbund + Public Dilemma + Valued Senior Member

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    The rapest is number 1... look how close his eyes are together.!!!
     
  13. Bells Staff Member

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    Incorrect.
     
  14. Bells Staff Member

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    This should be super easy (without cheating). Billvon has stated that we should just be able to tell these things.
     
  15. Trooper Secular Sanity Valued Senior Member

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    I’m a woman, an attractive woman. I am very aware of misogynistic behavior, trust me.

    My comment was factitious, and on the abortion issue, at that. She took from that, that I was a rape advocate, and would enjoy watching another woman get raped, that I would actually cheer it on. That is highly offensive, not to mention extremely odd. IOW, she portrayed me as a rape advocate even before she started that topic on misogyny.

    I am in no way romanticizing a mass murderer or in any way justifying misogyny. I don’t understand why you would say that?

    I don’t understand why you think it’s fair to equate Elliot Rodger to all men in our society.

    I left out all of your unnecessary insults, but honestly, I don’t see how you can call me a rape advocate and misogynist with a clear conscience.

    That’s inaccurate. I said that political correctness should not trump common sense and good judgment. That advice is something that any responsible parent would give to a daughter.

    Everything else that you said was highly uncalled for, extremely offensive, and not worthy of a response.
     
  16. cluelusshusbund + Public Dilemma + Valued Senior Member

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    Its prolly Number 4... an if not its number 5.!!!
     
  17. Bells Staff Member

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    Wrong again on both counts.
     
  18. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    you keep talking bout responsibilty but only for the victims. the idea that the rapists should be responsible and you not rape seems to be alien. I'm a guy and the shit you keep saying makes me feel dirty. let me put it to you this way if i was in a bar and you were in my group and you said that I wouldn't let a woman be alone with you. Your making the exact same arguments all the assholes use to diminish the harm caused to victims of trauma and abuse and that's not ok.
     
  19. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    I don't if its 3 but he just looks asshole to me.
     
  20. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    My guess is number Six, my wife says Number 2, but she wouldn't be surprised to have it happen from any of them.

    Pretty good indicator there - you really cannot tell WHO it is from looking at em.
     
  21. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Ah. And since I don't do that, I guess that makes you a liar.
    Nope. Never said that.
    Nope. Never said that.
    You can if you like.
    And you, since women rape as well.
    Definitely. In fact, not getting too drunk is a good way to reduce the odds of ANY violent attack - for men and women alike.
    Nope.
    Cool, since I never claimed that.
    I could show you pictures of six cars and ask you to tell me which one had the drunk driver in it. You would be unable to as well.

    Do you wear a seatbelt?
    Yes. And the cars that drunk drivers drive often look like any other cars. And thieves often look like ordinary people. And serial killers often look like the guy next door.
    Still, if you use those facts to decide that you can do nothing to help yourself - and you tell people they are victims with no control over their own destinies - you will get people raped (and assaulted, and killed.) Decide if that's what you want to do.
    Depends how well I know them. Have I known them all my life? Then the odds are very low that they will try to drug me. Were they just convicted of rape? Then the odds are high. Again, common sense.
    Not unless you want to. Up to you.
    If you mean that your rape taught you more about rape than her rape taught this woman - you would have to take that up with her. She disagrees with your "just be a victim" approach, and would be much more suited to the conversation than I would be.
    You have said over and over again that there is NO WAY to protect yourself against rape. You ridicule the very idea. The only remaining choice is to submit.

    But I will ask you directly. If a woman is at risk of being raped - should she act to protect herself?

    OK by me. You clearly hate my guts. And given your stated views on the subject - that is absolutely fine with me.
     
  22. Bells Staff Member

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    What do your looks have to do with it?

    You are aware of misogynistic behaviour but you do all that you can to excuse it?

    Well you did.

    Irony.

    In fact, you fully supported the person who abused me for saying I was raped, who accused me of benefiting from it in some way because apparently it is leverage. I'm a fairly good judge of character and the sad thing is that you have lived up to it, horribly well. And frankly, I don't know if you are dishonest enough to be arguing as you are because of who you are arguing with or because you are twisted enough to believe what you are saying.

    Really?

    Damn those women and poor Elliot, shut out by nasty women who didn't want to have sex with him or be his girlfriend.. Who demeaned him by not giving him what he felt was his absolute right - a beautiful blonde woman.

    You didn't just romanticise it. You danced the tango around it with a rose between your teeth.

    Well considering you and Billvon have spent so much time telling us how women should be acting towards all men in society if she wants to prevent being raped, you know, your whole 'don't trust' people spiel, you really need to ask that question?

    Very very easily.

    You have done so much to defend misogyny and advocate for women to prevent being raped, and that's just the tip of the ice berg, you have sadly made it too easy. That is how you are presenting yourself here. As I noted to my colleagues in the back room, this thread his interesting because we are quite literally watching an event unfold whereby we are seeing people bend so far backwards that you're all digging a trench with the back of your head as you do the 'must argue because of who it is, not what it is' limbo. And I don't know whether to laugh or be absolutely disgusted. Perhaps a bit of both?

    Well duh!

    No, really, duh. You're not saying anything that people have not heard before. As you said, it's common sense. And men, women and children exercising this basic level of common sense are still being raped by people they know and trust. What? Do you actually think you are providing this great revelation? You're not. Unfortunately, what you are doing is placing the onus on the woman to not be raped with the expectation that if she does all of what you suggest, she is somehow reducing her chances. 1 in 6 women are rape victims. So what's the deal?

    Really? Now you know how we feel when we read the claptrap that you and others have posted when it comes to rape prevention advocacy.

    It's easy to simply ignore 70% or so of rapes and demand that women alter their behaviour if they want to avoid being raped with the implication that if they fail to comply, then they are somehow deserving or were asking for it. I mean we're down to what women wear now from Billvon. How low are you people willing to go?

    The dark ages called. They have suggested you stop stealing their material about rape, women and misogyny. In short, you are an intelligent woman. Why are you arguing for and supporting such stupid points? I get it, it's because of who you are arguing against. But really? At some point, that will stop being an excuse for your misogyny.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2014
  23. Bells Staff Member

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    Wrong on both counts. Numbers 1, 2 and 6 were actually non-criminals.

    Correct.

    Number 3 is the rapist.
     
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