Words have no Meaning

if you would just say 'no, being objective wont change anything. its all beliefs' i could understand. you would be wrong but i would understand. bringing up freewill makes it sound like i am suggesting something mystical or supernatural.

objectivity is simply being perfectly willing to accept the outcome of ones reasoning whether it is what you want it to be or not. it has the effect of eliminating subjective bias. there is nothing mystical about it.

eliminating the fuzziness from our fuzzy logic thinking is simply a matter of error correction. again nothing mystical here.

I see what you mean but I suggest that you are wrong. The outcome of reasoning is the result of what one has taken into consideration, what one has rejected and accepted. If we ask a dozen people to consider a question, the answers given will not all be the same. They will depend on intelligence, how well one is informed, one's life experience and a host of other subjective factors. Thus, I cannot claim that my reasoning is objective.

You are overlooking the fact that in reasoning you are not necessarily starting from the same place as others. Hence, your reasoning can only be subjective.
 
granpa said:
objectivity is simply being perfectly willing to accept the outcome of ones reasoning
...and that such reasoning is based on observation (of objects) and deduction, not introspection.
Of course, as soon as you build a model of something, you've abstracted it, so you can abstract the abstraction, or think about what the model you have really is, and on until you end up going up the spout of your own abstraction. Sort of an abstraction vortex.
 
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Since this thread has gotten completely offtrack......



Words in themselves have no meaning on their own.
They are just arbitrary symbols used to represent things and concepts.
We give meaning to words by our usage.
...
I doubt that we can come to a mutual agreement on any particular meaning, but you never know.
...


Correct.

"Meaning" is nothing beyond the signification of relevance granted to a notion by its perceptor.

The problem here is that the OP is implicitly contrasting an artificial meaning with an innate meaning. This is further problematized with the ontological assumption of an innate meaning.

Remove the non-subjective ontological status of meaning, and the problem dissolves: a meaning is specifically, and only given.
 
if you would just say 'no, being objective wont change anything. its all beliefs' i could understand. you would be wrong but i would understand. bringing up freewill makes it sound like i am suggesting something mystical or supernatural.

objectivity is simply being perfectly willing to accept the outcome of ones reasoning whether it is what you want it to be or not. it has the effect of eliminating subjective bias. there is nothing mystical about it.

eliminating the fuzziness from our fuzzy logic thinking is simply a matter of error correction. again nothing mystical here.

I agree with you, though I am not sure fuzzy logic is the right term. There are others here who think free will is illusory. But I will leave their objections to them.
 
glaucon said:
"Meaning" is nothing beyond the signification of relevance
Whoah neddy; "nothing beyond" the signification (i.e. meaning) of relevance (i.e. meaning)?? Meaning means nothing if it's "beyond" the meaning of meaning...
glaucon said:
granted to a notion by its perceptor.
It gets granted to a notion, i.e. an idea? You mean we assign meaning to it?
glaucon said:
... the OP is implicitly contrasting an artificial meaning with an innate meaning. This is further problematized with the ontological assumption of an innate meaning.
An innate meaning being "one we get born with", presumably?
glaucon said:
Remove the non-subjective ontological status of meaning, and the problem dissolves: a meaning is specifically, and only given.
You mean, we only assign it subjectively, this meaning thing? Well, sure. But we don't do it by ourselves, we compare notes.
 
Whoah neddy; "nothing beyond" the signification (i.e. meaning) of relevance (i.e. meaning)?? Meaning means nothing if it's "beyond" the meaning of meaning...

lol

You misunderstand.

The signification (which is not meaning) relates the object in question to another.

It gets granted to a notion, i.e. an idea? You mean we assign meaning to it?

Exactly.

An innate meaning being "one we get born with", presumably?

No.
An innate one being the one construed as somehow being a 'part of', or 'property' of the notion in question.

You mean, we only assign it subjectively, this meaning thing? Well, sure. But we don't do it by ourselves, we compare notes.

Exactly.
 
glaucon said:
The signification (which is not meaning) relates the object in question to another.
How does it relate an object to another object? Surely the sign is a symbol or representation of the thing in question, so it has meaning..?
glaucon said:
An innate one being the one construed as somehow being a 'part of', or 'property' of the notion in question.
How is it "a part of" or "a property of" the notion? Either it's there in our heads or it isn't. We recognise a pattern or we don't.
 
How does it relate an object to another object? Surely the sign is a symbol or representation of the thing in question, so it has meaning..?

Not entirely.
The symbol signifies more than itself; indeed, it signifies an other thing as well. This is the action of relation.

How is it "a part of" or "a property of" the notion? Either it's there in our heads or it isn't. We recognise a pattern or we don't.


According to you an I, yes.
According to the OP (and those people who can be described as essentialists), no.
 
Isn't truth really always a value someone superimposes on something ?
Truth is related to meaning, and while it has a basis in reality it is not the same thing.
Truth cannot be objective, it is always subjective.
I think the words you are looking for are 'objective reality'.
 
Well, a symbol relates something, and doesn't have "meaning" entirely, according to glaucon (but I'm not sure what that means).

So when does "meaning" arrive on the scene? If one symbol doesn't do it?
 
Well, a symbol relates something, and doesn't have "meaning" entirely, according to glaucon (but I'm not sure what that means).

So when does "meaning" arrive on the scene? If one symbol doesn't do it?

The question is to who, a symbol can have meaning to someone. And it can have an entirely different meaning to someone else.
A symbol means what we want it to mean. It doesn't mean anything in itself.

Same with words.
 
I think Enmos means that symbols can have various meanings, which means complementary meanings. I don't think conflicting meanings works so well.

Words are meant to convey particular meanings. So words are like containers with messages in them, or something.
 
I think Enmos means that symbols can have various meanings, which means complementary meanings. I don't think conflicting meanings works so well.

Words are meant to convey particular meanings. So words are like containers with messages in them, or something.

Look up any word in the dictionary, I can pretty much guarantee that it will have more than one meaning.
About symbols, the perfect example is the Swastika..

Also, what does the word 'pop' mean to you (just a random example) ?
 
Pop means...........drinks like Coke, pepsi, 7 up, all of them.......

Hey do you want a pop?
Sure what kind?
Coke Zero thanks
 
Pop means...........drinks like Coke, pepsi, 7 up, all of them.......

Hey do you want a pop?
Sure what kind?
Coke Zero thanks

Yes, and pop means something else to me:

Translations

pop [de ~ (v),de ~] (mooi meisje)
doll [the ~]
manequin [the ~]
beautiful girl [the ~]
pretty girl [the ~]
pop [de ~ (v),de ~] (speelpop)
puppet [the ~]
doll [the ~]
pop [de ~ (v),de ~] (speelgoedpop)
dress-stand [the ~]
dummy [the ~]
doll [the ~]

http://www.interglot.com/interglotresult.php
 
I think Enmos means that symbols can have various meanings, which means complementary meanings. I don't think conflicting meanings works so well.

Words are meant to convey particular meanings. So words are like containers with messages in them, or something.

The idea of words or language as a container is a fairly imbedded one in our language. It is a kind of metaphor for language. Metaphors can have strengths and weaknesses, since they tend to highlight certain aspects and hide others. They can in fact be very misleading.
A far more subtle case of how a metaphorical concept can hide an aspect of our experience can be seen in what Michael Reddy has called the "conduit metaphor."' Reddy observes that our language about language is structured roughly by the following complex metaphor:

IDEAS (Of MEANINGS) ARE OBJECTS.

LINGUISTIC EXPRESSIONS ARE CONTAINERS.

COMMUNICATION IS SENDING.

The speaker puts ideas (objects) into words (containers) and sends them (along a conduit) to a bearer who takes the idea/objects out of the word/containers. Reddy documents this with more than a hundred types of expressions in English, which he estimates account for at least 70 percent of the expressions we use for talking about language. Here are some examples:

THE CONDUIT METAPHOR

It's hard to get that idea across to him.

I gave you that idea.

Your reasons came through to us.

It's difficult to put my ideas into words.

When you have a good idea, try to capture it immediately in words.

Try to pack more thought into fewer words.

You can't simply stuff ideas into a sentence any old way.

The meaning is right there in the words.

Don't force your meanings into the wrong words.

His words carry little meaning.

The introduction has a great deal of thought content.

Your words seem hollow.

The sentence is without meaning.

The idea is buried in terribly dense paragraphs.

In examples like these it is far more difficult to see that there is anything hidden by the metaphor or even to see that there is a metaphor here at all. This is so much the conventional way of thinking about language that it is sometimes hard to imagine that it might not fit reality. But if we look at what the conduit metaphor entails, we can see some of the ways in which it masks aspects of the communicative process.

First, the Linguistic EXPRESSIONS ARE CONTAINERS FOR MEANINGS aspect of the conduit metaphor entails that words and sentences have meanings in themselves, independent of any context or speaker. The MEANINGS ARE OBJECTS part of the metaphor, for example, entails that meanings have an existence independent of people and contexts. The part of the metaphor that says LINGUISTICS EXPRESSIONS ARE CONTAINERS FOR MEANING entails that words (and sentences) have meanings, again independent of contexts and speakers. These metaphors are appropriate in many situations--those where context differences don't matter and where all the participants in the conversation understand the sentences in the same way. These two entailments are exemplified by sentences like

The meaning is right there in the words,

which, according to the CONDUIT metaphor, can correctly be said of any sentence. But there are many cases where context does matter. Here is a celebrated one recorded in actual conversation by Pamela Downing:

Please sit in the apple-juice seat.

In isolation this sentence has no meaning at all, since the expression "apple-juice seat" is not a conventional way of referring to any kind of object. But the sentence makes perfect sense in the context in which it was uttered. An overnight guest came down to breakfast. There were four place settings, three with orange juice and one with apple juice. It was clear what the apple-juice seat was. And even the next morning, when there was no apple juice, it was still clear which seat was the apple-juice seat.

In addition to sentences that have no meaning without context, there are cases where a single sentence will mean different things to different people. Consider:

We need new alternative sources of energy.

This means something very different to the president of Mobil Oil from what it means to the president of Friends of the Earth. The meaning is not right there in the sentence--it matters a lot who is saying or listening to the sentence and what his social and political attitudes are. The CONDUIT metaphor does not fit cases where context is required to determine whether the sentence has any meaning at all and, if so, what meaning it has.

These examples show that the metaphorical concepts we have looked at provide us with a partial understanding of what communication, argument, and time are and that, in doing this, they hide other aspects of these concepts. It is important to see that the metaphorical structuring involved here is partial, not total. If it were total, one concept would actually be the other, not merely be understood in terms of it. For example, time isn't really money. If you spend your time trying to do something and it doesn't work, you can't get your time back. There are no time banks. I can give you a lot of time, but you can't give me back the same time, though you can give me back the same amount of time. And so on. Thus, part of a metaphorical concept does not and cannot fit.

On the other hand, metaphorical concepts can be extended beyond the range of ordinary literal ways of thinking and talking into the range of what is called figurative, poetic, colorful, or fanciful thought and language. Thus, if ideas are objects, we can dress them?n up in fancy clothes, juggle them, line them up nice and neat, etc. So when we say that a concept is structured by a metaphors we mean that it is partially structured and that it can be extended in some ways but not others.

I do not think the argument put forth here is the best one, but it gives a taste. Reddy went on to consciously construct an alternative tool-users metaphor and laid out how it might improve our communication skills, partially by humbling us. The meaning is not 'in' the words in that metaphor, so we cannot simply expect the other person to open up the container and take it out.
 
Yes, and pop means something else to me:

Translations

pop [de ~ (v),de ~] (mooi meisje)
doll [the ~]
manequin [the ~]
beautiful girl [the ~]
pretty girl [the ~]
pop [de ~ (v),de ~] (speelpop)
puppet [the ~]
doll [the ~]
pop [de ~ (v),de ~] (speelgoedpop)
dress-stand [the ~]
dummy [the ~]
doll [the ~]

http://www.interglot.com/interglotresult.php

Some further meanings of pop

Dad
Shot as in popgun, a kid's toy
Lemonade
The sound one hears when a balloon bursts
The sound made when one puts one's finger in one's mouth and pulls it out against the cheek
Popeye
Popshop a pawnbroker's shop

As a verb

Pop in/ out/ over/up
pop one's clogs (klompen, ha, ha) to die
pop... to pawn an article
Pop a girl....self-explanatory
 
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