What do you think: Christianity as a teaching is about?

[Pinball1970]

Я не знаю, я ещё не пробовала прожить даже 80, которых вам бы хватило с ваших слов. Возможно, я бы устала ещё раньше, или наоборот, поняла что это за дар - жизнь. Откуда вы знаете, что вам хватило бы 80?

I just picked a number. 80 is realistic for UK, 1 billion years is not realistic but that is what you want and more right? Eternity?

 

[ольга]

I just picked a number. 80 is realistic for UK, 1 billion years is not realistic but that is what you want and more right? Eternity?

Обычно вечности боятся те, кто не ждёт ничего хорошего. Не хотят вечные муки. Им проще было бы исчезнуть. Почему вы не хотите жить вечно?

 

[Pinball1970]

Обычно вечности боятся те, кто не ждёт ничего хорошего. Не хотят вечные муки. Им проще было бы исчезнуть. Почему вы не хотите жить вечно?

I don't fear hell because there is zero evidence of it's existence. As I have said several times, Jesus did not think there was a hell, address that point and stop ignoring it.

 

[DaveC426913]

Usually those who fear eternity are those who do not expect anything good. They do not want eternal torment. It would be easier for them to disappear. Why do you not want to live forever?

The other problem with it is that it's wishful thinking.

Just because you want something to be true doesn't make it true, even if you really, really like the idea.

I want there to be Martians on Mars. It would be really cool. But me wanting it to be true doesn't make it any more true. And it doesn't mean I should make the mistake of thinking it is true. That's wishful thinking.

 

[TheVat]

We know what will happen to us if the soul does not exist. This option has already been well calculated. The only way to find out whether the soul exists, and what it looks like, is to study it.

You could just as well say "the only way to find out whether fairies exist is to study them." To study something presupposes that it is part of our universe. If it is not part of the physical universe, of nature, then how would our instruments ever detect it? How could the hypothesis that souls exist be tested?

Are souls like neutrinos - we just need better observation equipment and we'll find them?

 

[James R]

Consciousness manifests itself through the brain. It can also be said that driving a car is a function of the on-board computer. But in fact, it can be both an independent function of the car (autopilot) and a function of the driver. Damage your computer and the car won't run. These are interrelated things.

In this analogy, the car's "autopilot" is like the human body, and the "driver" is like the soul, right? To make the analogy clearer, we can remove any "smart" functions from the car - like an onboard computer - and just consider the engine, the accelerator, the steering wheel and the other parts of the car. The driver is the thing that chooses where the car drives to, not any of the parts of the car.

Suppose that an alien being visits Earth and observes cars moving around the roads. The alien wonders what determines where the cars go and how they work. As a clumsy experiment, the alien tries removing one part at a time from different cars. When the alien removes the engine, the car doesn't go anywhere any more. When the alien removes the driver, the car can still move, but it does not turn corners or drive from place to place like the other cars that the alien has observed.

After many such experiments, the alien will conclude that the part of the car that controls where it goes, in a complicated way, can only be the driver. Thus, the alien concludes that the driver is the part of the car that is somehow making decisions. Moreover, the alien can investigate and learn that the squishy, biological decision maker part of the car controls the direction the wheels are pointing using another part of the car: the steering wheel. The alien can trace the connections between the steering wheel and the wheels. Similarly, the alien can trace a connection between the driver's foot, the accelerator pedal and the engine, and determine that pushing the pedal causes the engine to revolve faster (via a chain of several other causes).

The alien can keep going, taken the squishy biological beings apart to work out the connections. The alien can discover that the foot pushes the accelerator pedal because of electrical activity in the brain of the squishy biological being, for example.

The point is: if the alien continues this investigation, the alien will never find a soul that connects somehow to cause those electrical impulses in the biological brain. Unless the alien can find a connection and identify a soul as a separate part of the biological system (or one connected remotely, like how the driver's brain is connected remotely to the accelerator pedal via a series of nerves and then the foot) then the alien is justified in not believing that a soul exists.

When it comes to souls, we are all in the same position as the alien. Nobody has ever suggested how any soul could cause a biological brain to do anything at all. Moreover, nobody has ever identified any location for a soul. Souls have never been detected by any scientific equipment.

Why, then, should we think that souls are real?

 

[Pinball1970]

Обычно вечности боятся те, кто не ждёт ничего хорошего. Не хотят вечные муки. Им проще было бы исчезнуть. Почему вы не хотите жить вечно?

The Jews of that time did NOT think there was a soul or a heaven or hell that dead people go to.
Why do you keep ignoring this point?

 

[James R]

I am interested in something else here - how does a person distinguish himself from the world around him? How does he understand that he is exactly him, and not a tree in the forest? How does he self-identify?

That's a complicated question and it is off the main topic of this thread.

Different parts of our bodies are interconnected. There is a network of nerves, for example. The cells themselves communicate chemically as well as electrically.

Our mental concept of a "self" is function of the brain. The boundaries of the physical self are related to the boundaries of our physical bodies, because outside our bodies is where things like sensations from nerve receptors stop.

The idea of the "self" as the disembodied "driver" of the body may very well be an illusion. The "self" is just a story the brain tells itself to present the convenient illusion that that the body is a single, unified thing, when in reality lots of things are going on "behind the scenes" in our bodies that we are not at all conscious of.

The fact that we can think, unlike a stone, for example.

We have a built in neural network that enables us to think.

What makes you want something? Are these always only external causes? Do you have a will? If so, what is will?

There are "hard wired" instincts that drive us to sustain our bodies and to try to reproduce. We want food because without it our bodies and brains will die. We are genetically programmed to want to pass on our genes to the next generation.

Other wants can be a product of our highly complex brains. They are activated by our experiences, our genetics, epigenetic influences, external factors like interpersonal interactions, and more.

Clearly, we have a will. We decide to do this thing or the other thing. Whether we have free will is another question entirely. That is a whole other philosophical can of worms.

We know what will happen to us if the soul does not exist. This option is already well calculated. The only way to know if a soul exists, and what it looks like, is to study it.

How do you propose we study it?

First, we need to isolate a sample of soul for study. Where can we find such a sample?

Can we work out where the soul is by finding how it links to the brain to cause the foot to push the accelerator pedal? How?

 

[ольга]

You could just as well say "the only way to find out whether fairies exist is to study them." To study something presupposes that it is part of our universe. If it is not part of the physical universe, of nature, then how would our instruments ever detect it? How could the hypothesis that souls exist be tested?

Are souls like neutrinos - we just need better observation equipment and we'll find them?

Хороший вопрос. Очевидно, прежде чем что то искать, нужно определиться с тем, что именно мы ищем.

 

[ольга]

In this analogy, the car's "autopilot" is like the human body, and the "driver" is like the soul, right? To make the analogy clearer, we can remove any "smart" functions from the car - like an onboard computer - and just consider the engine, the accelerator, the steering wheel and the other parts of the car. The driver is the thing that chooses where the car drives to, not any of the parts of the car.

Suppose that an alien being visits Earth and observes cars moving around the roads. The alien wonders what determines where the cars go and how they work. As a clumsy experiment, the alien tries removing one part at a time from different cars. When the alien removes the engine, the car doesn't go anywhere any more. When the alien removes the driver, the car can still move, but it does not turn corners or drive from place to place like the other cars that the alien has observed.

After many such experiments, the alien will conclude that the part of the car that controls where it goes, in a complicated way, can only be the driver. Thus, the alien concludes that the driver is the part of the car that is somehow making decisions. Moreover, the alien can investigate and learn that the squishy, biological decision maker part of the car controls the direction the wheels are pointing using another part of the car: the steering wheel. The alien can trace the connections between the steering wheel and the wheels. Similarly, the alien can trace a connection between the driver's foot, the accelerator pedal and the engine, and determine that pushing the pedal causes the engine to revolve faster (via a chain of several other causes).

The alien can keep going, taken the squishy biological beings apart to work out the connections. The alien can discover that the foot pushes the accelerator pedal because of electrical activity in the brain of the squishy biological being, for example.

The point is: if the alien continues this investigation, the alien will never find a soul that connects somehow to cause those electrical impulses in the biological brain. Unless the alien can find a connection and identify a soul as a separate part of the biological system (or one connected remotely, like how the driver's brain is connected remotely to the accelerator pedal via a series of nerves and then the foot) then the alien is justified in not believing that a soul exists.

When it comes to souls, we are all in the same position as the alien. Nobody has ever suggested how any soul could cause a biological brain to do anything at all. Moreover, nobody has ever identified any location for a soul. Souls have never been detected by any scientific equipment.

Why, then, should we think that souls are real?

Я полагаю, нам нужно определить где находится "центр принятия решений"? И что влияет на принятие того или иного решения. Попробовать посмотреть на реакции мозга при решении задач, напрямую не касающихся работы тела?

 

[ольга]

The other problem with it is that it's wishful thinking.

Just because you want something to be true doesn't make it true, even if you really, really like the idea.

I want there to be Martians on Mars. It would be really cool. But me wanting it to be true doesn't make it any more true. And it doesn't mean I should make the mistake of thinking it is true. That's wishful thinking.

Чтобы это узнать вам нужно слетать на Марс. Свяжитесь с Маском, он вам поможет.

 

[ольга]

The Jews of that time did NOT think there was a soul or a heaven or hell that dead people go to.
Why do you keep ignoring this point?

Потому что в Евангелии есть притча про умерших Лазаря и богача. Один там в Раю, а другой в Аду.

 

[ольга]

That's a complicated question and it is off the main topic of this thread.

Different parts of our bodies are interconnected. There is a network of nerves, for example. The cells themselves communicate chemically as well as electrically.

Our mental concept of a "self" is function of the brain. The boundaries of the physical self are related to the boundaries of our physical bodies, because outside our bodies is where things like sensations from nerve receptors stop.

The idea of the "self" as the disembodied "driver" of the body may very well be an illusion. The "self" is just a story the brain tells itself to present the convenient illusion that that the body is a single, unified thing, when in reality lots of things are going on "behind the scenes" in our bodies that we are not at all conscious of.

We have a built in neural network that enables us to think.

There are "hard wired" instincts that drive us to sustain our bodies and to try to reproduce. We want food because without it our bodies and brains will die. We are genetically programmed to want to pass on our genes to the next generation.

Other wants can be a product of our highly complex brains. They are activated by our experiences, our genetics, epigenetic influences, external factors like interpersonal interactions, and more.

Clearly, we have a will. We decide to do this thing or the other thing. Whether we have free will is another question entirely. That is a whole other philosophical can of worms.

How do you propose we study it?

First, we need to isolate a sample of soul for study. Where can we find such a sample?

Can we work out where the soul is by finding how it links to the brain to cause the foot to push the accelerator pedal? How?

Каким образом работают протезы, управляемые силой мысли?

 

[ольга]

That's a complicated question and it is off the main topic of this thread.

Different parts of our bodies are interconnected. There is a network of nerves, for example. The cells themselves communicate chemically as well as electrically.

Our mental concept of a "self" is function of the brain. The boundaries of the physical self are related to the boundaries of our physical bodies, because outside our bodies is where things like sensations from nerve receptors stop.

The idea of the "self" as the disembodied "driver" of the body may very well be an illusion. The "self" is just a story the brain tells itself to present the convenient illusion that that the body is a single, unified thing, when in reality lots of things are going on "behind the scenes" in our bodies that we are not at all conscious of.

We have a built in neural network that enables us to think.

There are "hard wired" instincts that drive us to sustain our bodies and to try to reproduce. We want food because without it our bodies and brains will die. We are genetically programmed to want to pass on our genes to the next generation.

Other wants can be a product of our highly complex brains. They are activated by our experiences, our genetics, epigenetic influences, external factors like interpersonal interactions, and more.

Clearly, we have a will. We decide to do this thing or the other thing. Whether we have free will is another question entirely. That is a whole other philosophical can of worms.

How do you propose we study it?

First, we need to isolate a sample of soul for study. Where can we find such a sample?

Can we work out where the soul is by finding how it links to the brain to cause the foot to push the accelerator pedal? How?

Джеймс, может показаться, что этот вопрос не относится к теме, но на самом деле относится напрямую. Как мы определяем, что вот этот человек добрый, а этот злой? Этот, по нашему мнению заслуживает быть в Раю, а этому в Аду самое место? Мы смотрим, насколько человек обладает эмпатией. Что такое эмпатия? Я полагаю, что это функция мозга, которая помогает нам понять других, "примерив" их на себя. И таким образом, мы делая что то другому, автоматически делаем это себе. Мысленно делаем, но для мозга это много значит. Религии это давно заметили. Отсюда христианские заповеди: "возлюби ближнего своего, как самого себя". Отсюда в буддизме: "не вреди ничему живому не мыслью, ни словом, ни делом". Потому что этим самым навредишь и себе самому. Таким образом религии помогали в выживании. Но некоторые люди эмпатии лишены. И это нужно изучать. Что отсутствует в их мозгах? Это врождённое или приобретённое?

Понятие о душе появляется с понятием индивидуальности. Возможно, на каком то этапе понадобилось отделить себя от окружающего мира, чтобы избежать ошибок других, не перенять их автоматически. Это так, мои мысли вслух... Вообще, и в христианстве, и в буддизме, человечество - это единый организм. "Все едины во Христе", "не может рука сказать ноге - ты мне не нужна, но все суть одно тело", и т.п. Т.е. мы являемся как бы клетками одного организма. Эта сложная тема, и мы вступаем на "тонкий лёд". Тут прослеживается ещё одна интересная взаимосвязь: наше поведение зависит от окружающего мира, от всей Вселенной по большому счёту. Но и мы влияем на Вселенную теми или иными своими действиями. Интересная взаимосвязь.

 

[Pinball1970]

Потому что в Евангелии есть притча про умерших Лазаря и богача. Один там в Раю, а другой в Аду.

Key word in the story, Hades. What does that have to do with Jewish culture?

 

[Pinball1970]

Джеймс, может показаться, что этот вопрос не относится к теме, но на самом деле относится напрямую. Как мы определяем, что вот этот человек добрый, а этот злой? Этот, по нашему мнению заслуживает быть в Раю, а этому в Аду самое место? Мы смотрим, насколько человек обладает эмпатией. Что такое эмпатия? Я полагаю, что это функция мозга, которая помогает нам понять других, "примерив" их на себя. И таким образом, мы делая что то другому, автоматически делаем это себе. Мысленно делаем, но для мозга это много значит. Религии это давно заметили. Отсюда христианские заповеди: "возлюби ближнего своего, как самого себя". Отсюда в буддизме: "не вреди ничему живому не мыслью, ни словом, ни делом". Потому что этим самым навредишь и себе самому. Таким образом религии помогали в выживании. Но некоторые люди эмпатии лишены. И это нужно изучать. Что отсутствует в их мозгах? Это врождённое или приобретённое?

Понятие о душе появляется с понятием индивидуальности. Возможно, на каком то этапе понадобилось отделить себя от окружающего мира, чтобы избежать ошибок других, не перенять их автоматически. Это так, мои мысли вслух... Вообще, и в христианстве, и в буддизме, человечество - это единый организм. "Все едины во Христе", "не может рука сказать ноге - ты мне не нужна, но все суть одно тело", и т.п. Т.е. мы являемся как бы клетками одного организма. Эта сложная тема, и мы вступаем на "тонкий лёд". Тут прослеживается ещё одна интересная взаимосвязь: наше поведение зависит от окружающего мира, от всей Вселенной по большому счёту. Но и мы влияем на Вселенную теми или иными своими действиями. Интересная взаимосвязь.

Nope. We are social animals and have evolved that way. To be co-operative, show empathy and help others. To be completely selfish is not a good Evolutionary stable strategy (Maynard Smith ESS) help the group help the family help oneself.
Baboons, Chimps and other primates do this without Jesus and has been observed as a fact.
Friendships, mates, love, hate, looking after children, other mothers children, protecting the tribe, fighting for the tribe, dying for the tribe.
This is simply biological evolution and more recently, tens of 1000s of years social evolution humans.

 

[ольга]

Key word in the story, Hades. What does that have to do with Jewish culture?

Что такое Аид? Это же у древних греков?

Nope. We are social animals and have evolved that way. To be co-operative, show empathy and help others. To be completely selfish is not a good Evolutionary stable strategy (Maynard Smith ESS) help the group help the family help oneself.
Baboons, Chimps and other primates do this without Jesus and has been observed as a fact.
Friendships, mates, love, hate, looking after children, other mothers children, protecting the tribe, fighting for the tribe, dying for the tribe.
This is simply biological evolution and more recently, tens of 1000s of years social evolution humans.

Я о механизме эмпатии. Почему мы чувствуем сострадание? Какое нам дело до других?

 

[Pinball1970]

Что такое Аид? Это же у древних греков?

Yes, Luke was written about the year 80CE and his Gospel shows a shift from Mark and Matthew.

Hebrews had no concept of soul and no heaven and hell, when you die that is it, you go to Sheol, the grave the pit.

The Greeks had Platonic thinking part of which was an immortal soul which lives on and Hades and the underworld.

Apocalyptic thinking about 200 years before Jesus was the concept of punishment and reward for a good or bad life but this was not a soul heaven and hell.

It was a physical resurrection of the dead to be judged then given the kingdom on earth, not heaven or destroyed for ever for a wicked life.

These concepts began to meet around Jesus time and beyond, so an afterlife and eternal soul BUT with a reward or punishment. Jesus did not think this, Luke may have and he wrote that.

Mark and Matthew were you die and will be judged after the resurrection, Luke shifted to the Greek side of die and go to heaven or hell.

Paul started out as apocalyptic but shifted time went on and the Kingdom did not come, 1st Thessalonians/ 2nd Corinthians = Resurrection. By 2nd Corinthians Philippians = die go to Christ, in his presence (or not)

 

[Pinball1970]

Я о механизме эмпатии. Почему мы чувствуем сострадание? Какое нам дело до других?

Animals have emotions what we call them does not matter. Why would a Chimpanzee look after another's child? Kiss it? groom it? Protect it? feed it?
These animals show all the emotions we have. So they should do we evolved from the same ancestor about 7 million years ago.

 

[DaveC426913]

To find out, you need to fly to Mars. Contact Musk, he will help you.

Well, to find out if the soul exists, you'd have to die.

Since you can't know beforehand - and you can't come back after finding out - you might as well live your life as if this is all there is.