What do you think: Christianity as a teaching is about?

[DaveC426913]

Well, God doesn't say we'll just disappear ("for from dust you were taken, and to dust you will return"). He gives us hope for eternal life. And you don't give us any hope. At best, we're just manure for future generations. A sad prospect.

I guess if its sad for you. If theres no eternal life then you're being hoodwinked though, right?

Personally, I don't need to believe in eternity to live the life I've got.

 

[ольга]

I guess if its sad for you. If theres no eternal life then you're being hoodwinked though, right?

Personally, I don't need to believe in eternity to live the life I've got.

А мне этого мало. Жизнь такая штука - проходит быстро и имеет свойство заканчиваться неожиданно. Да и вообще - что мы знаем о времени, чтобы рассуждать о вечности так категорично? Что мы знаем о жизни, если до сих пор даже не знаем о том, как появилась клетка? Чтобы что то отвергать нужно быть хорошо об этом осведомлённым. Я более честна, когда не отвергаю категорично то, чего не знаю.

 

[Pinball1970]

Без веры в Бога всё это не имеет будущего.

My family has no future? They would beg to differ. We look forward to the future.
Or do you mean our lives are meaningless? It certainly does not feel that way.
Or do you mean when we die we will not live forever in heaven? We might end up in hell? I do not believe there is a heaven and hell or soul as I said. Neither did Jesus if You know anything about first century apocalyptic Jews.

 

[Pinball1970]

А мне этого мало. Жизнь такая штука - проходит быстро и имеет свойство заканчиваться неожиданно. Да и вообще - что мы знаем о времени, чтобы рассуждать о вечности так категорично? Что мы знаем о жизни, если до сих пор даже не знаем о том, как появилась клетка? Чтобы что то отвергать нужно быть хорошо об этом осведомлённым. Я более честна, когда не отвергаю категорично то, чего не знаю.

"And that’s not enough for me. Life is such a thing - it goes by quickly and tends to end unexpectedly."

So make the most of it while you can!

"And in general, what do we know about time to talk about eternity so categorically?"

Is that a reason to believe in heaven?

" What do we know about life if we still don’t even know how the cell came into being?"

We know a lot but we don't know everything, is that a reason to think a good did it?

"To reject something you need to be well aware of it. I am more honest when I don’t outright reject what I don’t know."

Yes, we weigh up the evidence. The evidence for god, for me, did not stack up.

 

[James R]

Well, God does not say that we will simply disappear ("because you were taken from the dust, and to dust you will return"). He gives us the hope of everlasting life. And you don't give any hope. At best, we are just manure for future generations. A sad prospect.

It's great that your religion gives you hope. But how can you be sure it is not offering false hope?

Would you rather believe in what is true, or in what is comforting?

And that's not enough for me. Life is such a thing - it passes quickly and tends to end unexpectedly. And in general - what do we know about time to talk about eternity so categorically?

That's a good question. What do you know that makes you so confident that you'll live on after your bodily death, by going to heaven? (Or, maybe, you'll go to hell to be tortured for eternity.)

What do we know about life if we still don't even know how the cell appeared?

We know quite a lot about life, from the perspective of biology. Modern medicine, for example, relies on that knowledge.

It doesn't make sense to say "We don't know how the first cell appeared, so therefore God must have caused it." It doesn't help to insert God every time you don't know something.

To reject something, you need to be well aware of it. I am more honest when I do not categorically reject what I do not know.

I'm more interested in why you accept Christianity. What convinced you of the truth of Christianity?

 

[ольга]

It's great that your religion gives you hope. But how can you be sure it is not offering false hope?

Would you rather believe in what is true, or in what is comforting?

That's a good question. What do you know that makes you so confident that you'll live on after your bodily death, by going to heaven? (Or, maybe, you'll go to hell to be tortured for eternity.)

We know quite a lot about life, from the perspective of biology. Modern medicine, for example, relies on that knowledge.

It doesn't make sense to say "We don't know how the first cell appeared, so therefore God must have caused it." It doesn't help to insert God every time you don't know something.


I'm more interested in why you accept Christianity. What convinced you of the truth of Christianity?

Я бы предпочла знать истину. Даже если она не будет совпадать с моими ожиданиями.

Я не знаю, где я окажусь после смерти. Я не знаю, что будет с моим сознанием. Я хочу быть с теми, кого люблю, где бы это ни было.

Точно так же это работает и в обратном направлении: не нужно отвергать Бога каждый раз, когда мы чего то не знаем.

Вы умный человек, наверняка поняли, что я изучала разные религии. Мои предки были разных вероисповеданий. И наверное, ортодоксы из каждой религии побили бы меня камнями, за не совсем совпадающие точки зрения на некоторые вещи. Знаете, в вопросах веры всё происходит так же, как и во всех остальных вопросах: если вас интересует квантовая механика - вы будете делать многое, чтобы её понять. Если вам нравится музыка - вы будете её слушать. Если вы тянетесь к Богу - он вам поможет понять истину.

 

[James R]

Olga:

It's good to hear that you prefer to know the truth than to believe in a comforting falsehood.

I don't know what will happen when I die, either. I expect that nothing special will happen. The machine that is my body will stop operating and that will be the end of me. I could be wrong, of course, but I don't find any arguments that people put for the existence of an afterlife to be convincing.

I am an atheist. I do not believe that any gods actually exist. But I'm not closed to the idea. I simply find the suggested evidences for the existence to God - and all the philosophical arguments and such - to be unconvincing. In addition to that, the gods of the established religions seem in many ways to be quite immoral, if we are to judge them based on the content of the holy books of those religions. And those books themselves show many signs of being written by flawed human beings, rather than being the Word of God.

You say that God helps some people to understand the truth. How does he do that, exactly? Does he talk to them? Does he perform miracles for them? Does he answer their prayers? If any of these things happens, why is the evidence for such things so underwhelming?

 

[ольга]

Olga:

It's good to hear that you prefer to know the truth than to believe in a comforting falsehood.

I don't know what will happen when I die, either. I expect that nothing special will happen. The machine that is my body will stop operating and that will be the end of me. I could be wrong, of course, but I don't find any arguments that people put for the existence of an afterlife to be convincing.

I am an atheist. I do not believe that any gods actually exist. But I'm not closed to the idea. I simply find the suggested evidences for the existence to God - and all the philosophical arguments and such - to be unconvincing. In addition to that, the gods of the established religions seem in many ways to be quite immoral, if we are to judge them based on the content of the holy books of those religions. And those books themselves show many signs of being written by flawed human beings, rather than being the Word of God.

You say that God helps some people to understand the truth. How does he do that, exactly? Does he talk to them? Does he perform miracles for them? Does he answer their prayers? If any of these things happens, why is the evidence for such things so underwhelming?

Наше тело работает как хорошая машина, она способна многое делать без нашего участия, причём делает это намного лучше. Например, попробуйте идти быстрым шагом или бежать. Вы без проблем это сделаете. А теперь попробуйте идти, мысленно контролируя каждый шаг. Получается уже не так хорошо. Сознательное вмешалось в работу бессознательного. Вот к этому сознательному есть вопросы - что это такое? Если бы вы изучали некоторые восточные практики, то знали бы о техники выноса сознания за пределы тела. Иногда это происходит и у обычных людей, с этими практиками не знакомыми. Я общалась как то с одним человеком(причём он называл себя атеистом), и он рассказал одну случившуюся с ним историю. Как то он попал в драку, в которой его ударили ножом. Он вдруг увидел своё тело со стороны, увидел как оно яростно отбивается от нападавших, как подбегают другие люди. Он всё запомнил в деталях. Его спасли. Душа - это наше сознательное. Тело - это наше бессознательное. Мы можем понять как работает тело. И мало знаем о душе.

Возможно, это всегда что то глубоко личное. Об этом не говорят.

 

[ольга]

"And that’s not enough for me. Life is such a thing - it goes by quickly and tends to end unexpectedly."

So make the most of it while you can!

"And in general, what do we know about time to talk about eternity so categorically?"

Is that a reason to believe in heaven?

" What do we know about life if we still don’t even know how the cell came into being?"

We know a lot but we don't know everything, is that a reason to think a good did it?

"To reject something you need to be well aware of it. I am more honest when I don’t outright reject what I don’t know."

Yes, we weigh up the evidence. The evidence for god, for me, did not stack up.

Какие именно доказательства были бы для вас достаточными?

 

[ольга]

My family has no future? They would beg to differ. We look forward to the future.
Or do you mean our lives are meaningless? It certainly does not feel that way.
Or do you mean when we die we will not live forever in heaven? We might end up in hell? I do not believe there is a heaven and hell or soul as I said. Neither did Jesus if You know anything about first century apocalyptic Jews.

Если вы о будущем тела, то оно известно - в гробу в белых тапочках. Возможны различные варианты драпировки.

 

[James R]

Olga:

Our body works like a good machine, it is able to do a lot of things without our participation, and it does it much better. For example, try walking at a brisk pace or running. You can do it without any problems. Now try to walk, mentally controlling each step. It doesn't turn out so well. The conscious interfered with the work of the unconscious.

Okay.

There are questions to this conscious - what is it?

All the evidence suggests that consciousness is a function of the brain. Damage the brain in particular ways and the consciousness goes away or is changed in other ways.

If you studied some Eastern practices, you would know about the technique of taking consciousness outside the body. Sometimes this happens to ordinary people who are not familiar with these practices.

I am not aware of any good evidence that shows that a person's consciousness can exist independently of their body, including after death.

I once communicated with one person (and he called himself an atheist), and he told one story that happened to him. Somehow he got into a fight in which he was stabbed. He suddenly saw his body from the side, saw how it fiercely fought off the attackers, how other people ran up. He remembered everything in detail. He was rescued.

The brain, when it is traumatised, can do all kinds of strange things. There are many reports of "out of body experiences" (including many "near death" experiences), but there has never been good evidence that people actually go out of their bodies. For instance, nobody ever sees something they could not have seen from inside their body. People report such things, but there is never good independent confirmation.

The soul is our conscious.

What makes you think we have a soul?

When I want to move my arm, is there a message that goes from my soul into my body and then somehow gets transformed into the nerve impulses that cause the muscles in my arm to contract? If so, then how does that transformation process work? How does the soul cause the necessary electrical impulses to be produced? And how can we tell that it's the soul that is the root cause, rather than just the brain? Note: we can observe the brain firing off nerve impulses, using real-time medical imaging. We can't image the soul, however.

The body is our unconscious.

It is well understood that certain functions of our brains are automatic and unconscious. We don't have to think about breathing all the time, or about causing the heart to pump blood. But other areas of the brain have been found to fire off nerve impulses as a result of conscious intentions and such.

We can understand how the body works. And we know little about the soul.

Do you think it is possible that the soul doesn't exist?

 

[ольга]

Olga:

Okay.

All the evidence suggests that consciousness is a function of the brain. Damage the brain in particular ways and the consciousness goes away or is changed in other ways.

I am not aware of any good evidence that shows that a person's consciousness can exist independently of their body, including after death.

The brain, when it is traumatised, can do all kinds of strange things. There are many reports of "out of body experiences" (including many "near death" experiences), but there has never been good evidence that people actually go out of their bodies. For instance, nobody ever sees something they could not have seen from inside their body. People report such things, but there is never good independent confirmation.

What makes you think we have a soul?

When I want to move my arm, is there a message that goes from my soul into my body and then somehow gets transformed into the nerve impulses that cause the muscles in my arm to contract? If so, then how does that transformation process work? How does the soul cause the necessary electrical impulses to be produced? And how can we tell that it's the soul that is the root cause, rather than just the brain? Note: we can observe the brain firing off nerve impulses, using real-time medical imaging. We can't image the soul, however.

It is well understood that certain functions of our brains are automatic and unconscious. We don't have to think about breathing all the time, or about causing the heart to pump blood. But other areas of the brain have been found to fire off nerve impulses as a result of conscious intentions and such.

Do you think it is possible that the soul doesn't exist?

Сознание проявляет себя через мозг. Так же можно сказать, что управление автомобилем - это функция бортового компьютера. Но на самом деле это может быть как самостоятельная функция автомобиля (автопилот), так и функция водителя. Повредите компьютер, и машина не поедет. Это взаимосвязанные вещи.

Как должно выглядеть такое доказательство?

Мне тут интересно другое - как человек вообще выделяет себя из окружающего мира? Как он понимает, что он - это именно он, а не дерево в лесу? Как он самоидентифицируется?

То, что мы умеем мыслить, в отличии от камня, например.

Что заставляет вас хотеть что либо? Всегда ли это только внешние причины? Обладаете ли вы волей? Если да, то что это такое - воля?

Мы знаем, что будет с нами, если души не существует. Этот вариант уже хорошо просчитан. Единственный способ узнать сушествует ли душа, и как она выглядит - это заняться изучением этого.

 

[Pinball1970]

Какие именно доказательства были бы для вас достаточными?

I don't know, Jesus would know though right? Yhwh the father knows? Neither of them have decided to provide any evidence that would convince me. Just the opposite in fact, all the evidence suggests ancient men made stuff up about gods, goddesses and the supernatural.

 

[Pinball1970]

Если вы о будущем тела, то оно известно - в гробу в белых тапочках. Возможны различные варианты драпировки.

"If you are talking about the future of the body, then it is known - in a coffin in white slippers. Various drapery options are possible."

Yes and like Jesus I do not think that there is a soul which lives on or is disconnected to the body in anyway.

There has been absolutely zero evidence that I have read/seen that convinces me that once a person is dead a soul magically lives on.

 

[Pinball1970]

Если вы о будущем тела, то оно известно - в гробу в белых тапочках. Возможны различные варианты драпировки.

Do you not think that living forever is a little excessive? A lot to ask? Vulgar even? 80 years or so is enough for me I am not greedy. Children can get childhood disease and die, lead a life of hunger and misery, child hood cancer, months of treatment, agonising tests fear confusion then finally death, I have watched that, before they can even read or write properly, find out about the world, travel, meet some body to love (sounds like a song) have kids themselves. Instead dead at 10, dead at 2. How many years do you want? 100? A million plus? Eternity? Why?

 

[Pinball1970]

Сознание проявляет себя через мозг. Так же можно сказать, что управление автомобилем - это функция бортового компьютера. Но на самом деле это может быть как самостоятельная функция автомобиля (автопилот), так и функция водителя. Повредите компьютер, и машина не поедет. Это взаимосвязанные вещи.

Как должно выглядеть такое доказательство?

Мне тут интересно другое - как человек вообще выделяет себя из окружающего мира? Как он понимает, что он - это именно он, а не дерево в лесу? Как он самоидентифицируется?

То, что мы умеем мыслить, в отличии от камня, например.

Что заставляет вас хотеть что либо? Всегда ли это только внешние причины? Обладаете ли вы волей? Если да, то что это такое - воля?

Мы знаем, что будет с нами, если души не существует. Этот вариант уже хорошо просчитан. Единственный способ узнать сушествует ли душа, и как она выглядит - это заняться изучением этого.

"I’m interested in something else here - how does a person generally distinguish himself from the world around him? How does he understand that he is he and not a tree in the forest? How does he identify himself?"
Start a new thread if you are interested in the philosophical side, brain in a vat thing.

"What makes you want something? Are these always only external reasons? Do you have a will? If yes, then what is it - will?We know what will happen to us if the soul does not exist."

We have zero evidence of a soul. Why do you think we have a soul when Jesus did not think that?

 

[ольга]

I don't know, Jesus would know though right? Yhwh the father knows? Neither of them have decided to provide any evidence that would convince me. Just the opposite in fact, all the evidence suggests ancient men made stuff up about gods, goddesses and the supernatural.

Почему это должно быть чем то сверхъестественным? Христианство не говорит о чудесах.

 

[ольга]

"If you are talking about the future of the body, then it is known - in a coffin in white slippers. Various drapery options are possible."

Yes and like Jesus I do not think that there is a soul which lives on or is disconnected to the body in anyway.

There has been absolutely zero evidence that I have read/seen that convinces me that once a person is dead a soul magically lives on.

Давайте для начала поищем её (душу) здесь при жизни тела. Вы пробовали?

 

[ольга]

Do you not think that living forever is a little excessive? A lot to ask? Vulgar even? 80 years or so is enough for me I am not greedy. Children can get childhood disease and die, lead a life of hunger and misery, child hood cancer, months of treatment, agonising tests fear confusion then finally death, I have watched that, before they can even read or write properly, find out about the world, travel, meet some body to love (sounds like a song) have kids themselves. Instead dead at 10, dead at 2. How many years do you want? 100? A million plus? Eternity? Why?

Я не знаю, я ещё не пробовала прожить даже 80, которых вам бы хватило с ваших слов. Возможно, я бы устала ещё раньше, или наоборот, поняла что это за дар - жизнь. Откуда вы знаете, что вам хватило бы 80?

 

[ольга]

"I’m interested in something else here - how does a person generally distinguish himself from the world around him? How does he understand that he is he and not a tree in the forest? How does he identify himself?"
Start a new thread if you are interested in the philosophical side, brain in a vat thing.

"What makes you want something? Are these always only external reasons? Do you have a will? If yes, then what is it - will?We know what will happen to us if the soul does not exist."

We have zero evidence of a soul. Why do you think we have a soul when Jesus did not think that?

Я не знаю, что такое "мозг в колбе". Если только вы не называете так собственную черепную коробку.