God and free thought

I asked her to try and make Chagur understand her point of view, remember we do not have to change each other completely to meet on mutual ground, but if we can agree on some things we have come a long way......it's not as simple as saying Chagur has a different point of view so leave him alone........NO we want to get into his mind and understand WHY he disagrees with us...............what do YOU think Counter???


I think Chagur is intelligent enough to recognize when others are "trying to make" him do anything. I respect his right to respond to such as he thinks proper.

I don't think in terms of changing others. I understand that this is impossible. This kind of change comes from within an individual. The more we try to make someone do or think anything, the more resistance we are likely to encounter. It's the way the universe works. Even if we do get them to "change" to some degree, the more valuable, real and long-lasting change comes about when they do so on their own. I try to look at things realisitically.

I also think that part of the solution to "resolving" any difference in opinions includes truly understanding how recognizing the fact that there are differences is significant enough in its own right.

Speaking of rights, I don't think I have the right to demand that others explain themselves simply because they have a differing viewpoint. --or to belittle them when they don't explain themselves.

I also understand the futility of trying to discuss something with people who are more interested in "making" others accept their view.

Feel free to disagree.


Speaking of rights, I don't think I have the right to demand that others explain themselves simply because they have a differing viewpoint. --or to belittle them when they don't explain themselves.

In regards to that paragraph......how do you EVER have a conversation with someone? Are you telling me that when you do not agree with someone ......you just say, OK that is the way you feel ...... and walk away? I don't get it.

Part of the thrill of being alive IS expression, in whatever form it reveals itself.

Don't you like to debate with people? or do you just hang around with people who agree with you all the time? I don't get it?

Are you watching Bebelina? There are important things going on here..........

I do not demand the that someone explain themselves.....what do you want me to do? Talk to Chagur about the weather? In regards to differences and accepting them, you are correct!!! depending on what we are discussing, I would never claim the right to change someone else.......for ex: If someone believes there is NO God I respect that, however it does not mean that I will not debate it......(Chagur started with the sarcasim, I asked that he stop it because it Alienates....) OF course then I followed up with my own sarcasim......when I said, "Sarcasim is the recourse oif a weak mind"..........I could help myself,

I respect everyones differences.....however, this does not mean I will not debate issues and take issues to the MAT.......

So what do you THINK Counter, what do you think about the abortion issue?,,,,,,stop sidestepping the conversation.....

I agree. I don't think you get it. I'm not sidestepping the conversation.

I'm turning my back on it.


Ah, yes ....

I have worn many 'hats' over the years and no doubt will wear a few more before I say "Thanks all - Its been fun, but now it's time to leave." There have even been moments when some considered me to be a 'kind, compassionate, caring individual'. And then there were moments when I was considered by some to be 'the blue eyed devil' or 'evil incarnate'. So 'ogre' or 'dictator of the world' are merely hats to be worn temporarily, when circumstances dictate. In a sense, I have worn them before. ;)

Please don't try so hard to convince me that you are a close minded bigot who will go to any lengths to made others conform to your warped view of the world.
she needs to reach out to others, understand them, make them see that she has a strong point based upon solid ground.
I asked her to try and make Chagur understand her point of view
It is statements like the above that have led to bloodshed when momentous issues (such as which end of the egg to crack) inflame the normally docile, ignorant masses.

Take care.

PS There is a big difference between 'discussing' different points of view and 'arguing' them. Since the latter appears to be your preferred mode of communicating, teerum - Good Bye.
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Ok Guys.....I agree with everything you have to say.......FEEL Better now?

Yes Chagur My view of the world is warped.........because I do NOT agree with you that an unborn baby is nothing more than a parasite.....and you never explained why.....

and I am a closed minded !!!!! HMMM......look up at the night sky Chagur,,,,,,,,,you did not create it.........and do not have the right to explain it....

No war Chagur, you can do whatever you want however you want....and I would break bread with you anytime....but that does not mean that I will agree with you on this subject.

What has this dicussion turned in to? Wether it´s right or wrong to try to convince Chagur? :rolleyes:...:D

Well guys, it´s more a question of communicating and interacting with other humans for the purpose of learning. And as I said before , it´s a two way street. What you give is what you get.
We need eachother to learn and grow, to live.:)
It´s an individual choice wether you want to stand up for what you believe in, or not. You feel better if you do, and worse if you don´t.
To turn your back on the world means that you are neglecting your need for communication. To live as a hermit, can however be very fruitful, for shorter periods at the time, but to just turn your back on certain issues because they are "too hot to handle" , that is neglect. You are then putting yourself down by not trusting yourself enough to have a valid opinion in the matter. If you do have an opinion, but are afraid to use it, then that indicates that you instinctively know that your opinion will not be well met by others. Then perhaps you should re-examine your opinion, and why you have it. Or be bold and share it, and learn from the responses. It is totally up to you. :)

Thank you Bebelina, I thought I was going insane.......Chagur and Counterbalance hate me for some reason.

I know that I may try to put people on the spot to debate, but I do not mean it in a negative way. I just like to get to the bottom of what someone is thinking......

You are wonderful.............

Sorry Chagur, sorry Counter. I did not mean to alienate either of you.
Hey counter, why not just tell us how you feel about the issue?

I promise I will discuss, not argue....
Teerum, calm down. Your posts are jumping out at me with nervous jitters.
Damn, now my fingers are shaking too :)

I´d have to agree with chagur here, speaking biologically a child is like a parasite. Hell, the whole of humanity is a parasitic lifeform that feeds on the planetary host. That is biology. How nature works. Then we add the prescense of consciousness and spirit and the whole thing is wrapped up in the neat bag of excistance where these views do not clash on a cosmic scale.

Material and etheral are both part of reality. Remove one part and it´s just not the same :)
Thanks for your response Muliboy.......and sorry I am giving you the shakes....I guess I AM a nervous guy.........

But the problem I have is WHEN we decide to add consciouness and spirit. AT what point do our veiws come together in the whole cosmic existance? I have to be honest, I do not think that Chagur is thinking into it that much......

Does anyone of us have the right to claim WHEN an unborn baby has a soul, or how important it's life is in the overall realm of existance? How can WE? I understand biology, YES I do....thats the simple part......but the conception of LIFE HAS to be more than parasitic.........I mean really think about it........

Lets talk....
Playground for the high children

Life and death is in the moment. There is a soul in everything. It is the energy that weaves material excistance. By the rules of "reality" death excists since it marks the ending of a linear experience, but it is no more a ending than the credits at the end of a movie. The movie does not cease to excist once you´ve seen it. It is a entity of its own. A package.
The "soul" is constant, it is not added at any point, it resides above the material excistance. Excistance is the wake of the spirits motion.

Morale is the means of making excistance a smooth ride. Every clausule and rule that lessen the birthright of a enjoyble life experience are anti-life.
But death is nothing to the spirit. It is like going for a coke during a commercial break :)
I like that explanation Muliboy, it is sound and logical, it offers relief in consideration of a life ending, whether it is unborn or had lived for 70 years.....I mean that from the heart... I would assume then you feel that all life is preciouos, preciouos in the sense that the creation of life however small is significant in itself. (or I do not want to put words in your mouth) but if everything has a soul then is must be significant in terms of existance.

I agree also that Morale makes the ride smooth, yes, however does morale exist for just this reason or is there a force in nature that is felt and shared by many that drives us to respect nature, the universe, existance. Respect others......etc......This is what I am trying to understand myself. I have a hard time when someone over simplifies what we are, which is what I feel Chagur does. I mean no insult to anyone when I discuss these matters. But some things just do not make sense to me.

There is one point I want to make in regards to what you have said. Every time, life is created, in my opinion it is like paying homage to creation itself. There is something more to the creaton of life than merely..........passing to and fro in between the world of the soul/spirit and back again in death. Life IS creation, in many ways we have to consider that where life is NOT created, it never existed and never will, there can be no impact in death if there was never a life.

Life as we know it, is a step......to death....from death maybe another, we will find out..........

and still I keep an open mind..........although impossible as it is for me.....that after death....(as my atheist friend believes.) there is NOTHING........
Your friend is right, there is no thing. Some thing only excists in a material incarnation :)

Yes, I do find life very precious. It is not the length that matters. It´s just the beauty of being. Life is abundant and it´s here so we can be part of it. It´s the tangible version of excistance as the etheral is the floating dreamstate.
Materia is for touching, smelling and tasting.
... and every day is a good day to live or die:)

Appreciating the moment is key. There is where the best gems are found.
Being stressed, feeling the need to digest all that there is to experience is a good way of letting life pass unnoticed while pursuing some excistential goal.
Life happens whether one tries to or not, and letting it come to you, instead of chasing it, makes it a gentler get together :)

I keep an open mind, but I lean toward something being there.,.....there is something.....after death....I am 90 percent sure.

Having an outlook on life that is day to day IS very important and also what we are suppossed to do, not because we are suppossed to ignore the larger picture. but because.....time only allows us to exist in the human form. The human form has it's limitations and we must abide or go insane...........

That is why so many suffer from anxiety (as I do often) our spirit moves faster than our bodies allow.

also ...... do not always let life come to you......as my humble master teaches.......you need to take advantage of oppurtunities that cross your path, recognize and know when to be the aggresor.
Abide or go insane... brilliant :)

I meant that there is no (material) thing in a immaterial excistance (crap joke yeees :)).
Taking action is good, but one needs to be aware what one is trying to achieve and also be in control of the attitude one adopts in this pursuit.
I believe that attitude is what affects your surroundings the most.
Not so much what you do, as how you do it.

The spirit does move fast. So fast it flies away and returns within every moment, in effect there all the time :)
No need trying to be more than human. Being physical is the meaning of being physical, and the limitations are just limitations when the whole is forgotten.

Master?! Oh god, you are doomed! :D
Originally said by Patman
The way I see it an all powerful being that wanted mindless followers would have ended everything in the great flood and started over, or would something like that be admitting that even he/she, it is a screw up and makes mistakes.(Trust me I KNOW this is getting whacky )

I'm not totally sure if I'm right since I haven't been expossed to Catholic beliefs for a long time but wasn't that the point of God having a son (Jesus) who was a mortal and died. I know I was taught that Jesus was 'Perfect' but if you take it more contextually you could argue that God created(or became) Jesus in order to show us that we were truely made in his image and he was capable of mistakes as well.

This fact seems a little more plausible for me (I am not Catholic BTW) since I choose to take beliefs from many different faiths and create my own thoughts on life, destiny etc. I myself would find it more comforting to rely on a God who can identify with our problems, omniscience just seems too far for me to follow.
Since God is generally credited with omniscience, surely he knows exactly how the story is going to unfold. The whole 'Jesus killed for our sins' business and everything else. The dude knew.

And if he's omniscient, our fates must already be sealed (for he knows what will happen). Where's our freedom? What's the point?

So maybe he isn't omniscient. In which case he isn't omnipotent. In which case he talks a good game but can't back it up. I want another God...
I want a new God!!!!! That made me laugh this morning Captain Canada..........Well you can have any God you want that is what Humans have done anyway. It is a common belief that Humans created "God" to stay sane, it makes sense I guess and I believe there are many more with "No God" who ARE insane then those with Some God........People pick a God......and follow, it is simple, it is unintrusive,,,,I mean who wants an intrusive God anyway?....intrusive people are enough.....so This invisible God people choose, is really a kool guy, if you sin......you stick your self in a little box.....with some guy you can't see, say you are sorry and off you go back into the world clean as whistle......HAHA.......and people who do this actually believe they have been forgiven.....Well you know what? if they believe it that is all that counts......or maybe not........So you have your unintrusive God, who comes into your life whenever you need him/her........and he's gone when you do not.......and it's great cause he never comes to you and gives you any crap about it!!!......God is perfect...........HAAHAHAHAHA......Ok, but all sarcasim aside......................

People Box themselves into a religion and draw the line that is what happens.....Some REALLY Box it in, others just don't make to much of an issue about it. I was raised a catholic, although I am ANTI,..,.,Catholic Church.....(for many reasons) I keep an open mind to some of what I was taught, it may be true, I don't know......which brings me to what I believe.....I DON"T KNOW what is out there? However I feel that I may be closer to understanding than many because I have NOT boxed myself in.....I have found that if I relax, clear my mind cleaning the slate of ALL of what I have been molded by, personally, religiously Everything..........I get closer to understanding what I AM......understanding what we ARE.....is the first step to knowing........,,,,,,,thats all I have to say right now.......Happy Holidays to ALL...........(if thats OK to say) HAHAHAHAH.........
teerum ...

Re. "I have found that if I relax, clear my mind cleaning the slate of ALL of what I have been molded by, personally, religiously Everything..........I get closer to understanding what I AM...... "

Tried that once, scared the hell out of myself! Never went back to check out what it was that scared me so badly.

Take care. ;)