God and free thought


Thanks for responding, I did not mean to sound negative, I just like to meet on equal grounds.

I appreciate your comments and observations regarding Karma and past lives and why you may feel a "life" acts out in different ways to reach another level or to express a feeling.

I must say that as I write in response, I suspect I may sound like I am simplifying your intentions, however I do so on purpose because ....... one thing I truly believe is that often WE Humans tend to complicate matters so much that we lose touch with the very basic truth of existence.

I cannot begin to decipher your analogies of War.......... I have to strongly disagree with you regarding what we are supposed to learn from someone who commits acts of war against innocent people. I stray from ideals to explain this: The Taliban, are against everything the USA stands for, they are angry because we disrespectfully desecrated their land and their beliefs, I HAVE compassion for them in that regard. However, I will never let the Taliban or anyone else infringe on MY way of life or my beliefs, I will leave them alone, but if they antagonize me or kill my brothers, they WILL be eliminated. NOW, let me move back to symbolism, You mention FEAR and LOVE often, but I am not sure I have heard you raise "EVIL" as a factor. Here is where I simplify existence. I believe on Good and Evil. It comes in many forms and effects our every day lives......I am GOOD and I express my love for others and my love for being Good. I know have known many people in my life who I have taught Goodness and love to, However, I also know that there are those who, no matter how much you try and express compassion and caring or try to teach about being good........they will throw it back in your face over and over and over, there are lost souls in this world Bebelina, souls that are not meant to be taught compassion or love.

My heart bleeds for all children that are effected by this as well, like the children of Afghanistan, who are taught to HATE from a young age. If I could I would rescue them and teach them goodness and compassion, but that is just a dream.

It scares me that my message doesn´t seem to come across, no matter how many times I try to explain it.
Can anybody else just respond if you get it or not? You don´t have to agree, just let me know that you understand at least. :)

So Teerum, good and evil is the same as love and fear. Evil is just a very poor disguise for fear. If you really get to know someone you consider to be evil, you will very soon discover how frightened that person really is. Maybe he/she had a traumatic childhood that made this person believe that this is how everybody is supposed to behave against eachother. And if you then add adrenalin and sexual hormones running wild ( as in teenagers), then the mixture can come off as evil. It´s just lack of knowledge, lack of emotional awareness and lack of self awareness.
There are no lost souls, there is a plan for every soul, which is compassionate and good, no matter how confused and evil it may seem from the outside beholder.

War again then, I know this is a very sensitive issue right now, but we must talk about it still. How else can we learn? If we get killed? Have our homes ruined? Our country bombed? I think you get the message....
The point is that we realize that violence, however justified it may feel at the moment, is wrong and will only lead to MORE violence, ALWAYS!
Or else the insanity of war will never end until we are ALL dead.
And then, we will have learned however, but to what price? The death of humanity.


lost souls.

Should I take this as you didn´t understand one word of what I was saying?
But, Bebelina, haven't you allways ...?:((((((
Where is the compassion here, which you said that was so important?
Back to lost souls, how do you know you are in front of one, if you are not willing to understant it, you just intend to argue with it? One will answer you the same way you answered it (or anyway, this is the first impulse). If you show sarcasm, you may get sarcasm back and then is easy to clasify one to be a lost soul.
One should not start listening to others from behind a wall of prejudices... That person should listen to whatever others have to say and only after that report that to the personal experience.

Once again I can appreciate and respect what you believe .... and having an open mind as I do, I can also accept that ALL is good, just some masked by Fear in the form of evil.

However, to stray from symbolism, are you saying that we should not be bombing the Taliban?

Lets get into this and allow me to state how I explain to people who are anti-war why we NEED to Eliminate this EVIL from the world.

One day someone walks up to you and punches you in the face, you fall, you get up and ask why they did that.....then they hit you again. You get up and tell them NOT to do that or you will call the cops.......but they are no cops........and they hit you again.

and they keep on hitting you until you are DEAD. Now you WILL really find out the answers to existance.

You get my point, I love the idea that you want to teach the world how to love and be compassionate, knowing that deep down everyone is good.....but in the process you WILL get killed, if you don't fight back.

Richard Gere and all those anti war liberals are WRONG.....we cannot sit back and keep taking it on the chin,......or we are done for and all that will be left is an oppressed society with no freedom to ever express love or compassion again.

answer back.
We have different views.

I do believe that we can become a peaceful society/humanity. And that we should definitely not bomb ANYONE!
I don´t know anything about Richard Gere and his following, so I can´t really comment on that. But I stand by my opinion that non-violence is the solution, because nothing else can be. I don´t know what more to say really...:)
We create our own karma.

Twilight, so do you. :)
There was no sarcasm whatsoever in my question. If you look back at your own posts however, there you WILL find it , and beyond. So maybe you are seeing sarcasms in my posts, were there is non intended, because you are reluctant to see that in your own? Just a thought. :)

But then, yes sometimes I am sarcastic too but in a very obvious and joking manner, not degrading. :) I am no big fan of sarcasm, it is only insults in a nicer package.

In a perfect dream world Bebelina you would be correct. but you do not seem to understand what is at stake here, do you realize that if we did not fight for our freedom during WW2, you and I would probably not be having this conversation.

We would not be allowed, by the rules of oppression.

I do not mean to be sarcastic myself, but I am glad you are not running the world.

I can imagine that would scare you! :D

But if we had let Hitler do his thing, I still believe we would have this conversation. Because people knew it was wrong, and because of that nobody would continue to work for him in the end. Or I shouldn´t say "let him" , we should of course have protested and tried to protect people from his madness, but without violence. But then, history is history, and was meant to be, for us to learn from, otherwise it would not be.
And what do we learn? That war is good? I think what we were supposed to learn is that violence is not preferable. We can have a peaceful solution, but the learning process within the physical reality is very slow. But still, we have come a very long way from WW2, dont you think? Were people even having these kind of discussions then? Was a peaceful solution even an option in peoples minds? Now it is, and that is progress! :)
I have to tell you Bebelina, you sound like a really nice person, I mean that from the heart. I really like your disposition, I may not agree with what you believe but that is besides the point.

Anyway, I am sorry dear, but if you think you could have changed Hitler, by showing him compassion and love.......you are very pure, but also naive.

I wish I could help you understand better, but you will have to trust me.

What else can we debate on??? How abouit the abortion issue? comon I am liking this.
If I would have been his mother.

Then I would have changed him and showed him love and compassion and encouraged his artistic talents. Because he was damaged by his parents throughout his whole childhood, which made him the monster he finally became. But that was also his destiny. And it was the destiny of humanity to experience his madness too. It was such a major event in our history that probably nothing could have stopped it from the outside.

About abortion then, what do you think? Right or wrong?

But I´m warning you, my opinion of abortion will probably seem as strange to you as my opinion on other subjects. :D
Nothing seems strange to be Bebelina, I love to hear different opinions......................

Here is mine.......Abortion is one of the most disgusting acts and crimes against nature there is, it goes against ALL we are and strikes at the heart of our existance........HOWEVER,

I do not feel any Governmnet should be dictaing morality. That is why there is free will..........I feel it should be controlled and people need to change there disposition regarding it......I cannot stand these women that SAY......I have the right to do whatever I want to my own body.......well guess what........this is NOT your own body......it is someone elses.....all the pro-choice people do is remove the moral variable from the argument and to them that makes it OK..........

There is much more I can say..........but YOU GO........

Mike........(oh yea....thats my real name, it aint Teerum)
Well Mike...

You have a very strong opinion about this.

Here´s mine:

To tell you the truth, I had it all worked out so nicely in my mind before, but now I´m not so sure anymore. Taking a life is after all taking a life. I feel instinctively that I should support abortion, that it´s "politically correct", but there is so much going on behind the scenes of this issue that all the arguments that have been yelled at different directions, millions of times before, seem all washed out and not up to date anymore.

Like what is a mercy-kill?( if the featus is sick or deformed) Is it right to kill someone that you know will suffer very badly otherwise? Is it right to kill to protect your own body? ( when children get pregnant )

I don´t think I can give a simple yes or no answer to this issue, because it´s up to the individuals involved to decide, the mother, the father and the soul of the unborn child.
But I do think that people in general are taking too little time to consider the options. But that they do in many issues, it´s the nature of human consciousness as it is today, it prefers not to think, it is very much like in a dreamstate. But the ringing of the alarm-clocks are getting louder and louder...

But on a soul level, if the abortion takes place, it was then a mutual decision from all the individuals involved. The soul of the aborted child had then agreed to this short visit within the physical reality to help the parents have this experience that an abortion bring. It concists mostly of learning through pain/fear. But this is very complex and individual how the parents will learn. If they don´t recongnize the pain that an abortion generates within their consciousness, they may have to experience loss on another level. Or the unrecognized pain will take it out on their bodies, as illnesses.

Well, this will be enough for now...:)

Hi Bebelina:

Understanding and acknowledgement are two different things...

and ...you know...the Universe is unfolding as it should....

An Unborn baby did NOT make a collective decision.

I do not understand when you say you want to make the politically correct choice, what about your choice?......It seems to me you have a mind of your own.

Sarcastic comment: I love to make fun of people who want to save animals from those who kill them for their furs........but it is OK to kill an unborn child??.......does not make sense to me......like it does not make sense when people say do NOT kill those who murder innocent people, but do not question ME, when I say I want to murder the innocent.

By the way........I do not believe in killing animals for fur either, there are plenty of ways for us to stay warm. That is also a crime against nature.

Lets hear your opinion Bebelina, not the politically correct one.

One thing is perfectly clear, the unborn child does have a soul, a soul equal to yours and mine and everybody elses and fully capable at making decisions. It´s not a "baby-soul" , it´s a fully grown soul that has decided to participate in life in that paricular way with the souls of the parents.

But maybe you have a different view of the workings of the soul?

I would like that abortion is legal, but that the hospitals and cliniques took more time to evaluate each situation. For the reasons I mentioned above, as if a child gets pregnant, if the mothers body wouldn´t last throughout the pregnancy or if the featus is so severly damaged that the child is destined to a life in physical pain. And for other reasonable individual causes.

So I don´t really think that the issue in itself is abortion, because these questions apply to many areas in our lives.
Questions like: How holy is a life? What is mercy? Is a life holy enough for you to realise that it suffers and wants to be ended? Is it right to grant that wish?
Death is natural. Can killing be natural? Is it right to kill a fully grown healthy "baby" in a war? Is it right to kill a 3 week old cellcomposition undeveloped "baby" ? For whatever reasons.

Maybe when we stop killing the fully grown "babies" , the killing of the undeveloped and unborn "babies" will automatically cease?

For whatever reasons the parents does an abortion, they have this in common: they don´t want to put another life into this word. Why? What is wrong with this world? :rolleyes:

And having a baby growing in your belly is a very symbiotic state, you´re not just a container producing more life. It is very intimate and personal, and if a woman isn´t ready for that she shouldn´t have to be forced to go through with it.
As long as she and the father are aware of the emotional loss they will suffer from the abortion.

And who would adopt all those unwanted children? Would it be like in China, where babies are left in the forest to die? Is that mercy?

It is almost like I feel a mission arising from this...wait...I can already hear the slogan....."No more babies! " , until there is peace in the world! :D

That is actually my mothers idea, she is about to start a campaign about this.
That women should refuse to give birth until we have peace. It would work too, in the long run. The men would eventually begin to wonder why the population is diminishing and they are running short on their cannon-fodder supply! :mad:

You and I do not have a much different veiw of the soul you just brought the soul up, we had never discussed it before.

I agree a baby has a soul, a full soul if you will, but not one that has the ability to make decisions for itself, that is the parents responsibility. I cannot stand those who have the nerve to claim they know whether or not an unborn baby has a soul....idiots

Idealistic ideas, are not realistic ideas Bebelina, lets talk abouit reality.

I agree that abortion has it's place. There are situations when it is necessary, to save a life. BUT part of what you said hints on the "Womans right to choose" belief. this is what I do not understand, you are saying that a woman has the right to choose to kill her innocent unborn child. But "MEN" (since you singled men out) do not have a right to kill those who murder innocent civlilians? I consideration of this I contest that a woman who so freely kills her baby is MORE guilty.........

As stated before I do not believe govt. has the right to dictate morality so abortion should be legal, however this is where the issue ends as far as the morality about it goes......those who are pro choice for the reasons I have stated (govt. control) are correct, but those who are pro-choice because they feel they personally have the RIGHT to do whatever they want with a sacred life.......are WRONG......they do NOT have that right.

and let me state that I also do not believe that anyone has the right to kill anyone else (WAR) however we HAVE to, or they will kill us first.....it is a basic rule of survival and reality.

you want to convince women to stop having children until MEN decide to stop WAR? (essentially that is what you are saying)

Good luck, you are not dealing with reality again Bebelina....just more ideas.........and all those poor nice people who will be deprived of the chance to raise a GOOD moral person who will add beauty to the world....................Just the opposite Bebelina, it is our place to HAVE and raise good responsilble families,,,,,and add to the goodness of the world.

Oh well, I don't know maybe I am wrong
Bebelina, teerum ...

I really have a problem equating 'an innocent, unborn child' with a parasitic growth within a woman's body that is something more like a self-terminating tumor.

That was engaged and a little bit poetic, I thought.

However, do not misunderstand me here.
I am for that abortion should remain legal, but that every case should be in depht examined and valuated if it is really necessary and what the options are. I do NOT mean that it should be taken lightly and in the "assembly-line" fashion that it is being done today.
It is of course in essence wrong to kill, and an abortion does not justify other forms of killings, as in war fore example, or killing animals for meat and fur.
Two wrongs does not make a right, not here and not anywhere.

The "No more babies ! " campaign is my mothers, and I don´t agree with the idea, but it would work, in reality. And wouldn´t that be great? Think of it for a minute, nobody would be harmed but only the male egos, that would finally realize what their warmonging reptilian gene has acheived. This would of course demand a massive hand out of birth control to all women all over the world, and condoms( the less educated men could be fooled that using them would encrease the pleasure).

You keep saying that I live in a dream world and that my ideas are too idealistic to work, but they are NOT! Nothing could be more wrong to say, if we didn´t have idealism , where would the world be today, still stuck in the stone age where men were men and women offspring containers ? It is the idea of a better future, the vision of goodness that ultimately drives the humanity forward, it´s called hope, dear. ( sarcasm...) :rolleyes:
And when we lose that, we will have nothing.

You seem to have a somewhat twisted view of the soul, I must say. Do you think that there are forms of life that do not have a soul? As a featus? Do you think that the existence of a soul is impossible if it is not within a physical body, that the soul is born when the body is born? The soul is ancient, it is the universe, it has always been there, divided into different forms and sizes, but always there and always the same but constantly changing. The unborn baby is connected to ALL that, and so are we. The unborn baby has a soul from the moment the idea of it´s existence is born, and when is that? It began when this entire illusion of physical reality was born, when the universe was born, that is where all ideas of what we have become today and what we will become are taking place. We created, create and will create, all at the same time. The soul is there from the beginning, in everything that the mother is, in everything that father is and in everyhting that IS, including the moment when the sperm hits the egg.

And if one analyzes the situation in human survival terms, women and men are both killing, different lives for diffrent reasons, to ensure their own survival , but they are working in opposite directions. Men are killing those already born because they want to protect their OWN offspring , the unborn babies. Women are killing their unborn offsprings to protect those who are already born. So ending war would end abortion, because women would feel that it is safe to bring new life to the world, no risk for it to be taken and used as cannon-fodder, and since the men are so eager to see their offspring being born and raised they would concern themselves at staying friendly with eachother and maybe even try to exterminate or at least try to control their reptilian genes.

This could be reality, if more people could realize that ideas can be made real!
And what is stopping them ? Fear ...again. Fear of living, fear of dying, fear of loving. Cowards!


Chagur...lol, you dislike babies? :D

Wow, OK Beb, you said a mouthful, but I do not understand your tirade on the soul, I do not think you were talking to me, cause I agree with your ideas on the soul.

I also find your man bashing humorous......... we are not ALL bad just the ones who want to kill you because you believe in something other than they do.

I only say you live in a dream world because.......let me explain:

Obviously our world was created from ideas.....dreams of those who saw a vision, started a movement and achieved their goals, but much of what YOU say does not take into consideration the feelings or actions or opinions of others.......for ex: You had said that you felt you could have changed Hitler by showing him love and compassion.......that is NOT realistic.....it is NOT realistic to think you can change the Taliban by showing them love and compassion..........You have your ideas, but you do not take the other point of view into consideration., your ideas only solve half the problem, the difficult half is the breakdown and understanding of the "ideas" of the other side, there is a song.....titled "You gotta get in to get out" You cannot simply solve a problem by attacking it on the outside, you need to get inside to understand, then you can try and transform something the way you think it should be......and even then....if it does not work.....do not be disappointed, try and keep trying.......

This is part of the reason why Pro choice, pro lifers cannot get meet on mutual ground.....they are both extremists in their beliefs......not willing to bend to understand the OTHER point of view. Pro choicer's need to accept the fact that life is sacred and they do not have the right to Choose simply because they have the ability to do away with a life. They are irresponsible in this regard. Pro lifers are correct in that they have respect for life and realize how abortion is a crime against our very existence, however, people still have free will in a free society and should have the choice......it is a double edged sword.....pro choicer need to be more educated in the morality...aspect....

They do NOT want to see their other point of view......WHY?because we humans are a bunch of self righteous egotistical maniacs.....and STOP Blaming MEN........if women were in charge you would be having CAT fights just like men do......You get along with every woman you meet? From what I understand women are more petty than men when it comes to their opinions.....toward each other.....(and you spelled increase wrong.....it aint..encrease.....)


Bebelina ...

Chagur...lol, you dislike babies?
Not in the least.

Just dislike the use of 'an innocent, unborn child' when referring to a fetus. I can not equate a parasitic stage of development with 'innocence' and a fetus with an 'unborn child'. Great for eliciting sympathy for a political position, but otherwise dishonest.

Do you have some divine intervention connection that has told you directly that an unborn fetus is nothing more than a stage of parasitic develpment?

I am sorry I am confused?? Are simply removing the moral variable to take that position? I guess then ALL life as you believe merely exists as simple biological stages of growth??

When does it become more? when we are 1 year 2 years or 37 years???

Please tell me who told you this, I want to learn more.