God and free thought

teerum ...

The most 'divine' connection of all: Logic.

Morality has nothing to do with it.
And yes, 'biological stages', but far from simple.

It 'becomes more' when elephants fly and mice rule the Earth.

If you have to ask, you are not ready to know since you have learned little so far. ;)
Bebelina.. brilliant as always :)

Death in itself is no crime. There is nothing wrong in dying. It is continuation of life. The horror of death only strikes the ones that live. The dead do not go to a better place, there is no better place. Life does not end, and not start. It is. Life and love is the same.

The good or bad of life is entirely created by the individuals perception. Harboring fear skews experiences into bad incidents. This does sound dumb to the one that hasn´t given up on negative projection. When one sees fear (which contains desire+greed, hate, anger, jealousy, selfishness and so on) as a driving emotion, one can isolate it and interact beyond its gutreaction tendencies. When this happens it clicks, and the view Bebelina expresses aren´t pipedreams any longer.

Living without fear means you have the courage to live with love.
Saying you cannot live like that because of the illwill of others is just expressing fear and empowering negative mindsets.

Yes, someone attacks me, I strike back.
But many ppl are in a state of aggression and are creating a mindset where they are expecting conflict and therefore creating it on the go.
Plus, there is a huge difference between vengeance and defense.

On and on and on I ramble..... :)

Morality in this context is not a simple word that may or may not be applicable. This is the whole point. It is quite arrogant of you to claim that you KNOW for sure an unborn baby is nothing more than a biological reaction (or however you say it, "parasitic")

Once again, I ask you who told you this? Who came down from the heavens and told you that when a life is conceived......."Don't worry about whether or not this most amazing creation exists, it really is meaningless in terms of existance"

I don't get it? but wait, I am not worthy of knowing because I have not learned enough to even comment on this....HAHAHAHAA

That is as arrogant a statement as you claiming to KNOW things neither you or I can ever understand.

This is the point, you DO NOT understand enough about the creation of LIFE to determine that it is nothing more than ..................I'm sorry did you say....parasite?

Very intelligent Chagur, I am very glad I am not worthy of understanding this point of view........
teerum ...


You have taken your first step, though small, toward enlightenment.

Again, congratulations. :rolleyes:
In what way?

Do I not understand the other sides point of view?:confused: Is it me you are talking to now, or have you all of a sudden bunched me together with the sour image of pro-choicers residing in your mind? :D

I perfectly understand how the mind of most humans work, I´m proudly to say...:rolleyes:
But I do actually, I take great interest in understanding others, especially those who have an opposite world view. So don´t come and make assumptions about my personality! :p

About getting in the game and change it from the inside then. This is the game, life, and I´m here, I´m IN! As opposed to the outside. Then you can divide the game into different smaller individual and collective games. No game is the same, and there are new levels to be reached all the time. Getting in the game does not mean that you have to obey the laws created by those who played before. When you are in , you create. You are the developing the story of your life. You are contributing with your whole existance to what the world is perceived as to you, and to others.
You keep repeating "NOT realistic" as if it were an mantra to you, keeping your world view from collapsing. :D
So maybe YOU are the one who needs to take a look over the fence, because it´s not so scary as it sounds to actually BELIEVE in your ideas of a better world. Instead of just complaining and saying "yeah but.." all the time! ;)

" Just..b-e-l-i-e-v-e......." the fairy whispers...:)

I am not really man-bashing, it´s just an old habit that can be used for entertainment. I know you are generally good. But before you critize the female world ruler-ship that will come, give it a try first! What do you have to lose? Oh yes, your war toys, sorry about that...:(

And I didn´t say I could change Hitler fromt he outside, I said if I had been his mother, then it would have been very much from the inside, in every aspect.

Chagur, yes a baby is a baby and a featus a featus, and all has soul and all life is innocent , unless you consider living to be a crime.

MuliBoy....you are so wise....;)


Once again you have made it clear you have nothing important to say in response.

Sarcasim is the recourse of a weak mind.
Muliboy is wise because he agrees with you..........

and I have never said that I do not.....you just do not want to bend your rules, to take your ideas to the next level.

and I apoligize if I sound like I am making assumptins about your personality, I am just trying to get to the bottom of HOW you are actually going to go about accomplishing what you belive in.

I use the world Realistic because much of what you say revolves around the abstract, I can appreciate, understand and would LOVE to see the world change in the ways that you describe.........

But you see, lets use Chagur as an example, (sorry buddy but you brought this on yourself) I have been trying to convince Chagur that he DOES not have the right to claim that he knows an unborn baby has a soul or is something more than, (in his words "a Parasite") Now I know you do not agree with Chagur, in this regard.

So here is your first challange.........just to give you an example of what it will take to change someone elses point of view.....Go ahead......convince Chagur that he is wrong....

Now Chagur, please just don't agree with Bebelina to spite me, even though I know you would love to...........

Go Beb.....GO BEB.......GO BEB..........
I actually meant to say that Chagur, does not have a right to claim he knows,,,,,,,a BABY does NOT have a soul......or is not something more than a parasite

I miswrote......

Ok, come on Chagur, you KNOW I´m right, right? :D

But Mike, what you consider to be the next level I have already passed ages ago, so what you really are suggesting is that I should regress, and that I can´t afford to do, so much work has already been put in the evolution if this spirit , that going back is simply not an option.
I am however very willing to bend my view to have a better outlook on the world, but then you must also convince me first, why it would be better, and so far you have failed, but keep trying. :)

And what do you think I am doing now? Yes, I´m trying to convince other people, and ogres like Chagur why it would be better to live in love instead of fear. That is what I have been doing all the time, and of course, engaging myself in pleasant conversation while at it.
But it´s a two way street, you can´t force someone into believeing what you do, use threats and violence to convince them, but instead try to talk to the heart of people, so that they will understand by themselves, because then it will really stick too. :)

The change begins within you. :)

Thank you Bebelina, we have reached common ground, (you will realize why soon)

Here is a secret about myself.........

I have been trained to be an extremely humble person, in fact I am overly humble at times, someone can all but spit in my face and I will bounce back and show them.....kindness instead, I know this does not sound like ME, in regards to the way I have been speaking, but it is probably the stronger side of me.................the other side is the side that stands his ground. I have worked very hard at being able to differentiate between things of the heart and spirit and Logic.

I am not asking you to regress Bebelina, but remember if you want to change the world you have to be willing to sacrafice and work, not just talk about it. That is why I asked you to try and convice Chagur to change his mind, you will have to deal with people like Chagur, you cannot just ignore him, you have to understand WHY he feels the way he does first and then change his mind. Yes I believe that people are afraid....and afraid to love.

I appreciate and love all you believe, right or wrong, you are truly good and want to spread it and share it ,,,,,,,,,but I am glad Chagur is around to show you what you are facing.

I can say so much more, but I have to work....lets work on Chagur together and see where we get.....

Chagur are you there? No more sarcasim I swear lets just talk.
teerum ...

I have been following the 'conversation' and have come to the conclusion that the core issue appears to be whether a fetus is: 1. An 'innocent unborn child'; or, 2. A 'parasite'?

Therefore, would you please inform me what a fetus contributes to the well being of the ambulatory incubator it temporarilly inhabits other than uremia ... and later, stretch marks.

Before posting your reply, please take a moment to look upon the next stage of parasitic development: <a href=http://www.parasite.com/><font color=RED> A Child </font></a>
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I am not interested in the stages of development Chagur, I am interested in the conception of a life...........LIFE Chagur.

Life is the sacred gift of nature, it is the miracle of nature, you cannot measure the significance of this, no matter what stage it is in.....it IS already significant and important, it is beyond our comprehension.....it is something to Awe and cherish and respect.........it is more than a biological reaction...........please try and look at the bigger picture.......

Help Beb.........I am running out of time today....
Back step Chagur? It's a back step to you because we have two such completey different feelings about life, we are not yet on common ground. But thick skinned as I am, I will go along and entertain your question. (I will spare you the sarcastic comments about WHY)

OK you want me to answer the question, you are asking what a fetus contributes to the Mother? Essentially I believe that is your question, less the rhetoric.

I am having difficulty understanding HOW you could even come up with a question like that......to me it is a very unimportant issue...........who cares what the fetus contributes....what do you want it to go out and get a job???? What does a three year old contribute? except chasing the child around, changing diapers, losing sleep...........etc....

The contribution (and here is the answer to the question) is LIFE itself, it is the miracle that has taken place inside the mothers body. It is the mysterious force of nature that is to far beyond our comprehension to NOT hold it in reverance......and think if it as something more than just a parasite.......in some regards Chagur I sense you are somewhat of a naturalist.........you look upon life ALL life as part of something greater that grows and dies over and over and over....so the individuality of ONE fetus does not seem to be so significant to you......am I more on your track?

If this is so let me say that individuality is not an important issue either. In fact as a species we are all to caught up in individuality, which is why it is difficult to bring so many together, we all feel we are all so unique, when the truth is we are all the same. Even you and I Chagur, no matter how much we may differ, disagree, fight argue........we can never escape the fact that we are the same...........

So no matter what you feel, regarding a fetus, there still is only ONE truth (MINE,,,,hahahahah I am kidding) whatever it is, there is only one truth......sorry for going off on a tangent it is early.....

Where are you BEB?
I´m right here.

But what more can I do than talk? Should I do something special with my body to bring illumination? :D

I know all about ogres like Chagur, believe me, I KNOW what I´m up against! And I am confonting that kind daily. Who doesn´t? They´re all over the place! :D

What the featus brings the mother more than stretchmarks:

A fantastic experience of symbiosis with another human being. To paricipate in the creation of life, to create life. A spiritual and personal growth and maturity. A manifestation of love, the universe and all that we are.

And then, when the child is born:

To give birth, to connect to another human being in the most intimate physical way. To feel the rush of love that will last forever. To care for another human beings physical survival. To be responsible for laying the pattern that will formate this new individuals personality and emotional base.

Chagur, I know that you know that a featus is more than a parasite, nobody can be that dumb...doh!...:D So drop the "hardcore cynical" attitude!It´s ridiculous, man...so immature. :cool:.....:rolleyes:......:D

That was great Bebelina, I don't know if he will bother to respond, he did not to my last one............

My opinion though is to leave out the sarcasim......we cannot mock what someone believes and he will not take you seriously if you antagonize him.

Chagur are you there?
You just have nothing to say Chagur, that is quite obvious.......We can discuss something else if you like........
Well, I have something to say!


First a "supreme dictator" and now an "ogre???" Gee whiz...

Hey! I think you may be coming up in the world!! ;)


The issue? Fetus is a parasite Vs. Not?

Wars are fought, and people slaughtered because one side insists on making the prime issue mainly about their view being the right view.

Which kinda makes ya wonder what the real issue is after all.

Life, and its importance, mean different things to different people. Always has and always will.


I agree Counterbalance, however for all intents and purposes we are at WAR right now..........Bebelina, wants to change the world, I tried to explain to her that in order to do that she needs to reach out to others, understand them, make them see that she has a strong point based upon solid ground.

I asked her to try and make Chagur understand her point of view, remember we do not have to change each other completely to meet on mutual ground, but if we can agree on some things we have come a long way......it's not as simple as saying Chagur has a different point of view so leave him alone........NO

we want to get into his mind and understand WHY he disagrees with us...............what do YOU think Counter???