Invert, the only thing that ever helped me was when I could learn about reality on my own from honest intelligent people, mostly from writers, and from reality itself. They created the myth of a God to control a man's interactions with his own self. Whether you subscribe to the prevailing view of God in Christian theology or not, whatever constitutes God constitutes a certain portion of a human, sort of that extended portion like the Internet is an extension of my computer. To control others, control the way they interact with God. Control how they see God. Unfortunately that kind of control degrades both the controller and the controlled. Then the controller uses that degradation as an excuse to continue to apply control. It keeps cycling downward. Do you want to take a look at how you yourself use the same buttons to manipulate people that authority does? Would you please? I don't believe in it for the above mentioned reasons and more.
Metakron, you are incredibly fucked up. You keep talking about people forcing people to do stuff, when no one has suggested anything of the sort. The entire fucking point is that if you want something done about YOU, then YOU have to force YOURSELF to fucking do it. Grrr. That force is applied via choice. Earth to brick fucking wall.
How motivating. Seems like you're behaving just like those who you call bullies. Is this what qualifies you as... I can't remember your exact words but it was something like "superior and more intelligent"?
Ok look. I need some help. I don't know how else to say this. I think that if nexus says i'm a mental hypocondriate... that term can be used in many ways. It seems like a useful term. That person or type of person can suck his brain dry. Which is not a good thing. Anyway I need some help. I am going to pm you wes. I can't communicate on this site your saying, nexus. Nexus you are a little bit making us feel bad. Like me. Ya know, I didn't really used to be like this. I don't know what the fuck happend. I HAVE been getting worse. What is worse: getting worse and not being able to talk about why that is happening, and keep on getting worse, or, being able to talk about why your getting worse and nothing changing? Obviously we can figure out what is the fuck wrong with me. I don't know if I can communicate to you all or not, I don't really know how to, if there are rules, great for you nexus. Read them all down. Send me a PM to make fun of me, if you like. Well, for QQ, i only have to say that I am getting worse but with that comes insight into doing better. That's how i'm feeling at the time. Maybe. I don't know. But of course. If you can ask me a question... What the fuck. Your saying I can't say anything about what's wrong with me? Well. Isn't that the shit.
Brent, Again. I've not made fun of you. So shutup about that bullshit. If I had, you'd know. Believe me. I'm not passive aggressive. Anyway. Here's something to consider. Just what if... what IF... the problem you're experiencing in communication is actually a result of... there being NOTHING wrong with you? Think about it. You're desperately trying to explain what's wrong with you. Trying to seek help. And you're failing miserably. The only answer anyone seems to arrive at is that you're hard to understand... Maybe it's because there's nothing there to explain. You're trying to describe something that doesn't exist and therefore your difficulty in describing it is not worrying, but natural. Maybe? Anyway. As to difficulties in communication. I recall a time when I was younger and I had the bright idea to circumvent language. I thought about how thoughts are able to flash through the brain in split seconds. I mean WHAM BAM. The thought is there and over. The words are just icing on the cake, right? And they actually slow down the thought process because it takes time to spit out one word after another. The original thought is long gone once the sentence explaining it is finally uttered. So. I spent some time determinedly attempting to think in these pure flashes and NOT in language. I never fully succeeded. But I stopped when I realized that I was damaging my ability to think. It might feel POWERFUL to have these instantaneous thought flashes whizzing about in the brain, but they are USELESS. Nothing but ego gratifiers. They are unable to translate into any form of real-world utility. And, ultimately, it is real-world utility that is the final judge of all things. I found I was having difficulty coming up with words when speaking. I found that the variety of my thoughts were decreasing. Becoming empty. The thought may flash by in an instant, but without the words to describe it, to CAPTURE it. Then it is, in the end, just a flash in the pan.... This is, I believe, the important message of Wittgenstein's work. Philosphical Investigations especially. Utility. How is language used? What effect does it have? These are questions that most don't ever consider as their language skills operate effortlessly (in most situations). It is only those who, like you, are seeking deeper truths that come to realize this. You're young yet, Brent. Take your time. Relax. Don't let the sound of your own wheels drive you crazy....
Brent, put a little more trust in your self. Care about yourself, and you will respond. Don't blame yourself for the weather.
A question for the reader: Scenario: A guy who has been diagnosed as Paranoid schizophrenia reports of constantly seeing eyes looking at him. Not physical eyes but hallucinatory eyes. He describes the expereince as regardless of where people are looking with their real eyes he sees a pair of eyes always looking at him. The problem is persistent and constant. A pair of eyes over-laying the persons head. Whether that be behind, sideways or even in front. How does he describe his experience in real terms? How does he deal with the inherant paranoia of being constantly looked at? Is calling it a psychosis sufficient? What language can he use to describe his experience that others can relate to? More importantly; what language can he use for himself in describing his experience to himself? The point is that if he has no ability to express him self to himself then he is in a hard place for sure.... Understanding the experience is a long way to solving the problem, however if no language is developed or allowed then how can he solve his problem? Just some thoughts to add to the topic a little......
That is definately an interesting post, nexus. A good idea. Taking it farther. And farther, and farther. I tell ya, if only....... if only................ as in when someone is to come over. I just remember what you posted, and continue to apply it. i'll describe something. ..if that's ok. ok. I lived with my grandparents ("offically", I still do). I was normal then. I started to get worse. I had a lot of people who were half, so to say considered my friends. ok. well. .. .so, I was there at my house alone next door (i live-d by myself there). Because my grandparents house was nextdoor. ... Anyway, so, living alone, I was ok. I started out living with my grandmother nextdoor. And, I was beginning to know myself and become happy with myself. This is romantic: I would read Nicholas Sparks books (this is a constantly comming thought or memory I have about these times). I worked at winn-dixie and wasn't the most social person at all. There was this girl I liked that worked there. AND, we T A L K E D online a lot, on yahoo messenger, and, I drew her pictures! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! And so, the moral of the story is of course that I read a lot of books then and was happy. I loved a walk to remember (the book, AND the movie). I didn't like the Note book as much. I read all of them and got a fifth of the way through the last made book, Rodanthe. But... when I moved out of her house, and around this time quit going to work at winn dixie, dropping out of school due to... watching the over head projector and copying the words said, sitting in the front seat [this is an example only!], when the teachers desk and teacher are right in front of me.... I thought that the teacher was looking at me as I was looking at the notes. This sentence..... Nexus. I thought or felt so very scared. Like I was about to... what. Is this a panic attack or something. Some kind of anxiety. Surely but I quit school because of this and related things. I did get my ged though. That in a second. I also dropped out of ... winn dixie because I could no longer handle walking up and down the isle seeing customers. I would take the "take backs" (the items the customers did not want), and simply take my cart or 2 or 3 carts full of them and I would ride to another isle away from the customer. I would be very scared walking up and down the isle with any customer. I did try to get over my fear. It feels to me a person loses his/her strength in choice. This can happen. This can be relevant to the language issue. Infact this is relevant to a lot and a whole crud load of my thought and idea. "Every one has it", is a thought I have a the time, which passes and releases. -- So back to the history or background: I would sit at the house with my friend tubbs. I named him that. His real name is Daniel. Daniel. He left me. As did my girlfriend. I'm not there yet. I was fine at the house there alone, but I got worse. When someone would come over, ... life crises and such. These things suck. People need their power. Maybe I fear people having their power. I don't know worth a shit. But I know that for sure I got worse as all kinds of people would come over. But it was my house maybe I just wasn't taking care of it. I moved home where i'm at today just so i can try to get better. Having such a problem.... o h i tell ya
When it's the sensation of being scrutinized all the time, maybe the person is getting in touch with reality rather than losing it. People watch you and criticize you for every little fault they can imagine into being. It's hard for me to see it as a "psychosis" when it represents reality.
For anyone who is still listening: I think that a lot of our problems can be solved by treating ourselves as friends, to be criticized gently when needed, but to be treated as deserving of love, kindness, and respect.
While that sounds nice and all, it's just wishful thinking.. and somewhat shallow. I don't say it's shallow to insult you. I say it because honestly to me it's shallow. I don't care who said it. Why? Hmm. Well, it's hard to explain to someone who can't see it. I'll try one angle on it and leave it at that for now. Two factors come to mind (honesty/denial) and (perspective/comprehensive agility). Honesty lends itself powerfully what you desire of friendship, ability to take criticism, etc. But people aren't necessarily honest. They can't even be honest with themselves much of the time. There is a good reason they can't, whatever it is in their case. People have to hide things from themselves to get along in the way they've come to know "getting along". It's a great challenge to overcome.. changing your view on what consists of "getting along". Further however, honesty is good, but it will get you nowhere if you don't have the ability to relate to another. Lack of relation can generally be attributed to a lack of intellect or comprehension.. or a lack of shared experience/value. If you come to value my harm, and I come to value yours for whatever reason, we can't be friends unless we both change our value. This could possibly be resolved, but with SO many factors in play for each value set in question, it's not necessarily going to happen. Further, an inability to relate allows one to dehumanize another... which doesn't always happen but can and does a lot. Bah it just gets too complicated. You're somewhat right in that if we could treat each other as friends, it would solve some problems. It's just that what exactly consists of "friends" alone is questionable enough to cause notable strife, and unless there is something directly motivating people to behave in such a manner... it simply won't happen unless the person is just prone to friendliness in the way you happen to think it should be. So I'm just saying, it's a big enough IF to render the statement somewhat pointless, moot fluff.
I don't think it's shallow at all, Wes. I think that the way people treat each other affects them pretty deeply. Almost every creature I have met, not just human, needs a little affirmation of their essential goodness from others. Also, maybe I didn't make it clear enough. I was talking about how people treat their own selves. I say we each have to treat ourselves as friends. Bad ideas are enemies but our own persons are our friends. We need that positive energy or we do not have a reason or the means to be good people.
Of course it can, but the thing is... everyone learns how to treat people in their own way. You can't just wish them to rewire their brains in the way you think they should see things. But their affirmations come in different ways. The blanket statement "be nice" is somewhat moot, because people can "be nice" as far as they see it while being complete cruel asses from your own perspective. Well, that's a nice thought and everything... but what happens if I treat you like I treat my friends and you don't think I'm friendly at all? Does your perspective automatically trump my own. Should I simply conform to your expecations? Are you sure that I could even if I wanted to? Are you sure you'd want me to? One man's bad idea is another's greatest epiphany. Unfortunately people's denial or inablity to comprehend can trick them about what is positive and what is negative.
Wes: I am talking about any one person trying his best (or her best) to be compassionate and kind to his self or her self. One has to be able to be emotionally supportive of himself. He has to be able to appreciate the good things that he does.
Right, but you said "a lot of our problems would be solved" by that in what seemed to me to be a societal sense. I'm just saying that even if everyone does as you wish, I don't think it solves many problems in the "our" sense. Further, simply stating "one has to be compassionate, emotionally supportive, etc." doesn't help anyone learn how to do it, which they are already doing if they know how, and aren't if they don't. And if they don't, saying "it'd be nice if you were this way" does absolutely nothing to make people that way. Know what I mean? In fact, if you ask most people, they will view themselves in a positive light... or at least use whatever they've learned to use to justify their actions or attitude. They'll lie all day long to defend themselves. When put on the spot, people's minds tend to provide whatever is needed that seems their best shot to minimize trouble. Compassion requires a realization of a problem. There is no need for it if you can bullshit yourself into thinking you don't have one, which pretty much all people do to some extent, to different degrees depending on their mood, etc. I'd say that most people haven't a clue what "emotional support" would really be, or that they would require it. Some people are even "emotionally self-supportive" for the most part, and do all that you mention without ever thinking of it. Some people are emotional black holes, where the amount of emotional support can never, EVER be enough. Some have such barriers built to protect themselves that they can't recognize emotional support from themselves or anyone else. Saying "be emotionally supportive of yourself" thus to me, becomes a very bland, shallow statement. Further, who decides what good has been done? "good" is not so clear cut as to say one should flatly appreciate it. I may think I've done good and killed a million innocents, etc. People are what they are. You cannot change them except with force or that they desire to change. You can try to motivate them to desire to change, but there are no guarantees you'll have any success. Perhaps how you see the issue is enough to satiate your comprehension of it. For me, it doesn't even scratch the surface.
No, in fact, compassion is stifled by the "realization of a problem." You stop seeing yourself as a person first, and you stop seeing the other person as a person. You see them as a problem. Compassion dies. Love becomes conditional. Your own self becomes the alien until the problem that you see is "solved." I've been alienated from my own mother for problems that she can't even put into words, and she has an endless list of "that's what's wrong with you", enough to defend herself from having real compassion for me for the rest of her life. That defense won't break until she is dying of a brain tumor or Alzheimer's and you know what? Fuck that. It doesn't take a genius. All it takes is the use of a little real thought applied to a common situation and the will to set aside ones own self-hatred.
But, shouldn't compassion resolve one's self-hatred rather than put it aside? If someone hates themselves, how can they actually have compassion for someone else? They'd have to fake it. I don't think compassion is stifled at all by the realization of a problem with yourself, as you said you were discussing (the proverbial you). It is at the point a problem (with yourself) is recognized that compassion should be strived for, no? I don't see how realization of a problem that already exists stifles compassion. That doesn't compute to me, unless there's not really a problem and you're just making shit up.. like nuerosis style or whatever. From a problem, you can try to understand what led to it, what it is, and how to solve it. Compassion could be one part of the solution, depending on the problem. You stop seeing yourself as a person? That is a problem. A healthy dose of self-compassion could help that problem. "putting it aside" doesn't make it go away. That just buries it in a way that becomes insidious. If you were compassionate towards yourself instead of self-loathing, you still might be alienated from her.. but you could be much more tolerant of both of you. Please explain a little more as to the specific assertion "realization of a problem stifles compassion". I'm quite perplexed by that one.
