Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by Tiassa, Jun 23, 2020.
Yet another of the racist tropes you keep doling out: blacks/hispanics/Asians, on average...
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dude you've literally checked off almost every single racist trope in existence in this thread. you racist deal with and fix your shit.
I'm not making any excuses for my own part, just stating what I think a fair criterion would be for disciplining people when they say objectionable stuff.
That racist bingo card you are filling up?
meanwhile: People who don't have a lot of money are buying Toyotas , and with the money left over from not buying an Escalade that they don't need for rent, food, etc. they are going to buy stocks. Then they are going to use a fraction of their stock market gains to buy the next car, etc. And if they don't do that their poverty is their own fault.
This is the American region of planet Earth you're talking about, right? The home of Wall Street and Reagan's regulatory framework. The one that made famous the rule of thumb: don't put any money into the stock market you might need in five years or less. The one that was converted back into bubble&bust capitalism in the 1980s, with a financial market regulated by caveat emptor. The one in which a Toyota is not a cheap car. The one in which saving enough money to buy a Toyota implies you have a better job than most people in most black neighborhoods, and fewer dependents, and fewer health problems.
Re the Escalade: one of my inlaws was handed a Cadillac in excellent condition with smoked windows, basically for free - a free car. Before that car she had been pulled over a couple times in her life, always for cause she could see herself. In the first few months of the new car she was pulled over at least once in every police precinct she drove through. She was pulled over on the State Fair grounds, on the freeway through her city, on the block where she lived. She got it down to a routine - she lowered all the windows, rain or snow or whatever, because when they could see everything inside they didn't draw their guns.
I do know it. And so does Tyson.
As for you - "are they lying, of are they stupid".
Because you are applying, in context, a very racist stereotype.
Or I should say, racist stereotypes.
If you are unsure, you should ask "Sherrie Jones", and be sure to ask about how as a black woman, she's just popping out babies to different men, what was it you said, "6 kids to 6 different baby daddy in the hood" while plugging for women having less children and ignoring the historical connotations of forced sterilisations of black women (historical and currently mind you).. And I am not going to bother delving into your stereotypes about how more black people commit violent crimes, or Jews have more assets, or Asians do better, etc..
It’s true that around 13 per cent of Americans are black, according to the latest estimates from the US Census Bureau.
And yes, according to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, black offenders committed 52 per cent of homicides recorded in the data between 1980 and 2008. Only 45 per cent of the offenders were white."
This was just from a quick search.
I wonder if the average assets of Asians and Jewish people in the U.S. are higher than the average white asset data?
Aside from strongly implying that there's something radically wrong with the way laws are enforced in black communities and neighborhoods, there appears to be no point to these observations. One could, maybe, take them as implying that black people as a race are inherently or genetically more violent and murderous than white people - but that would be racist, no?
Yes, that would be even though that's what you are implying (and Bells). It could be that poor people in bad neighborhoods tend to have a higher percentage that are more violent.
Since that is the case, it could be that police feel a greater danger in those neighborhoods.
You and Bells do seem to reach for the more racist explanations though. Could it be that you two are both extremely intolerant and racist? Chill out man, it's only skin color.
When you have to resort to outright lying, then really, it's probably time to just stop, wouldn't you say?
At no time have iceaura and I ever implied such a thing. You, on the other hand, have done so repeatedly.
This was linked to you several pages ago, studies conducted that showed poverty, over-policing and biased policing, the inability to move up in the world due to racist constraints placed in society itself, all plays a part. Not to mention racism in the CJS to begin with.
The fact that this was explained and you are still pushing it like a negative stereotype says more about you than anyone else really.
Yeah! What if there was no racism? Wouldn't that be great? It would be - but that's not the world we live in. In the world we live in, white astrophysicists, doctors, scientists etc are not hassled by police.
My (now) wife was once stopped by a cop on her way to work. She didn't have her license or registration. She got a ticket and was let go. She appeared the next day after work in her scrubs to provide the license, registration etc. They were shocked. "You should have told us you were a doctor! We wouldn't have given you a ticket." That sort of forgiveness doesn't happen to black doctors. (Or black astrophysicists.)
Yes - at least they think they can. A white woman living in Michigan started getting hassled by cops - five times in one year, although she had not been pulled over more than once every five years previously. She was pulled over during the day and at night. She couldn't figure out why. The cops would get out with their hands on their guns, then look into her car, relax and let her go without a ticket, after telling her they pulled her over "for going three miles an hour under the speed limit" or "impeding traffic" (when she was the only car on the road.)
Then she realized she had just gotten a standard poodle that liked to sit in the front. And from the sides and the back, the outline of the dog's head looked like an afro.
Of course that's not the complete story. That's what most of us are trying to tell you - but you keep saying "there's really no story at all."
Not poor people, and not "bad" neighborhoods.
I said nothing, implied nothing, argued nothing, about poor people or "bad" neighborhoods. I was replying to your posts, and your concern was black people and black people's neighborhoods.*
Don't change the subject, in other words. It was your subject, and no change of your own subject can be presumed innocent.
Instead, you might try to respond to this
by clarifying your posts and correcting the unfortunate impression they leave with any reader not in the Tribe.
You have been implying that black people are inherently, racially, by virtue of their biological race, more violent, as an explanation for why the US police beat on them disproportionately. That is racism - textbook, type specimen racism.
* This is your complete post, that I replied to. You mention no characteristic of person or neighborhood other than US sociological race:
You apparently intended that to be evidence in an argument. You left it to the reader to figure out what that argument was - so I did.
[#American | #Nazis]
One of the confounding aspects of the white supremacist screeching is that, meanwhile, the greater question continues. Consider the Three Percent group discussed earlier (#1↑, 5-6↑) are no strangers to those with an eye on violence in and around Portland. Now consider a recently-emerged American Nazi group demonstrating on behalf of police in Boston. And then imagine an American man who started a Three Percent club in high school, has cultivated ties among various supremacists and connections to violence ranging from public disorder to gang activity and even outright terorrism.
But the whole think is a spelunk down the rabbit hole, stumble through the looking glass, and then glittering as from a cosmic disco ball suitable for the breakin'.
Meanwhile, the word out of Tennessee:
Eight of the nine people arrested during Saturday’s Black Lives Matter protest in Rogersville were identified by police as members of a non-local white supremacist group who allegedly attempted to agitate other peaceful protesters by yelling profanity and racial slurs.
The group allegedly became involved in a scuffle after being confronted by other counter-protesters about their foul language and racial slurs.
After spending two nights in the Hawkins County Jail, all eight were arraigned Monday in Sessions Court on one count of disorderly conduct. They were released Monday on $1,000 bond, and an Oct. 5 trial date was set for each of them.
Those eight defendants are Craig Briggs Spaulding, 33, of Knoxville; Caleb Dane Rose, 21, of Knoxville; Adam Lawrence Rice, 24, of Maryville; Cory Smith, 25, of Knoxville; Stephen Parker Smith, 27, of Louisville, Tenn.; Garon Joseph Archer, 25, of Johnson City; Sean Camron Kauffmann, 26, of Vail, Ariz.; and Joshua Blakeney, 20, of Morristown.
And then the basic rundown, or, as AntiFash Gordon↱ explains, "NSC-131 News". That is to say, three of those arrested are known members of the "Dixie" chapter of the pro-police Nazi group organized in Boston by that guy from Oregon who started the Three Percent club in high school.
And, yes, AFG has a thread↱ about him. And also one on NSC-131↱ in general. Moreover, in the Twitter doxxy wars, the various supremacists actually run to antifascists, snitching↱ each other, as some sort of revenge.
Trying to wrap your head around the org chart describing these groups can be an exercise in head meet desk futility, in large part because they're unbelievable. Along the way, near the confluence of straight pride and Nazis, AFG↱ actually got to write this sentence: "Imagine being Michael Moura, getting out of jail, and then promptly starting to date Psyche Invictus, one of your friend Augustus Invictus' multiple wives, while he's in jail for domestic violence against a different one of his wives."
And as to the disco-ball rabbit hole, he also got to write this↱: "Augustus Invictus and his dad were living together, then they both got arrested on *separate* charges of violence against women that had eerily similar MOs, and now they're both in the same jail."
And that sort of thing happens, over and over again.
So let us refocus, while also wrenching our eyes away from the discotheque-raving glitter of so many tempting baubles painting the walls in glowing tones of insanity: At the intersection of law enforcement and what?
@AntiFashGordon. "1/ It's Nationalist Social Club Week, where we'll be exposing the members of the NSC-131 all week. Meet Anthony Petruccelli, 45, Lynn, MA, a neo-Nazi whose involvement in the movement spans almost 30 years. Lately, he's been active with Super Happy Fun America and the NSC-131." Twitter. 7 July 2020. Twitter.com. 14 July 2020. https://bit.ly/2OmgGS3
—————. "1/ Let’s talk about a III%er turned Proud Boy turned Resist Marxism turned Patriot Front turned The Base affiliate. He now runs a new crew, the National Socialist Club, based on football hooliganism. Some of you already know him. His name is Chris Hood, of Boston, MA." Twitter. 10 April 2020. Twitter.com. 14 July 2020.
—————. "1/ Neo-Nazi group the NSC-131 announced in April that they'll be rallying in Boston tomorrow. @Bos_Solidarity will be there to counter it. Come join them at 11:30 tomorrow morning. Today, let's look at the NSC, or the 'Nationalist Snitch Club,' the nickname they've earned." Twitter. 10 July 2020. Twitter.com. 14 July 2020. https://bit.ly/2DBq0PG
—————. "1/ NSC-131 News Several NSC-131 members were arrested this weekend, after yelling racial slurs and attacking Black Lives Matter activists in Rogersville, Tennessee. Caleb Rose, Craig Spaulding, and Garon Archer are all confirmed NSC Dixie members." Twitter. 14 July 2020. Twitter.com. 14 July 2020. https://bit.ly/2WiFEGh
—————. "29/ Also, GOD DAMN. Imagine being Michael Moura, getting out of jail, and then promptly starting to date Psyche Invictus, one of your friend Augustus Invictus' multiple wives, while he's in jail for domestic violence against a different one of his wives." Twitter. 9 July 2020. Twitter.com. 14 July 2020. https://bit.ly/2WjotVd
—————. "Augustus Invictus and his dad were living together, then they both got arrested on *separate* charges of violence against women that had eerily similar MOs, and now they're both in the same jail". Twitter, 26 April 2020. Twitter.com. 14 July 2020. https://bit.ly/2Wm506d
Bobo, Jeff. "Nine arrested at Rogersville BLM protest for disorderly conduct appear in court". Times News. 14 July 2020. TimesNews.net. 14 July 2020. https://bit.ly/3gZo6qB
News from the Doxxy Wars
So, along the way, RuthlessWe introduced us↱ to the admin of a particular white supremacist Facebook group, and, honestly, the explainer is a pretty sad twitthread about an antismetic fan of Ron Paul and cryptocurrency passing through alt-right and "the frog Nazi thing"↱, and even trading in Q-stamped potsherds↱, and why do we care, right?
Well, there's the bit where they out a correctional officer↱ as a participant with an appearance of advocating race war.
At the intersection of law enforcement and what?
@RuthlessWe. "He is a proponent of Q-Anon, which serves as a reminder that the Q conspiracies, like many conspiracy theories are rooted in anti-semitism." Twitter. 11 July 2020. Twitter.com. 14 July 2020. https://bit.ly/2Oqv4bU
—————. "He made his way to the 'alt right' and did the frog Nazi thing for a while until getting more seriously involved with the movement." Twitter. 11 July 2020. Twitter.com. 14 July 2020. https://bit.ly/3jbtRUb
—————. "Meet Anthony Paul Choma of Raleigh NC an admin for the white supremacist @facebook group 'It's Ok To Be White' and big #TuckerCarlson fan". Twitter. 11 July 2020. Twitter.com. 14 July 2020. https://bit.ly/3j4BITd
—————. "Micheal Krul works at New Castle Correctional and is also a member of racist FB group. Care to comment?" Twitter. 14 July 2020. Twitter.com. 14 July 2020. https://bit.ly/308CExe
Moderator note: Seattle has been warned for trolling, aggravated by its racist tone.
Having considered the replies above and the opinions of other moderators, I think that, in the end, whether he is consciously racist or just racist because he chooses to keep himself ignorant is really beside the point.
In this thread, Seattle has effectively ignored information that has been presented to him regarding the reality of racism and its effects in the United States, only to repeat his own ill-informed opinions on the matter. At various points in the discussion he has tried to divert attention away from the topic by complaining about other issues, including such things as "radical feminism". He has tried on numerous occasions to change the subject. He has avoided responding to many direct questions about his position, and has made little, if any, attempt to try to present a fact-based argument to support his opinions. He has also made a habit of insulting other people in the thread who have provided facts, which in itself is a breach of our site rules.
I can see how some formative experiences in Seattle's life might have reinforced his racist views. I do wonder whether he was really as blameless in his school interactions with black people as the picture he painted for us. If, as seems more than likely, he had the same unconscious biases then as he does now, I suggest it is little wonder he attracted negative attention. But these are merely idle thoughts and conjecture on my part and irrelevant to the warning I have issued.
The stories of my high school experience was factual. You are wrong about me being a racist. If I was racist, how would that be "trolling"?
I find it very odd that site moderation is basically deciding that my views aren't accurate because everyone else disagrees. That's not how facts work.
I have said nothing about thinking that the "white race" is superior or that any race is superior to any other race. I have said from the beginning that of course there is a level of racism anywhere that there are humans.
I have said that it is my opinion that racism is lower than most people on this site think. Linking to a bunch of articles that agree with most people on this site changes nothing.
Look at the works of the black economic Thomas Sowell and you will find his viewpoint is essentially the same as mine. Also look at the more recent arguments of Candice Owens (black) and/or Coleman Hughes (black).
You need do no more than type any of those names in YouTube and you will find very learned,scholarly presentations of their views. Spend no more than 5 minutes with any of their videos and if you are a reasonable person (I'm not sure at this point) then you will change your mind about me.
I have to say your response is pretty judgmental in its conclusions for site administration when the subject matter is a point of view.
I'm sure the parts you presented were factual. I just wonder what you left out in the telling.
I don't think I'm wrong about that. Your posts in this discussion, alone, show your biases. Your racism obviously informs your political views as well.
It wouldn't. That is why I wrote, explicitly, that the warning I gave you is for trolling, first and foremost. The fact that it was racist trolling is just an aggravating factor.
Although I try to keep somewhat in touch with the distortions of the right-wing American media, I don't much care about your "alternative facts". It looks to me like you've been sucked into the media bubble that has captured many Trumpian Republicans. You're no longer really aware there's anything outside that. If any further evidence of that is needed, we only need to look at the people you have sought to rely on in this conversation to excuse your racism.
Of course not. You don't have to be a neo-Nazi to be racist. Besides, you're no doubt well aware that if you did talk about the superiority of the white race, you'd be kicked off this forum without a second thought.
Congratulations, Captain Obvious! Yet you continue to deny that racism (historical or present) is in any way responsible for the demonstrably non-level playing field in the United States.
Clearly you are ill-informed. Never mind the political bubble. What's your social bubble like? Maybe you're mixing with too many white, right-wing Trumpians and you need to broaden your horizons just a bit.
As expected. Right-wing Trumpians have never cared about facts. Quite the opposite. If the facts are inconvenient or inconsistent with the ideology, it's time to get some "alternative facts".
You started out as a liberal? What did that mean to you, before you became a right-wing Trumpian? Which liberal ideals did you support, and which ones did you decide to throw away?
You started out "getting" that black lives matter, but then what happened? You stopped getting that? Do black lives matter to you any more, or has the liberal establishment gone too far with that radical idea, in your opinion?
What black lives matter organisation?
The impression I get is you're as much into "identity politics" as anybody. You're being very careful here to disindentify yourself with "liberals" and people who think that black lives matter and the like. At the same time, you're claiming you're not racist while taking a lot of time to post racist, supremacist talking points on the forum. What you say about your racism isn't nearly as important as what you do. Actions speak louder than words.
Smug, authoritarian judgment is all you are offering here. You've got it all figured out in your head. None of it is correct but just as in Salem you are all too ready to join the crowd to throw the witches in to see if they will float. Nice. Be proud of yourself mate.
You're trying to carry on this discussion with me in two different places. There's a private conversation going on, but then you're also posting parts of that conversation to the public forum.
If you want to discuss this further with me, we can do it in either place, but you need to choose one or the other. I don't want you posting edited excerpts from a private discussion in the public forums. If we are to have a public discussion, I will keep that in mind and may not be as candid with you as I would be in a private conversation. Your choice, either way, but you cannot be selective about which parts of our private conversation you choose to allow the rest of the membership to see.
Consider this private. Originally you sent me a private PM and I responded. Then I saw in the forum that you had posted the same thing so I cut and pasted my response to you in the public forum since you seemed to be doing the same thing.
It's rather odd for you to originate the PM and post in public and now you are asking me why I am doing it?
Your posts are racist - to the point of crude stereotype. Some of the more flagrant items have been quoted, above, so you can see what other people are talking about.
This, for example, is the standard setup of a stereotypical racist argument familiar to any American; it is straight up racism as it stands:
You have had several opportunities to correct the appearance of racial bigotry fueling racist argument that post creates, clarify where you may have mistyped or overlooked how that post of yours would read in this thread. You have instead chosen to 1) try to change the focus to "poor people" and "poor neighborhoods"; 2) post personal attacks, attempts at insult, etc. 3) double down on that racist argument by finding black people you think agree with your racist posting and presenting them as evidence you are not racist.
Separate names with a comma.