Prejudice and Bigotry in Law Enforcement

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by Tiassa, Jun 23, 2020.

  1. Seattle Valued Senior Member

    No one (except you) said anything about someone thinking that whites are superior. If you take the narrative that is common among many black people who are calling everyone and everything racist and speak that way as a white person you would be called a racist (and rightly so) therefore it's not good for a black person to do the same thing.

    It's silly to talk about "white" people or "black" person. If you have a bad experience with someone that was with one person and not with a race.

    There is work to be done about crime but it's not at a high level and it's never going to be at zero so if I have a problem in my life it's not likely to be because there is some crime. If there is a problem in my life it's because of decisions I'm making and it's not going to help me if people lead me to believe it's because of some external factor.

    If two groups of black people have greatly differing results but both would face the same racial environment, the reason for the different outcomes isn't race.

    Jews do better, as a group, than the average white person. The reason isn't racial. One group is more educated (as a group) and is more entrepreneurial, etc.

    It's the same with black people or any other people. The 60's set the legal basis for equality. The rest is up to the individual. Good intentions often lead to poor results. Welfare in moderation may be helpful. Beyond that it hasn't lead to better results anywhere in the world.

    Affirmative action didn't really help anyone. Take it away, people try harder and they improve their situation. It's the same with minimum wages. More black teenagers had jobs before the minimum wage. After, they had fewer jobs because more qualified people got those fewer jobs. Good intentions, poor results. Two couple black families existed in numbers just as large as in white families prior to the 60's welfare laws. Afterward the gap widen tremendously. Why does no one care about these facts?

    There is a whole "industry" based on "anti-racism". Jessie Jackson has made a career of it but as a "leader" he hasn't done much for his people.
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  3. billvon Valued Senior Member

    Your own words: " if you state the obvious, you're now a racist or a white supremacist."
    Everyone and everything isn't racist. No one says that other than you. That's a strawman.
    Of course. Working towards that, however, is a good goal.
    If a company/apartment complex/government office has a policy that states "no blacks" - is the solution to that up to the people who apply for jobs or housing?
    I disagree. It effectively forced minorities into roles they wouldn't otherwise have gotten into. It broke down a lot of barriers. The outrage over it was a sign that it was working.

    Nowadays there is less need for it.
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  5. Seattle Valued Senior Member

    My meaning was that if you state the obvious you can be called a racist not that if you state the obvious you are a racist and think that whites are superior. You are the only who added the "whites are superior" part.

    No companies have policies that no blacks can be hired. That was taken care of long ago.

    The bottom line is that when you give advantages artificially you are saying that they can't get in otherwise. That's not the case. It's like treating someone as a child.

    "You can't save money? That's OK, you came from a long line of slaves and you don't know any better". "You have less assets? It can't be that you have 10 kids, it must be that you didn't inherit property from your parents"'s not the case at all.

    People turn those things around in one generation all day long here and in other countries as well. At this point thinking along those lines is counter-productive.
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  7. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    As to the first of those paragraphs: Because it is emblematic of the contrast between how the police treat guilty white people with guns and unarmed black people including the innocent. In that context, the point reflects on your setup for a white supremacist trope↑, "The appearance is that cops are out to get blacks but most of the people they are dealing with in most of these areas are black criminals."

    That entire post is a white supremacist trope:

    The problem with the current outrage is that it ignores larger problems. — No, it doesn't.

    In a country with 350 million people I don't know that the cops are "out of control" based on a few of these cases. — Fallacious.

    Certainly those particular cops appear to be out of control but as far whether it's happening more frequently than usual, probably not. — Idle speculation on speculation.

    Certainly there is little logical reason to protest and riot to the degree that has occurred. — Your contrarian opinion is pretty much predictable. Meanwhile, what, precisely, is the police justification for mayhem? Or lying?

    Several people have been killed and many businesses torched. — Well, there were the right-wingers who ambushed cops. And there was that cop caught in disguise smashing the windows of an auto parts store. And, of course there are problems in any extended protests, but your generalizations are meaningless.

    It's selective outrage in that concern is giving to a few people unnecessarily getting killed while struggling with cops and no concern given to all the inner city shooting deaths (black on black) that occur every weekend (for example). — The idea that black on black crime somehow excuses, mitigates, or otherwise means whatever the hell it's supposed to mean about police corruption is one of the most common racist excuses for law enforcement rackets we have.

    At the heart of the police problem is just the nature of the job. — Then the job itself is problematic.

    … just glorified training of a security guard that is then placed in positions of too much power and authority. — Again, this speaks to the job itself being problematic.

    In some countries becoming a policeman is more like going to college. That's probably what is needed here. — Sounds nice, but at some point you're going to need to address capitalism, as that sort of reform is really, really expensive to implement, and if we insist on making excuses for police because of the "nature of the job" and the undertraining that has occurred in the first place, well, we must also remember how cutting corners and pinching pennies helped get us into this mess.

    The appearance is that cops are out to get blacks but most of the people they are dealing with in most of these areas are black criminals. — Fallacious; these are two separate issues.

    Even those that were potentially murdered (and therefore unlawful) where still people with long rap sheets and they were people struggling with the cops. — Fantasy.

    It's a murky area that is being sensationalized to a degree. — A meaningless statement, at best.

    The bigger problem is the gun violence in this country and the shear number of guns. — I'm not one to agree with the NRA, but it's also true that at some point, we have to take a look at the people doing the shooting.

    Cops shot about 3 people a day in this country. That would be a yearly total in many other guns where guns are as prevalent. No one is addressing that either. — This comes back to questions about the nature of the job and who is doing the shooting.

    Politics by emotion isn't a particularly effective way to govern IMO. — Meaningless statement.​

    One of the things you fail to account for, in all this, is that if one cop in a given jurisdiction, such as a state, can do it, then every cop can.

    Here's another: I could tell you a story about the time a friend got a ticket in Oregon for not wearing a seat belt, and it's dumb, since he was, but it's also true that the judge, presented only with the cop's say-so versus the driver and passenger in the car, actually said the court cannot doubt the word of a police officer. I know, it's a dumb story from almost thirty years ago. But watch them take down Elijah McClain. They killed him. Watch them take down Antonio Smith, who lived through the assault. Not only was he the wrong black man, who did nothing wrong, what the police were actually following up on, apparently, was a panhandling complaint. In re your assertion that "most of the people they are dealing with in most of these areas are black criminals", these cops were looking for someone to rough up. So remember how many beatings and killings, over time, depend on the word of a cop. Remember when cops in Texas arrested ten percent of the black people in a town based on the word of a crack addict officer with no evidence and a known history of corruption. When the news called for the twenty-year retrospective, the dirty cop said he was proud of what he did.

    This corruption destroys people and communities; it also feeds violent crime.

    As to the second paragraph, well, you seem to have missed the point. Or you're playing another easy white supremacist trope. It really isn't amazing, at this point, to witness yet another coincidence between haughty certitude and fuzzy recollection. The real curiosity about it is that people keep trying.
  8. billvon Valued Senior Member

    OK. I thought the end of that sentence - "or a white supremacist" - was part of your thought.
    No, it really wasn't. In 1973, Trump's apartment buildings were not accepting blacks. There was no written policy, of course, but if the applicant was black the person who did the interview would write a big C on the top so that the rest of the company would know that the person was to be denied housing.

    These sorts of things were fairly common. They are far more rare today but by no means gone.
    That's silly.

    While affirmative action was in place, it was like a judge telling a company that discriminated against a woman by firing her that they had to hire her back. That was also giving her an "unfair" advantage over a man, but it is done because justice is often an attempt to "right a wrong." Was that judge telling that woman that she couldn't keep the job without his help? Of course not. He was acknowledging that she was unfairly fired, and the judge then took an action to remedy that injustice.

    In the US, until 1954, the government maintained separate (and generally far inferior) schools for black children. They denied them good education by government fiat. That means that if someone was going to school in 1953, and was working in 1993 (40 years later) they had been unfairly denied education - and thus would be at some disadvantage in the workplace. Affirmative action seeks to do what the judge did in the case above - right a wrong.

    Nowadays while you could make an argument that blacks are discriminated against via various methods in schools, the argument is much, much weaker because legally they are not discriminated against. Hence the vanishing justification for affirmative action.

    Nope. "That money/opportunity/benefit was taken away by the government years ago? We will restore it."

    Absolutely. And that woman who was fired because she was a woman? Perhaps she could go on to get an even better job. Lots of women could. But justice generally doesn't look at what might be - justice looks at what happened.
  9. Seattle Valued Senior Member

    The job of the police is problematic. Try being one.

    Capitalism can handle everyone else going to college. I see no reason it can't handle the police being better trained.

    Your response is the typical "trope" of the "white guilt" variety. Defund the police and see what that does to communities.

    It's not "fantasy" that most of those killed by the police had a long rap sheet. The guy that was killed in Minnesota had been to prison 9 times and had put a gun to the stomach of a pregnant women during a robbery.

    This tends to be the story or something similar. Rodney King got a beating that he didn't deserve, that time.
  10. Bells Staff Member

    Well isn't it great that you have the luxury to say that!

    No, really, you have that luxury.

    Not everyone is that lucky.

    Especially when you follow it with:

    You can't even condemn it, and in failing to condemn it, in trying to utter those words, you have to put in a 'but'..

    Seriously, people like you can't make this crap up if you tried. It's all just natural.

    If a man or a woman's private activities affect how they do their job, then it is well within the purview and control of their employer, when said job results in people dying because of the private actives and beliefs of the "man or woman".

    How does it feel to be in such a position of privilege to be able to make such arguments to defend the killing of black people?
    There have been less statues pulled down or businesses torched than black people killed or attacked by racism in the US, particularly by bigoted police officers.

    You think there's little reason? You don't think that it's out of control?

    When the officers murdered Floyd, they lied about it..

    Minneapolis police initially reported that Floyd “physically resisted officers” and then “appeared to be suffering medical distress.” No weapons of any kind were used, police added.

    Then the video footage emerged. It showed Floyd pinned on the street, begging for air, calling for his mother, for minute after minute. He was pronounced dead not long after. The officer and three others with him at the scene were fired, and all face criminal charges.

    If the video had not emerged, they would still be employed.

    And this is something that happens over and over again. And each time, it takes protests to get them to actually do anything about it.

    It's fair to say that people had enough.

    This isn't new. People have just had enough after generations of these sorts of killings.

    Think of it this way..

    A black man is suspected of using a fake bill, he is suffocated to death by white police officers who pinned him down, one of whom pressed his knee into his neck for over 8 minutes, several of those minutes, he was unconscious due to lack of oxygen. We literally watched police lynch him on those videos. And then they tried to lie about it. And it took a looong time before any of them were fired and/or charged.

    A white man walks into a black church, and guns people down because they are black people. He wanted chips and a drink. They sent police officers out to Burger King to get him the food he wanted.

    You don't see a discrepancy in how police officers treat black and white people suspected of crimes in the US?

    It's not that your excuses are shocking. It's not, believe me. We've heard and had to put up with worse. What is shocking is that people like you and Sculptor still think these are viable arguments to defend white supremacy. You follow the same play book. It's not viable or original. It's just downright dumb.

    How many more black people are expected or meant to die, before anyone does anything about it?

    Just give me a round about figure?

    If killing kids in parks or their own homes isn't going to be enough, if killing men and women in their own homes, some even asleep is not going to be enough, if attacking people in their own homes because they are too black to live in these neighbourhoods is not going to be enough, if lynching people in the street in full view of cameras and then lying about it is not going to be enough.. What is?

    So what's a round about figure?

    What's a good figure to indicate that it's out of control?

    How many black people do you think have to die, before you would deem it out of control?

    Your own president was retweeting videos of people screaming white power in the street in full view of others and people filming, because they feel comfortable enough to do it and these are not isolated incidents.. And you think it's currently as low as it's ever been? Are you comparing it to the Jim Crow era maybe and suggesting it's lower because they aren't wearing white hoods and burning crosses and are now instead carrying tiki torches and marching by their hundreds and running people down in their cars?

    Of course.

    Because everyone like you trots out 'their token black friend'.

    We'll just ignore systemic racist policies that have affected generations and continue to this day because well, you just don't understand how any of it could be racism. It's just bad choices.

    Meanwhile you're whining about those protests while failing to recognise that those protests are against the bad choices of white people in the US..

    Did you pull this shit out of your local KKK chapter?
    cluelusshusbund likes this.
  11. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    So much for due process, or is what happened to Elijah McClain what process a black man gets?
  12. Seattle Valued Senior Member

    What bad choices are "white people" of the U.S. making?

    How does someone who is a racist become a police officer and spend his life protecting black people in a black section of town? They don't know what color someone is going to be before they go on a call. It seems like a strange job for a racist to be interested in.

    Do you think their heavy handedness had anything to do with his rap sheet? Nine times in prison by the age of 40 is quite the achievement. He had fentanyl in his system. They are going to be punished for what they did but it's a rather fine line that has got to make it hard to find qualified cops don't you think?

    All but one had only been on the job for 3 days (the ones who just stood by).

    I think you are the racist here.
  13. Bells Staff Member

    Racism is a choice.

    But they don't protect or serve black people in the black section of town. There's a reason as to why minorities and black people in particular are over policed.

    Racial bias in policing is well known in the US. I get why you choose to disregard it or ignore it or simply place things out of context. It does not suit to address reality, does it?

    You mean the police are now acting as judge, jury and executioner? Who gives a shit about the middle man, eh? Just arrest and murder them. I guess innocent until proven guilty only applies to white people?

    Tell me, how long was Tamir Rice's rap sheet when that police car just about mounted the curb, the officers jumped out and gunned him down as he played with a toy gun?

    How long was Aiyana Jones rap sheet, when police officers shot her to death as she, a 7 year old girl, was asleep on a couch in the living room?

    How long was Bounkham Phonesavanh's rape sheet when police threw a stun grenade into his crib, which landed on his chest, leaving him with horrific scars and burns?

    So, suffocating him by pressing a knee into his neck and leaving it there even after he loses consciousness is acceptable? Because he had a rap sheet and fentanyl in his system?

    He was unarmed. He was restrained. The rest was a good old fashion lynching without the rope.


    Tell me, if you see someone suffocating someone else, do you just stand there and do nothing because 'yo, you only been on the job for 3 days'? Do you then lie about it?

    There's a term for people who do things like this or try to excuse it. Sociopath.
    Of course you do.

    Your white privilege is being challenged. Anyone who does so must be racist against you and what you believe to be your and those like you your rights to murder black people and/or excuse it.

    So I'll ask you again, how many black people have to be killed by police for you to deem it to be out of control?
  14. Seattle Valued Senior Member

    This concept that America is a "racist nation" is ridiculous as are your arguments about police actively going out to murder black children. I understand that your emotions have been fanned by the media and the "black leadership". What kind of positive results does black leadership have to show for their "work"?

    It's kind of like expecting a union leader to make a company so successful that people no longer want the union. If the narrative was to have policies that encourage entrepreneurship in the inner cities, once those areas improved the people would soon be voting Republican. That's not good for black leadership is it?

    Much better to keep talking about how racist America is. This has nothing to do with my "white privilege". I take care of myself and don't really rely on the government. I don't have "white privilege" if I apply to a university or if I apply for a government job. I certainly don't have it on here where anyone is free to call me a "white supremacist" or any other ignorant term. I avoid the police.

    If anyone would spend a tenth of the effort of getting everyone all riled up just to suggest that those in poverty have fewer kids, move away from high crime areas and get an education and start your own mom and pop businesses...these problems would go away in a generation.

    Government isn't really the solution but a less diverse government would be helpful. The party structure isn't doing anyone (other than party officials) any favors. A good idea by one party has to be opposed by the other party rather than working together for some reasonable compromise as would happen with a weaker party structure where the politicians have more individual authority.

    Of course your only interest is to raise the race flag. That's the only subject you have any reaction to and your only reaction is to call anyone not agreeing with you a racist.

    That requires no thought at all and it's why nothing ever changes. By whatever metric you would like to choose, the U.S. is not a "racist nation". To say otherwise is ignorant.
  15. parmalee peripatetic artisan Valued Senior Member

    When you've got nothing, you always go with "you're being emotional." Honestly, a bot can be more "creative" than you.

    Right, you've "pulled yourself up the bootstraps," so why can't everyone else--or the blacks, at least? Never mind the systemic and structural obstacles preventing such, which have been amply covered in every form of media imaginable for decades now. Remember when you actually confessed to being wholly unfamiliar with the litany of labor violations committed by Walmart, again, something which has been so widely and extensively documented for more than two decades now? How anyone cold have missed all of that is utterly beyond me, but even more confounding is when people express strong opinions over matters of which, of their own admission, they are not terribly well-informed (and that's putting it mildly).

    Can't even make sense of that.

    It would be one thing for a person to have said this two months ago--though still a mindfuck-- but now... I mean, honestly, do you read any news sources at all? Have you somehow even totally missed all of the articles covering, say, the sheer number of television programs which have featured blackface over the previous two decades? It's something like 30-odd, for the record--all pretty mainstream, popular series btw. Or stories about how Uber and Lyft algorithms actually charge higher rates for trips to and from black neighborhoods? Or... is it even worth listing and documenting any of this, do you even pay attention to the world around you?
    cluelusshusbund likes this.
  16. Seattle Valued Senior Member

    Therein lies the problem.

    Regarding the systemic problems that prevent blacks or anyone from improving their personal one. If you are poor and live in a "ghetto" what are the systemic problems keeping your there and keeping you poor?
  17. billvon Valued Senior Member

    The fact that admissions officers at colleges consistently choose white candidates over black, for one. (Even when two identical sets of candidates are submitted; one set with 'black' names and one set with 'white' names.)
  18. Seattle Valued Senior Member

    Any proof of that? Are you saying that blacks can't get into college? What about two candidates named John (one white and one black)?

    What are the top 3 problems facing an inner city black person? Is that one of them?

    If an asian person who name was Phong Kim faced this problem what would happen? Would his name suddenly change to John Kim? If Shoquisha Jones is having a hard time getting into Harvard I'm sure she is smart enough to become Sherrie Jones. This isn't a real problem. Your white guilt is showing.
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2020
  19. billvon Valued Senior Member

    That's a definite way around that. The studies I saw examined the difference between resumes with pictures and resumes with black-sounding names (one used "Jamal" and "Conor" as alternatives.)

    Yes, you could change your name and not experience that bias. I have a friend who named all three of her daughters ambiguous names so it would be more difficult to discriminate against them based on gender - and parents can certainly do the same thing with their children to make their race more ambiguous.

    Needless to say parents shouldn't have to do that.

    Certainly not if he doesn't plan to go to college. However, if that same sort of bias is applied in local job applications it is absolutely a problem.

    And they could just wear makeup to any in person interviews! You're a genius! They should make a movie about that.
  20. arfa brane call me arf Valued Senior Member

    And if you're white, it isn't going to be a problem for you if you get stopped by the police while driving, unless you're drunk or suspected of a crime. But even then you are much less likely to die during an arrest or while in custody, than if you weren't a white American.
  21. arfa brane call me arf Valued Senior Member

    Why do so many white Americans call 911 and report they feel threatened, even when they aren't actually being threatened by anyone? or that they think some black people are acting suspiciously, when they aren't?

    Why don't black people call 911 and tell the police they feel threatened by some white people, who are walking down the street suspiciously? My take is, the black people don't call 911 because they know they would be wasting their time.
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2020
  22. Seattle Valued Senior Member

    Why is it that no other minority group mentions or has an issue with "white privilege"? What if two black candidates apply for a job (in person) and one is Tami and one is Taquisha. One speaks well and one doesn't. Tami gets the job. Is that a racial problem?

    Black unemployment is at an all time low (before the virus). Why are we talking about all these excuses now?

    Who doesn't support black people today? Every city in the country has had protests and most of the supporters (protesters) are white.

    A black journalist wrote a book (a few years ago) called something like "Please stop helping us". The whole African continent could make such a request as well.
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2020
  23. arfa brane call me arf Valued Senior Member

    1) Black and Hispanic people are overwhelmingly the recipients of mistreatment and undue force from the police in America.
    2) There are millions of white Americans who celebrate the Civil War, as if somehow they won after all. What they seem to want is the freedom to celebrate their history of being traitors to the American flag and the Union, as something to be proud of, and erect statues of people who were traitors and who turned their back on the Union, because they wanted to keep slaves.
    3) America, through the vagaries of its electoral college which was instituted to allow slave-owning states more political power than they actually deserved or warranted, elected a white, privileged old man as their president, who is a racist asshole. Who lies with every breath, and who seems to think stoking racial tensions is good for him, because he doesn't give a shit about Americans or America.

    So, no, given all that, America is not a racist country. But dude, almost every country has a problem with racism, some more than others. So the previous sentence is demonstrably untrue: America IS a racist country, and it's about time they bloody-well did something. One thing they could do, is stop hiring racist rednecks and giving them police uniforms.
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2020 at 1:34 AM

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