A Livable Minimum Wage

Discussion in 'Business & Economics' started by scheherazade, Jan 6, 2018.

  1. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Nope. If the increase in minimum wage matches inflation then there is no net effect; the VALUE of their wages stays the same relative to the cost of living.
    ?? I didn't say that. I said that people willing to work for a wage doesn't make sense as an argument against any specific minimum wage. (Size increased so you don't miss it this time.)
    Right. It doesn't say anything about how raising the minimum wage increases inflation, either. Does that mean that that effect does not exist? Or are there effects of the minimum wage that are not covered in the FLSA?
    The minimum wage is a good tool to use to reduce poverty, by helping ensure that a person with a full time job doesn't fall below the poverty line. That is not in the FLSA either; it's simply math.
     
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  3. Vociferous Registered Senior Member

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    Even though it still raises the price of goods for everyone?
    Oo, oo, oo, another loud ape. Nice to meet you.

    Why does it matter what the "specific minimum wage" is if people are willing to work for less? Doesn't too high a minimum wage price some people out of jobs?
    Who said poverty didn't exist? You know, for someone who just made so much noise over a perceived straw man, I'd think you wouldn't want to immediately follow with one.

    I'm not talking about the effects of the FLSA. I'm talking about its stated purpose. If you want to use the FLSA to accomplish other goals, that's your business.
    The FLSA, nor even a higher minimum wage, is no guarantee against poverty or inflation.
     
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  5. Kittamaru Suppose it makes sense. Wearing a bit thin. Valued Senior Member

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    Don't feed the troll folks

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
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  7. Seattle Valued Senior Member

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    That's not a typical example of someone who is being paid the minimum wage. That is a case of someone apparently not quite qualifying for disability income, early retirement or whatever.

    That story is almost not even relevant to what we are discussing.
     
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  8. Seattle Valued Senior Member

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    I don't see a troll here.
     
  9. Vociferous Registered Senior Member

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    Would you say that's an anecdote to justify general policy?
     
  10. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    It's a common type, though. I've worked with a couple, known a couple.
    Be a lot cheaper to pay an adequate minimum wage than that.

    But again: the problem with a minimum wage is that it's a wage. That's an inefficient and problematic way to guarantee a minimum income.
     
  11. Vociferous Registered Senior Member

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    The definition of anecdotal.
    When did minimum wage become minimum income? And since when is the latter guaranteed?
     
  12. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    27,385
    That's one of the types of evidence found here, yes. It outranks no evidence, especially when argued.
    You missed the point. Try rereading.
     
  13. Seattle Valued Senior Member

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    A minimum income is something for society to decide to do or not do. A minimum wage is something that falls entirely on a business owner.

    If I try to start a small business, I can't do it by paying brain dead people $15/hr.
     
  14. Kittamaru Suppose it makes sense. Wearing a bit thin. Valued Senior Member

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    Well, there's your problem right there - zombies generally aren't very useful in the workplace.
     
  15. spidergoat Venued Serial Membership Valued Senior Member

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    If and when we decide that no one working 40 hours a week should be living in poverty. When we decide that social mobility, rather than income inequality is a better way to arrange a society.
     
  16. Kittamaru Suppose it makes sense. Wearing a bit thin. Valued Senior Member

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    But it's their choice to be impoverished... if they didn't eat so much damn Avacado Toast and go out and buy the newest iPhone every month, they'd be just fine.

    [/sarcasm]

    If only it wasn't a sad fact that we actually have leadership in Washington that believes such inane bullshit...
     
  17. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    14,522
    Yes, even though it raises the price of goods for everyone. If the increase in income is significant, and the increase in the price of goods is insignificant, then yes, it might well be a good idea.
    Yes - so we should not set it too high. It is a balance between a great many competing variables.
    No one.

    Are you perhaps answering someone else's post?
    Agreed. To repeat - it is merely one tool to use to reduce poverty.
     
  18. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Agreed. It's a subset. But they do in fact exist.
    Given that people are claiming that anyone can get a better paying job it's quite relevant. The above is an example of someone who cannot get a better paying job (and who will end up with a family.)
     
  19. Vociferous Registered Senior Member

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    Not when making public policy that effects everyone. No evidence is reason for inaction, while anecdotal evidence is reason for biased action.
    Not sure that helped. You seem to say a minimum wage is bad, but the solution is to guarantee income. One seems to have become the other.
    So a teenager flipping burgers should be able to support a family?
    Is income inequality an intentional thing?
    If so, DC and New York are top two.
    If the increase of income is significant, how can the increase in price be insignificant?
    Don't some businesses, like restaurants, already have too small of margins to absorb any significant increase?
    Don't those same businesses employ the least skilled workers?
    Exactly.
    YOU: "You want to raise the minimum wage enough to get minimum wage earners out of poverty"
    ME: "I didn't find anything about poverty in the FLSA."
    YOU: "?? Uh, OK."
    ME: "The Act that established minimum wage."
    YOU: "Right. It doesn't say anything about how raising the minimum wage increases inflation, either. Does that mean that that effect does not exist? Or are there effects of the minimum wage that are not covered in the FLSA?
    The minimum wage is a good tool to use to reduce poverty, by helping ensure that a person with a full time job doesn't fall below the poverty line. That is not in the FLSA either; it's simply math."
    ME: "Who said poverty didn't exist?"

    You seemed to be arguing the straw man that if it wasn't in the FLSA it didn't exist.
    All caught up?
     
  20. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Because wages are only one small part of what drives inflation. Thus the increase in wage can be significant (say 5%) and the increase in inflation can be insignificant (say .1%.)
    Definitely. And some families have too small an income to absorb any significant decrease in real wages. As always, it is a balance.
    Nope.

    I will let you play your asinine word games with yourself.
     
  21. Seattle Valued Senior Member

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    That's an example of someone that shouldn't have a job and should be provided for by society (the government) and is being provided for somewhat in that case.

    It's such a small subset that it's not a good reason for or against the minimum wage.
     
  22. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    That may well be true. In which case you have to compare the price of taking care of all those people vs the negative effects of maintaining (or increasing) a minimum wage.
    That also might be true - but you'd need to show some data to back that up before the US signs up for a risk like that.

    Most of us live in something of a bubble. Everyone here, for example, is smart enough to use a computer. And that may seem like a very low bar, but from my time working as a laborer and a waiter, there are a great many people below that bar, people we never see here. (And indeed that some people rarely see in their personal or professional lives.) So while it's easy to think that "almost no one is that dumb!" that's not a safe assumption.
     
  23. Vociferous Registered Senior Member

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    So $8/hr becoming $8.40/hr is significant? Would that do away with poverty?
    Any actual data supporting that %5 to .1% relationship?
    But worth the risk nonetheless?
    Do such ego displays do anything for you?
     

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