Argentina, Brazil recognize Palestine; Israel miffed

Interestingly, this is the only country that does this that you bitch about.

 

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Indeed. I don't know any other country where the religion is the race is the nationality

Do you?

 

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I can't speak for Geoff, but there are plenty of countries that call themselves multicultural democracies even though 95%+ of the population is Muslim, with non-Muslims in rapid decline. IMO there shouldn't be any religious states of any sort, period, but if Israel redefined its immigration policies to choose the people most compatable with their nation, i.e. those who seek to enhance what already exists in Israel and bring them the most benefits, the demographics would change very little in practice. You might as well gripe that the US doesn't open its doors unconditionally to all of Latin America, or that Dubai doesn't open its doors to the 75% of its population who built their emirate but never received citizenship.

 

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Will the Quran satiate your "curiosity"?

No actually there are many sources from all over the place discussing the historical Jewish presence in Hijaz. But let's stick with your arguments that it's mere oral tradition and has no factual substance to it. Aren't most accounts of Palestinian suffering during the Nakba also based on Palestinian oral history? I'm not talking about UN statistics keeping track of who fled from where, I'm talking about individual stories and allegations of Israeli war crimes. And what about the Quran? That's not tradition too? You have some independent means of verifying it that hasn't already been tried to death without success?

Seems to me you haven't done much reading on the subject at all. Accounts vary as to the actual fate of the Banu Qurayza, the numbers slaughtered and raped, etc. etc., but I haven't seen any Muslim historical or religious sources disputing that such a tribe once existed or that it was ethnically cleansed. I brought it up with you more than a year ago and you yourself essentially responded that the Jews had it coming for "betraying" Mohammed.

Indeed. A wonderful age it is, where you can use the technology we developed to spit venom at us, and we even have moderators who fiercely protect your right to do so.

Uhm no, at the time of partition in 1947 when the Palestinians had an opportunity to declare their independence, Jews comprised 33% of the population. Maybe you think Palestinians with Arab ancestry shouldn't be counted either- in that case, would even 1% of them qualify?

If there were regions of Canada where the federal government ceased to exert its authority and sovereignty, then the locals who maintain the infrastructure there would have the right to declare their independence, in line with the internationally-recognized right to self-determination, whether they were Muslim or Japanese or even humans returning after a 1000 year exile on Mars.

I never said they should be punished, nor did I call it a punishment that Israel should be forced to withdraw its claims to the West Bank and Gaza. What I am interested in is preventing the crimes of the past from being repeated yet again, and as bad as the situation might be today, I don't see how the Mufti's plans would have made things better for humankind.

I believe in punishing racists who act out on their views.

Sorry, you've got the wrong guy. I'm white, my DNA is of European origin, but I had nothing to do with any of that.

I think it should be up to the Jews to decide how they interpret their religion, just like it's up to you how you want to interpret hadiths about raping 9 year old kids. I'm glad you can be candid about your views, though- as long as attitudes like yours prevail in the Middle East, you won't be getting so much as a sniff at the UN-recognized Israeli state.

BTW, Tiassa, I'm so glad to see your active presence here in the interests of promoting respectful dialogue. Unfortunately, in this particular instance, your silence is utterly deafening.

I wish all cults were insular and kept their superstitions to themselves- then the brainwashing they impose on their children wouldn't cause nearly so much harm to the general society at large. So no, I wouldn't say Jews should be made to pay a Jizya for what they believe, but as is the same case for Muslims, the Jews shouldn't be permitted to impose their ways on others.

No, I live on land that belongs to the Canadian federation. As I mentioned before (and Iceaura totally missed the point), if the First Nations want to revisit the treaties they signed with the British, I'd personally support our government re-opening the books, and negotiating for an independent aboriginal state based on the lands they were actively using, and supporting documents from those times which they could use to make their case (not maps drawn in the present age by western-educated aboriginals, as Iceaura suggests). My preferred solution would be to switch to subsidizing aboriginals who integrate into urban Canadian populations rather than those who isolate themselves on distant reserves, with the goal that in a few generations all Canadians will be 100% equal and special status and discrimination are both forbidden, but that's a separate issue. Now your turn, how does it feel being a Muslim in a country where most people apparently view your ancestors as invaders?

How many "natives" assimilate with "native" culture, religion or language? Have you assimilated with the Hindu culture, religion and language? Like I said, there are many aboriginals who resent the nation Canada has come to be. I believe the underlying cause is clearly the wealth disparity between aboriginals and non-aboriginals, the cycle of corruption and poverty, etc., and the best solution IMO is to take new steps to create full equality, a fresh start if you will. But as I said, if the aboriginals want an independent state based on what they were using when the Europeans started colonizing, with the benefit of the doubt going in their favour in cases where doubt exists, I will vote to support the partitioning of Canada in order to grant them self-determination.

So now you're saying white people are genocidal? Are white people more violent and aggressive than other peoples placed in similar circumstances? Tell you what, if you ever get a chance to drop by Canada (hopefully on a very limited visa), you should go around visiting hospitals and explain to any natives being treated there about how they should die in extreme pain and misery rather than legitimize the spread of the European virus called "white man".

Wait, now you're saying the Jerusalem temple the Romans smashed was a pure fiction? How did the Western Wall get there? Well if your contention is that one day out of the blue, Tom Hanks led the Jews on a D-Day invasion of Normandy Israel, then sure, it would appear the Palestinians are being punished. In my view, the Arabs are punishing the Palestinians as much as anyone, by first seeking to establish a Palestinian nation and press claims on their behalf, then divorcing themselves from the consequences of their failure to conquer.

Well as much as you may try to project your own mentality onto me, I personally reject the comparison. My view is that neither the Israelis nor the Palestinians come first, hence a two-state solution is best unless both parties agree to a unified state. I wish the Arab nations would give the Palestinians and Israelis more of what they stole from Arab Jews, or that Turkey would give up its imperial conquests in order to avail more land for a fair and just solution, but I don't have the military power or emotional energy to impose such a solution on them, especially if the Palestinians themselves choose to waive any compensatory claims they might otherwise be able to make on such possessions.

 

Ho hum. Okay lets check all those "historical" sources which "prove" the existence of a Jewish tribe called Banu Qurayza in the Hejaz. I will provide the ones already provided before by me here on this forum:

1. The oldest source of this supposed tribe is Ibn Ishaq's Sira - or biography of the prophet. Written in 151 A H - ie approx 150 years after the incident. Except that we don't have the actual Sira, we have later versions of the story written by other historians alluding to the Sira and claiming it as the source. Out of which, one authority, Ibn Hafar, claims it is ghareeb, meaning it has no other verification at all, just the one instance while another, Malik, who was contemporaneous with Ibn Ishaq, outright claims it to be a lie.

2. Some people refer to the Quran and this verse:
"He caused those of the People of the Book who helped themto come out of their forts. Some you killed, some you took prisoner."

However, that is inexplicably not accompanied by any names or numbers. So we have to imagine that it refers to a Jewish tribe in the Hejaz

Thats for the sources

Now lets examine the narrative. According to Isjaq, his source was a client of the al Zubayr family and "others" . They all told him some parts of the story - who said what is vague and undefined. One of the sources of his sources whom he named is Abdullah b. Ka'b b. Malik, al Zuhri, 'Asim b. 'Umar b. Qatada, 'Abdullab b. Abi Bakr, Muhammad b. Ka'b of Qurayza. There is no evidence that this person existed

So we have some sources citing some secondary source as written by historians interpreting Ibn Ishaq who in turn interpreted the sources provided by his sources and put together a story which combined all the parts he was given

So that is the narrative.

All later historians quote the sources who quote Ibn Ishaq. Either they did not bother to look for independent confirmation which may be considered odd especially with historians like Tabari or there was no other source. Most historians consider the story far fetched or use words like "allegedly" when describing it, which is hardly surprising. There are UFO sightings which have more evidence accompanying them.

Now feel free to share your sources for this story, all the ones which are independent of these sources

The rest of your post suffers from Chosen People Syndrome and is a pointless justification for ethnic cleansing. So I'll not bother with rebutting why replacing the natives with the chosen of the chosen is a violation of human rights. You recognise it easily enough when its Jews on the receiving end of such lebensraum favouring the reinrassig

 

You've amply demonstrated - time and again, including your latest comments about this Israeli document - that you do not know much of anything about any of those categories. More than that, it seems that you actively refuse to learn about them. Or, at least, whatever knowledge of such you do possess gets totally short-circuited when the word "Jew" is involved.

So nobody really cares what you do and don't know of, when it comes to such things.

 

I know what I see.

OPT: East Jerusalem evictions causing suffering, anguish

Israel razes Bedouin village for ninth time

Democracy for Jews only

Israel’s Orthodox Rabbis: ‘Palestinians to the Ovens!’

CNN: Israeli soldiers sexually abused Palestinian children

Israel Torture Palestinian Children by Electric-Shocking

And what I see is that the birth certificate is truly representative of the state of Israel

 

Well. It appears that the Israelis may not be as dishonest as most.

 

Oh, and by the way. You don't "Know what you see".

You see what you choose to based upon that which you think you know.

 

Do I? Do I? Shucks! Gawrsh! I dunno.

Maybe...Pakistan? Saudi Arabia? Egypt? Iran? Sudan, I think. Indonesia? Even the frigging Maldives, I think? Should I...compose a list for you to ignore? :shrug:

By the by: no race on form. Have another dekko. Sorry to yank your goalpost out from under you.

 

once again your showing your prejudice of Islam can you prove your statement or are you just blowing smoke?

 

Um its the only country that does this. by doing this it a implying that the proper term for an Israel citizen is a jew.


despite your later claims that muslim countries do this it is a lie. muslim countries all list a real nationality an nationality. I challenge you to find a single country that list a religion as a nationality.

 

I gave you a list, Scooby. Look it up.

Bad-ow-bab-ow!

Oh, and while you're at it: prove Sam's pic is a) genuine and b) not a misprint by an asshole.

Bad-own-ba-bowm!

 

Are you a lazy bigot, or just an incompetent one?

Too lazy to support your own argument, Geoff? Or is it a lack of capability?

 

yes you gave a list. with zero proof and trying to disprove it I found the information is there. that being said the burden of proof is on you. you made allegations but no proof. according to your logic if I put your name on a list of serial killers and pedophiles that would make you a serial killer and a pedophile

that is for sam to do not me. I make no claims to authenticity.

before you pat your self on the back why don't do something first. same old geoff ranting about Islam but to good to prove anything. your like buffaloroam was, proof was something people had to show you not something you had to give.

 

Amazingly, Geoff is right, Israel is not the only country to confuse race/religion with nationality

South Africa used to do it too:

 

It's a disinterest in jousting with the dishonest, or idiotic. So I repeat: look it up. You might be surprised at what you find.

 

You realize perhaps that Sam's "reference" was a pic from a pic collection site, to all appearances? Completely unsupported? Well, that level of proof just blows me away: it's 200-proof, at least.

Wunning away?

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Come on, back up your compatriot. Are you worried or something?

Sorry: this from the guy who has yet to link to...anything, ever on the forum? Who doesn't seem to believe in them? Right.

Get back to me when you've learned something, children. I'll still be here.

 

perhaps but it looks authentic and I see no reason not to accept as such just from looking at it.

No I just don't like people as lazy and sloppy as you with their arguments demanding things of me they have no right to.

I don't see the point people like you never seem to read them nor take anything. secondly that's a bald faced lie something you know, what a surprise lying and trolling as always.




and their is a reason I don't when the righties here spat on a research paper I used as a source and demanded I surf through the works cited page for them I stopped. because if people aren't going to take the effort to follow through I see no piont if giving them links

So the lying conceding prick who doesn't no shit want people to leartn, why don't you come back when you learn something like how the hell to be honest

 

in others words fuck you it not my job to support my own argument. god your such a child Geoff.