Argentina, Brazil recognize Palestine; Israel miffed

Discussion in 'World Events' started by Tiassa, Dec 7, 2010.

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  1. Tiassa

    Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ...

    Question: How do you upset supremacists?

    Answer: Legitimize the people they're trying to wipe out.

    Israel has reacted angrily to Argentina's recognition of a Palestinian state within 1967 borders.

    Monday's move by Argentina comes days after a similar step by South American neighbour Brazil.

    The Argentinian foreign ministry said recognition was in line with the Palestinians' right to build an independent state.

    More than 100 states around the world recognise Palestine, their mission at the United Nations says.

    "The time has come to recognise Palestine as a free and independent state," Foreign Minister Hector Timerman said, adding that Argentina was "frustrated" that peace talks had stalled.

    Brazil recognised Palestine on Friday, and Uruguay said it would do the same next year. Costa Rica, Cuba, Nicaragua and Venezuela have already done so.


    Yigal Palmor, of the Israel Foreign Ministry, called the decisions to recognize Palestine irresponsible. Brazil and Argentina "never made any contribution" to the peace process, he laments.

    Nabil Shaath, a Palestinian negotiator, explained, "We don't say that such recognitions immediately end Israeli occupation, but it gives us a push forward and helps getting more recognition."

    Israel is constantly working to undermine the Palestinian Authority, perhaps in order to complain that the government in the Palestinian territory is illegitimate. But legitimizing a Palestinian government is key to solving the problem there. It seems in Israel's interest to empower the Palestinian government in order to hold them properly accountable.

    Unless, of course, Israel isn't actually interested in that.


    British Broadcasting Corporation. "Israel ire as Argentina and Brazil recognise Palestine". BBC News. December 7, 2010. December 7, 2010.
  2. StrawDog

    StrawDog disseminated primatemaia

    This could be the bump that gets the ball rolling. I think we may see more nations joining this club. :m:
  3. S.A.M.

    S.A.M. uniquely dreadful

  4. GeoffP

    GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum

    Excellent. A definite, positive step.
  5. quadraphonics

    quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian

    I'd prefer to see this done system-wide, for example at the UN level, but I'll take this. I've said for a long, long time that Palestine should just forge ahead and declare their own state - you don't get a sovereign country by sitting around and demanding that your enemies give you one.
  6. Someone'sBrother

    Someone'sBrother Registered Senior Member

    The Mayans of southern Mexico and Guatemala for a short time had a state of their own that was recognized by the UK. So I wouldn't celebrate just yet.
  7. Tiassa

    Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ...

    Snapshot: Palestinian Statehood?

    Snapshot: Palestinian Statehood?

    The Associated Press reported over the weekend:

    Bolivian President Evo Morales says he plans to recognize an independent and sovereign state of Palestine.

    Morales says he will send a letter to Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas announcing his decision and that in coming days "we also will send official statements to various international organizations."

    Bolivia joins Argentina, Brazil, Cuba and Venezuela in its recognition of an independent, sovereign Palestinian state with borders recognized prior to the 1967 Mideast war. Uruguay has indicated that it is poised to do the same.

    Meanwhile, in Israel:

    An increasing number of ambassadors and representatives of Latin American states have been walking the corridors of the Foreign Ministry in recent weeks. One after the other, like a red wave, they have come to meet with senior figures and diplomats.

    Some are "welcomed" with admonishments and protest, while some are heaped with praise – depending on their country's intentions regarding the recognition of a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders. The message they get in all the meetings is the same: Such recognition will harm the peace process and push the Palestinians away from negotiations.


    The Foreign Ministry, according to Ynet, was caught unawares when Brazil announced its intention to recognize Palestine, and after Argentina followed suit:

    The Foreign Ministry in Jerusalem is not dragging its heels. On Monday, acting Director General Rafi Barak sent instructions to all Israeli representatives of all ranks around the world, including explanatory and legal arguments against Palestinian aspirations towards international recognition of their state, and against their attempts to promote UN General Assembly resolutions condemning Israel. However, it seems the Palestinian wave continues to gather strength.


    Reserve Brig. Gen. Shalom Harari, a former Defense Ministry advisor on Palestinian affairs, explained:

    "Abu Mazen ... is operating in a problematic arena, while acting as a non-elected president. He needs outside assistance to stay afloat politically and outside legitimacy to show his nation that he is achieving something.

    "Now, after a list of achievements, including putting an end to the chaos, economic growth and security cooperation with Israel, the 'rabbits from the hat' have run out," Harari claims. "In such a situation of a lack of achievements, Arafat would have opened fire. But what we see today is a change of direction within the PA, which is part of Abu Mazen's big switch – 'we don't fire, we talk.' Some people call this new Palestinian approach 'a soft intifada' – they have moved from fighting with weapons [warfare] to a legal-procedural battle [lawfare], which is not violent and is welcomed by the West ....

    ".... The idea is to create momentum for the possibility of a UN resolution condemning Israel's settlements at the beginning of next year, and for the recognition of a Palestinian state by August or September 2011," he claims. "They are trying to pressure Israel through the international community, signaling – 'If you don't cede to us, you're going to lose everything.' Each time their state is recognized, Abu Mazen heaps praise and reaps the benefits."


    Joseph A. Klein writes, for Canada Free Press, that UN Secretary General Ban Ki-Moon blamed Israel for the latest failure in peace talks with Paletinians, and "did not discourage unilateral action by the Palestinians to obtain recognition of an independent state on their terms". He explains:

    The Palestinian strategy is evidently to run the clock until they believe they have the infrastructure in place to unilaterally declare statehood on their own terms and have a critical mass of countries willing to recognize their state.

    Palestinian Authority Prime Minister Salam Fayyad has declared a summer 2011 deadline for Palestinian statehood. This would be just in time for a likely summit meeting of world leaders at UN headquarters in New York next September. The occasion will be the so-called "Durban III" commemoration of the 10th anniversary of the Israel-bashing UN World Conference Against Racism, Racial Discrimination, Xenophobia, and Related Intolerance, which was held in Durban, South Africa. Durban III, which can be expected to portray the Palestinians as innocent victims of alleged Israeli apartheid, will coincide with the opening of next fall's General Assembly session.

    The stage will be set for a General Assembly resolution recognizing the state of Palestine within the pre-1967 borders and with East Jerusalem as its capital.

    The United Nations establishment appears to be on board with this strategy, which is intended to short-circuit Israeli-Palestinian peace talks and force Israel into further isolation as a pariah state if it doesn't accede to the 'demands' of the international community immediately.

    I'm of a mixed mind about that theory. Part of me says, "Yeah, and?" But then I recognize the "and". The tone of the last sentence in the excerpt above? Am I imagining some degree of frustration or bitterness?

    It's an interesting proposition.

    What is it, then? Injustice? Against Israel? I mean, I get that they're losing something in a Palestinian state according to pre-1967 borders. But what are they losing that makes the "demands" of the international community so scornful an idea?

    Is this one of those periods of history to which we will look back with puzzlement because it didn't really seem like it was coming until it was done? The JTA's Uriel Heilman reports that Palestinians have made much headway in public relations and diplomatic matters. The Palestinians, explains Heilman, have managed a string of successful public relations and diplomatic initiatives against Israel, which is "weakened by fraying relationships and a declining reputation internationally".

    Increased diplomatic relations abroad, especially in Europe and South America; Palestinian President Abbas hosting Israeli politicians and activists; negative opinion press; difficult Israeli relations with the Obama administration—recent months, Heilman asserts, have provided the Palestinians an opportunity to exploit Israel as a bully. Increasing negative response from the international community to various Israeli conflicts with the Palestinians "appears to have a greater chance of success" than the militant campaign.

    I admit part of the reason I'm fascinated with the possibility of this chapter opening next year is that, while I really couldn't tell when I expected a Palestinian state, I honestly didn't think it was coming any time soon.

    So I remain dubious, but, to the other, somewhat cautious in the scope of my doubt.

    We'll see how—if, when—this goes, I suppose. But I don't know if we're looking at a pebble or a snowball rolling down the mountain.


    Associated Press. "Bolivian president says he'll recognize Palestine". The Washington Post. December 18, 2010. December 21, 2010.

    Medzini, Ronen. "Israel fights recognition of Palestinian state". Ynet. December 21, 2010. December 21, 2010.,7340,L-4002381,00.html

    Klein, Joseph A. "Palestinians Likely To Declare An Independent State By September 2011 With The Help Of The U.N.". Canada Free Press. December 21, 2010. December 21, 2010.

    Heilman, Uriel. "Palestinians gain ground in PR, diplomatic war". Jewish Telegraphic Agency. December 21, 2010. December 21, 2010.
  8. joepistole

    joepistole Ordo Ad Chao

    Let them be miffed.
  9. S.A.M.

    S.A.M. uniquely dreadful

    If Joseph Klein and JDL-Canada are so worried about the "image" of Israel and Israelis, perhaps they should take their head out of their respective arses and take a dekko at what is going on in Israel

    Imagine if demonstrations against Jews were held in the manner that demonstrations against non-Jews are held in Israel. You'd never hear the end of it from the very same people who want to maintain a Jewish demographic by evicting Arabs, refugees and foreigners from Israel.


    Amazing to think that Jews in America actually fought to remove employment, housing and school segregation so as to include Jews and blacks.

    Meanwhile, back on topic:

    Chile has joined the other South American states in recognising Palestine. And the EU has boosted the status of Palestinian diplomats [whatever that means, it means that the EU and the US are lagging behind the rest of the world in taking action and will fast become irrelevant to the process]

    Don't know if its connected, but the Chilean recognition of Palestine follows an racist attack six weeks ago against a Chilean tourist in Israel. Apparently they mistook him for an Arab

    Ironic, these are white settlers attacking local semites. Jewish antisemitism.
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2010
  10. CptBork

    CptBork Robbing the Shalebridge Cradle

    Sounds fair to me, these countries are actually doing Israel a favour in the long term. If Israel has an alternative border proposal based on the 1967 borders which it thinks all these countries should accept, let them officially present it for once and stop building beyond it.
  11. countezero

    countezero Registered Senior Member

    If I can throw some cold water here, I'm not so sure this is the way to go about it.

    One state declaring the creation of another "state" seems the kind of thing that could very quickly degenerate into chaos. And, of course, we have plenty of examples of nations recognizing other "states" that were not legitimate (Afghanistan under the Taliban quickly comes to mind). The Palestinians need a state, but I'm reluctant to believe this is the way to go about it.
  12. Mrs.Lucysnow

    Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

    Having Brazil and Argentina, two countries which are not on the security council, recognize Palestine is irrelevant, it will not change anything for the Palestinians nor will it alter the fact that the UN doesn't have the power to force Israel into stopping the growth of settlements or making peace. You can have every nation outside of the security council recognize Israel or vote recognize Israel and it wouldn't change the situation one bit as the general assembly cannot override the security council decisions. Their own reports show the present land situation cannot be altered citing that the occupation is irreversible:

    "A UN human rights rapporteur has said continued settlement construction will probably make Israel's occupation of Palestinian land irreversible.
    Richard Falk said the peace process aimed at creating an independent, sovereign Palestinian state therefore appeared to be based on an illusion."

    So what is it that they believe exactly? Do they continue to believe or merely pretend that they have the power to alter the situation? Or are they simply diplomatically painting over a situation they themselves believe is 'irreversible' where a Palestinian State is based on an 'illusion'?
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2010
  13. S.A.M.

    S.A.M. uniquely dreadful

    I don't think a two state solution is possible either. But this will put pressure on Israel. What they do with that pressure remains to be seen. But the tendency for Zionists to cling to lebensraum will destroy Israel anyway, one way or the other. Whether they go the route of civil rights for all [ya thunk?] or forced population transfer and apartheid [the more likely option], they need to look towards their own future. Does having the US on their side make it better or worse for them? Will beating up South Americans because they look like Arabs lead to a golden future? Will treating foreigners, refugees, immigrants and all other non-whites and non-Jews like untermenschen really lead to a solution they can live with?

    And thats not all. Now we have The Real Jew being brought into question within Israel. After they get rid of the non-Jews, will it be Jew vs Real Jew? How much Jewishness will it take to make a Real Jew? 100%, 75%, 50%? What will they do with all the not up to the mark Jews? Does all this sound familiar?
  14. Mrs.Lucysnow

    Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

    Never mind about 'The Real Jew' or any of that, its totally wide of the issue. This thread is about a political shift. So...

    What kind of pressure can Brazil and Argentina force upon Israel that would be considered meaningful? Not much really. They are not major players in this game nor do they hold the coveted Security Council vote. What are they going to do? Trade with Palestine? Won't they STILL have to go through Israel? Sure they will. So as we have seen with the Hamas-Gaza situation, if the Israeli's decide to cut off some or all of Palestine there isn't much anyone else can do about it. And it still begs the question, where is this Palestine that they are mentioning? Do they know? And if what they recognize is a part of Israel (as Tibet is a part of China) then the point is mute and irrelevant. We can say we recognize Tibet as an independent nation but that still won't change the fact that its under China's control and that they do not recognize Tibet.
  15. S.A.M.

    S.A.M. uniquely dreadful

    The pressure to declare their borders. After all, what is recognition? The United States was first recognised by the King/Sultan of Morocco. Having a sufficient number of countries granting you diplomatic status when you already have a blueprint for the border [1967] and have offered a willingness to grant citizenship to everyone within those borders, well, the only option for Israel is to propose a counter proposal or declare war.
  16. Mrs.Lucysnow

    Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

    Declare war?:D I thought they've been warring all along.

    But seriously Israel has the advantage and full control, I think it would be very difficult to try and pressure them to do anything meaningful. Look at how they have been fluffing about for so long to the point that even the US under Obama gave up trying to stop them from building settlements. We can be waiting for another 20 years for them to declare borders, by which time they would have almost all the land.
  17. S.A.M.

    S.A.M. uniquely dreadful

    I think Israel has been so sharp they have cut themselves off from all possible resolutions which they could have lived with- where do you think they are headed? Possibly we may have to wait for 20 years for borders to be declared but Israel is at the feast of Dionysius right now and the sword is hanging over their head
  18. Mrs.Lucysnow

    Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

    Where do I think they are headed? Well let's put it this way, even if they take all the land and removed every Palestinian they will still never have piece. They will never have security or feel secure in the midst of what they consider to be their enemies.They will always suffer from their hyper vigilance.

    I think the sword is hanging over all of their heads.
  19. S.A.M.

    S.A.M. uniquely dreadful

    Actually, I don't believe that. The way I see it [but don't hold me to it :p] they can go one of two ways: either the ultraorthodox maintain their grip on the society and continue to separate out first, the non-Jews, then the half-Jews, then the intermarried, then... well by that time, the number of Jews will be very thin on the ground [as it is right now, there are more Arab Christians than Jews in the world, even with the flimsy whatchammacallit definition of Jew]. But the haredim don't work. They don't produce what is required to sustain their welfare checks. So there is an opportunity for the secularists to gain back power - but for this they have to make a very drastic choice. They have to quit defining the state as Jewish because if they cannot subscribe to the religious requirement, then its quite pointless to stick to the race part of it. The reason why they have a Rabbinate is wrapped up in the desire to keep the state Jewish. With the rabbinate deciding Jewishness, there is no common civil code in Israel. Americans would be surprised to know that Israel follows sharia law and this is why no civil marriage or family law is available in the state.

    From a horse's mouth:

    So its upto the Israelis to decide if they want a state or a Jewish state. I predict there will be a rapid brain drain in direct proportion to the increase in power of the orthodoxy. In which case like I said, either the Israelis go into perpetual war and destroy the state or assimilate the Palestinians and destroy the Jewish state.

    Ha! Americans are afraid of Iranian mullahs with missiles? Wait till they have rabid rabbis with nuclear weapons riding their asses! :D
  20. GeoffP

    GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum

    I wonder if other oppressed peoples like the Copts could be similarly recognized, even without the existence of a Coptic nation-state. Obviously the desire is particularly acute at this time of year.
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