Argentina, Brazil recognize Palestine; Israel miffed

What are you talking about ISrael has just that the only probalem you refuse to recognize as such. the palestinians are nothing at all like your bigoted descriptions of them

 

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I didn't say all Palestinians were like that, but for Israel to succumb to a mass demographic dump from Arab countries (aside from the refugees who fled those same countries), would leave Israelis exposed to xenophobia and racism from those who have hated them for many generations. I don't see why Israel should be threatened like that, doesn't make me a bigot to say so.

 

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Mass demographic dump?

Just to be clear, do you object to "mass demographic dumps" in general, or is this a specific case?

 

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I'm talking about this as a specific case. The Arab countries historically mistreated Jews and have brainwashed their populations to propagate this hatred through the generations. They kept hundreds of thousands of Palestinians in squalid refugee camps where their population has grown more than 6-fold since, and taught these refugees that their suffering and squalor is entirely due to the actions of the Jews, and that Arab nations had no part in their tragedy. If you're hinting at a mass demographic dump of Jews, obviously this is not a desirable thing in the modern age, but I continue to contend that Palestine fell under the sovereignty of more than a dozen different regimes, populations grew and died in that region as conditions changed, settlers migrated in and out from all over Asia, Africa and Europe, and the Jews were just a small part of that trend. I still contend that if the Palestinians had accepted the 1947 partition, they would have had effective control over 75% of the land (clear majority in 50%, near 50/50 demographic split in the other half), and it did not require any Arabs to give up substantial tracts of land to make room for the Jews.

For them to demand that Israel accept a two-state solution, pay the Palestinians massive financial compensation, and then on top of all this accept so many millions of refugees as to make the Israeli side of the partition into a second Palestinian majority state... I don't see what good could possibly come of it, it would be like shoveling all the Baltic states back into a united Yugoslavia. I think Israel and the Arab nations should negotiate a solution which shares the burden amongst them so that no individual nation is threatened with radical changes in ideology and quality of life.

Now here's where it gets very complicated. I do personally believe there are many Palestinians (possibly more than a million) who want to be part of the Israeli state, not so they can tear it down and replace it, but so they can enjoy its quality of life and relative democratic freedoms (freedoms which I acknowledge are now coming under heavy attack from the far right). I think a deal should be worked out so that at least some if not most of these types of people can be singled out for Israeli citizenship- like Jews, they understand what it's like to be bullied around by major powers, most of them revile Islamic fundamentalism because they themselves have been victimized by it, many of them are hard workers seeking good educations for themselves and their kids, they could only make the Israeli state even stronger, especially at a time when Israel's economy is booming like crazy and only looking to get hotter still. I'm sure there are many Lebanese and Sudanese Christians who "get it" and place high value in the state of Israel, and would make great natural allies and citizens too. But there are many Palestinians who seek the utter destruction and erasure of Israel, and I don't think Israel should be obliged to take every single one of these people into its lands.

 

Because you only need two for plurals

Historically in what context? By what time scale?

 

yeah actually you did. maybe you didn't intend to but given your history of comments for Israel and statements against the palestinian along the level of propaganda Israel throws around makes unwilling to give you the benefit of the doubt. a some or most would have seperated it from all hell the definite article THE would have done the same but you didn't use any of those.

???? elaborate. I can only come too two logical meanings from this phrase neither of them make sense.

the palestinians haven't for the most part hated ISrael for generations and if they did its because of Israel's actions against them.

No calling all palestinians xenophobes, racist, and religious radicals is. Typical say a racist comment and try to defend by claiming you were saying something else.( not typical for you typical of people trying defend racist statements)

 

so the palestinians must accept Israel as is. naked conquest and redefining a territory is one of those special jewish only rights than? what ever Israel claimed was legit for it to do the pals should be allowed to do in turn.(even though they would not do half the things Israel has done)

 

Excuse me - what has this to do with his point, or the facts of anti-Semitism in the Middle East? Which 'context' would excuse it?

 

For the record, and as you know, I am pro Palestinian liberation. At the moment everyone is losing. A negotiated solution is the only way forward, and IMO a T&R process can open the way forward to a peaceful transition. I do not believe Israel is yet ready to walk down this road. That can change via intense pressure, isolation and sanctions.

What do you suggest is the way forward?

I meant the line for all disenfranchised peoples across the globe, historically speaking.

Why cannot there be a restitution process as well as a legal component that allows for prosecution?

What do you think is the better option, indefinite occupation and uncertainty, or a viable process to address injustice and the standard of living for Palestinians?

 

well if your like me and want palestinians rights and such restored to there fullest there is no way. but to answer your question it really depends on what you think the palestinians should have to give up.

 

Don`t worry about what I think. What do you think is the way forward?

 

threaten military action if Israel doesn't get its shit together. force has been shown to be the language they understand.

 

And what do you consider sufficient shit that they - that them, those guys - should get together to avoid your invasion, Jingo Jim?

And who the invading will do?

 

Who will threaten?

 

*Crickets chirping*
I'll answer for him. A pack of miserable, spiteful wretches will threaten, that's who.

 

Issues of the General and Particular

Excuse it? Excuse what? What are you even on about?

I find Bork's assertion extraordinary; perhaps this wouldn't be the case if the point was better defined.

 

I would be very very surprised if there were any Palestinians who would prefer to live in a racist state rather than one with civil rights for all.

I'm trying to wrap my mind around your assertion

I do personally believe there are many Palestinians,blacks/Jews (possibly more than a million) who want to be part of the Israeli stateapartheid state/Nazi state, not so they can tear it down and replace it, but so they can enjoy its quality of life and relative democratic freedoms

How extraordinary!

As compared to what glorious moment in history when non-Jews had equal rights in the colonial Jewish state? I'm truly amazed at the profound stupidity of such a statement! What Jew would want to live in a state where he is stamped as being not a citizen in his ID card, where his education housing and employment is segregated, where he has no right of freedom of movement, where his spouse can only visit on weekends if they live in a wrong part of the country. Where people cannot get married unless they are of the same religion. Why in the name of heaven would anyone not want to tear down such a racist state?

 

The anti-Semitism. You're requesting complicating factors. That's great, but so what?

 

(Insert title here)

I'm sorry, but you're just not making any sense.

 

The Palestinians want whatever makes my armchair rhetoric sound good. The United States needs to beat the Jews over the head until they go along with my favored outcome. The Zionists must be eliminated.

Is it really so hard to see the overt imperialistic hubris in this sort of program?

Who really gives a fuck what anyone here imagines that the Palestinians think? How about you refrain from speaking for them, if you respect their will to self-determination so much? You don't get justice and self-determination by having people on the opposite ends of the Earth decide What's To Be Done about tokens in their psychodramas. All you get is an arrogant mess of projection - which totally infantilizes the parties to the conflict, and so reinforces the discourse of imperialism at the expense of self-determination.

People that don't understand such make very poor advocates of anti-imperialism. Because they are, of course, actually advocates of competing imperialisms, masquerading as opponents of imperialism per se. Sometimes that's kind of tragically hilarious. But mostly it's just risible.

If Palestine is to be free, then the politics of Palestine need to be brought back down into scale with the actual place. So long as it's a fulcrum of global civilizational conflict, self-determination isn't in the cards. Palestine lacks the heft to assert itself against massive external forces like that. Always has, and likely always will.