Argentina, Brazil recognize Palestine; Israel miffed

Discussion in 'World Events' started by Tiassa, Dec 7, 2010.

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  1. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    Nothing difficult about comprehending Israel's malignance. Sam's presentation of it doesn't strike me as especially fantastical, vague, or confusing. Wherein lies the difficulty? Maybe here:
    As platitude, maybe, but that isn't true in any relevant sense. Quite a few people down through history, in control of nation States, have proven to be so much more interested in expansion, glory, fulfillment of destiny, victory, power, or simple wealth, than peace, that they can hardly be said to be interested in peace at all - it would only arrive as some kind of side effect of their efforts in other areas.

    Israel has yet to show any real sign of having arrived at a situation where peace can float to the top of the job bucket. They are still expanding their territory and appropriating other people's resources, still compressing and fencing and herding and dispossessing obstacle peoples of all kinds, still pushing and militarizing and threatening and propagandizing. They live in a state of war, of violence, of oppression of others, and ruin every attempt to set things to rest. This can hardly continue to a good end, can it?
     
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  3. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    Israel can't afford peace. if they have peaceful interactions and honest education certain questions will be asked and those questions will destroy the mythology that that Israeli government has built and that Israel's jewish population ascribes to.
     
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  5. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Speculations about the reality of Palestinian identity are probably misguided, but that doesn't justify your accusation of Nazism or genocidal glee. I disagree with Buffalo on this to some degree; I'm not familiar enough with Palestinian culture to say in what way it differs from, say, Jordanian culture or Lebanese culture. The differences may be essentially quantitative along some gradient; is this distinct? Nationhood is one thing, but you're describing his questioning of this feature racist, which it isn't. (You ignore the Pan-Arabist movement that characterizes a decent proportion of the nationalist sentiments of the region, and the very labile perspective of early 20th-century nationalism versus today.) Anyway, this is all speculative. I disagree with Buff, but he isn't calling for their extermination, as I think you would like him to do. So you need to calm down.

    As for me: speculations about my beliefs are getting old and tired. It's not mod behavior, and there's no excuse.

    But (another 'but') since you bring up your erroneous attack on my failure to damn Buff - and damn him I will if I believe any different - let's have a gander at your own standings on guilt by association and by inference, shall we?

    Sam has been railing for some time now about the inherent evils of (Jewish) religious states. At different points, she's described how Jewish people 'attract trouble wherever they go' (it's a paraphrase, but it's no good denying it, as I recall quite well that it occurred); neither her nor you so much as tut-tutted at that or at the grouping of all Jews with Israelis by the people on the street yonder; and you call me bigoted. You say I must 'understand' the hate (some) Arabs and/or Palestinians have for Jews, but when I point out that some of the defensiveness and paranoia of Israeli attitudes were generated by the - literally - millennia of oppression against them, you throw yourself into a screaming rage. 'How can that justify what they do now?' you shriek. 'You're giving them a hunting license, Geoff!' and so on, all of which is pretty fanciful stuff.

    Deflating your bonhomie and replacing it Drang nach etwas was a poor move in the debate. It has resulted in the farcical mud-slinging now going on, with you and Sam working yourself up to greater and greater heights of frothing rage; I admit that I respond, simply because seriously. I have no reason to play nice if you're going to fling feces.

    I would ask what pj means by "mythology", but am reluctant to do so, for the obvious reason of getting involved in some kind of "debate" with him.
     
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  7. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Can't because its not possible

    1. Israel is a Jewish state, not an Israeli state

    2. Israeli nationality is defined and described by religion/ethnicity as Jewish, Arab or Druze, not as Israeli

    3. Non-Jews do not have the same rights as Jews in Israel as is demonstrated by the willingness of Israeli governments to deport non-Jews to maintain the Jewish "character" of the state.

    Also by the willingness of Israel to swap non-Jewish population with Jews

    So it is all Jews, not all Israelis, because the latter animal does not exist. Israel does not represent its non-Jewish population except for the purpose of hasbara. Its like insisting that apartheid South Africa represented all its citizens rather than just the whites.
     
  8. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    That's a rare defense of racism. I would ironically tip my hat, if I were wearing one.
     
  9. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    I agree, its chutzpah. Especially when they are insisting on population swaps and deporting non-Jews and still calling themselves "the only democracy in the Middle East"

    http://www.haaretz.com/print-editio...ren-preserves-israel-s-jewish-identity-1.6163

    Thats as blatant as racism gets. Imagine if the US started deporting Jewish children, how many buckets of allegations of antisemitism would these same zionists weep!
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2011
  10. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Well, then you should probably condemn it a little. Seriously. But then again, you do lump all Jews in with the most conservative policies Israel can produce, Cletus II.

    Well, that is deplorable. What's the solution?
     
  11. Bells Staff Member

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    Why am I not suprised that you'd partially agree with him.

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    So when he refers to them as being "Sick low life subhuman scurge" (because he decided to misrepresent a video), does that mean he feels all warm and cuddly for them and wants them to remain safe?

    Don't you get it yet Geoff? Buffalo agrees with the treatment of Palestinians. As far as he is concerned, their blood is worth less than that of Israelis, because to him, they are barely human. Do you even understand the significance of denying their identity? Do you understand how it dehumanises them and how history has shown us the dangers of such actions?

    And do you understand how Israel's policy of identity cards specifying if one is Jewish or not, how dangerous that in itself is? Those cards determine where you are allowed to live and what kind of services you have access to and how you're treated in Israel.. Do you undestand the dangers of such forms of classification and what such symbols represent?

    So when Buffalo comes out and says 'well it would never be a genocide because there is no such thing as a Palestinian'.. do you even comprehend the absolute horror of such a message and what it represents? And you defend him?

    What? You are offended that I think you are a bigot?

    And damn him you don't when he dehumanises them. Good work Geoff..!!

    I'm sorry, but any State that actively discriminates based on race and/or religion is evil in my opinion. Or does that fact escape you?

    Does Sam believe that all Jews follow and support their Government's actions? No. She has been quite clear. So the target of her ire is the Israeli Government.

    I understand that for you, if anyone dares criticise Israel or Israel's Government, then you consider it an attack on Jews, but really, learn to differentiate.

    So Israel should never be criticised because it is a Jewish State?

    Can you link where she has said that Jewish people attract trouble wherever they go? Show me where she said it. Paraphrasing it to be what you want it to be isn't going to cut it though.

    I point out that Israel is the most military powerful country in the ME who is fully supported financially and militarily by the US and are in no danger of such horrors as the Holocaust again.. You ignore that and continue on about how they are oppressed. They used to be oppressed. They are no longer oppressed. I point out that they now oppress others. You ignore it and press on about their being oppressed and then try to blather on about how one should understand their oppressing others because they were oppressed themselves in the past. I say that is no excuse to oppress or abuse other people's rights.. You ignore it and complain again about how they were oppressed and the dangers involved. I ask you how you can justify their treatment of Palestinians? You accuse me of shrieking..

    I never once even used the term 'hunting license'. You did. You keep attributing arguments to me that you bring into this thread. And you accuse me of being fanciful?

    Remember, I am not you.

    You have made spurious arguments and accusations without being able to back it up or substantiate it. When you are challenged for it, you resort to attempts of witty retorts and try to sway the debate off topic and accuse others of doing so. You then start ranting and raving, and accuse others of working themselves up in a lather. If you can't substantiate your argument and if you feel you have to resort to the Holocaust to win an argument or debate on the treatment of Palestinians, then you win at the internet (ie, you are a retard).
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2011
  12. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Quite clearly, most of the participants in this thread (at least from page 12 onwards [20 posts per page]) have become incapable of discussing the subject. All we've had for quite a few days here is personal accusations and sniping. All of it is off the thread topic, too. Nobody has come out of this looking good.

    It seems to me that none of Geoff, SAM, Bells, pjdude1219, quadraphonics, Tiassa or the Marquis are actually bigots. Nobody here is actually arguing that genocide is a good thing, despite the inevitable references to Nazi sympathies and the like. Nobody is arguing that the Palestinians aren't getting a hard time from Israel. Nobody is arguing that Israel is blame-free. Nobody wants the Palestinians wiped out. Maybe SAM would like Israel wiped off the map; for the rest, I doubt it.

    What this thread lacks is civility and sober discussion of the issues. While you're all name-calling and accusing, you're not really scoring any points. In fact, you're all doing quite a good job of making yourselves look petty and vindictive.

    It would have been good to see GeoffP support his contention that there are nations other than Israel that regard religion and nationality as the same thing, but such was obviously not to be. We've seen the usual hot air from SAM about how she stands for the oppressed and downtrodden, provided they are Muslim. We've seen some nasty accusations from Bells, who apparently doesn't approve of Israel and wants to focus that anger on GeoffP for some reason.

    Unfortunately, it was necessary to ban pjdude for taunting quadraphonics, who responded rather poorly to said taunt and has also been banned. (Before you start, the ban lengths are in accordance with accumulated infraction points and the ban cycle policy; I'm not playing favorites here.)

    It seems that the best course of action to clean up this mess is to close the thread, so that's it, people. Try to do better next time.
     
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