That is the only valid reason presented so far as to why the US Marines should not have micturated on the dead Taliban.
US Marines urinate on dead Taliban
- Thread starter Captain Kremmen
- Start date
That is the only valid reason presented so far as to why the US Marines should not have micturated on the dead Taliban.
Uhhh, agreed... I guess.
But you seem to be in the habit of describing the U.S., among other nations, as a "civilized" society--how so? That is, how exactly does the U.S. treat the LIVING in a "civilized" manner?
Also, you strike me as rather a humanist, I suppose, so by LIVING I'm guessing that you intend "living human beings," and human beings alone, right? Do you mean all human beings--including the uninsured, the impoverished, those who are imprisoned for selling the wrong drugs, the ones who are indefinitely detained--and quite possibly tortured and mistreated--without trial on vague suspicions, brown people, brown people abroad, et al? Or by LIVING, do you only intend certain relatively affluent, white folks?
You could say that about most war crimes. It won't amount to much of a defense in the court martial that these tools can expect in their near-futures, though.
So you won't mind when I piss on your grave, and you'll go so far as to chide any, say, family members of yours who found such to be morally offensive as hand-wringing pontificators?
And when I disinter your corpse, fashion your skin into a nice lampshade or attache case, and your skull into a chalice, this will also be acts devoid of any moral aspect whatsoever, yes?
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And since the clear presumption, at this point, is that they blatantly violated both US and international laws of war - according to no less than the military and political leaders charged with executive authority for monitoring and dealing with such violations - then... No?
Wait is this the same enemy that throws acid in young women's faces and beheads live captors?
Look, we all know that this is far from the worst of what goes on in war. We probably never hear about the worst of it. But these young Marines still need to be punished because only a stark difference between you and the enemy can clearly vindicate the cause. This type of behavior is the double edge sword that comes with armed conflict The countries and companies that need US armed services are perfectly aware of it. and they're fine with the USA bearing it for them. In fact it's a win win for most of them.
To be the premier military force on the planet comes with great responsibility and such requires that every rape, every murder, every "rule" broken in the theater needs to be swiftly and justly handled once brought to light..Commanders will fail at this. Anyone close to the "action" has a vulnerability to look the other way. We as civilians are charged with the responsibility to make sure these people are held accountable in every single instance we become aware of, precisely because we don't have the capacity to fully understand the battlefield. We don't ever want all Americans to have to understand the battlefield.
Look, we all know that this is far from the worst of what goes on in war. We probably never hear about the worst of it. But these young Marines still need to be punished because only a stark difference between you and the enemy can clearly vindicate the cause. This type of behavior is the double edge sword that comes with armed conflict The countries and companies that need US armed services are perfectly aware of it. and they're fine with the USA bearing it for them. In fact it's a win win for most of them.
To be the premier military force on the planet comes with great responsibility and such requires that every rape, every murder, every "rule" broken in the theater needs to be swiftly and justly handled once brought to light..Commanders will fail at this. Anyone close to the "action" has a vulnerability to look the other way. We as civilians are charged with the responsibility to make sure these people are held accountable in every single instance we become aware of, precisely because we don't have the capacity to fully understand the battlefield. We don't ever want all Americans to have to understand the battlefield.
Bells
Staff member
That is your excuse, is it?
No. I have not. Have you?
If so, how many dead bodies have you 'pissed' on in celebration?
The irony of course is that everyone feels disgust towards the Westboro Baptist lunatics who would piss on the corpses of American soldiers if given the chance.. everyone feels disgust that they hold up the vile signs outside of the funerals of soldiers. And rightly so because the Westboro believers are a vile and disgusting bunch of people because they celebrate the death of people.
And yet, here you are excusing these soldier's actions as being normal and acceptable and understandable because it is a 'celebration' after a battle.
I guess human decency, even in war, is a foreign concept for you?
But the people standing over them should be human beings. You miss that vital point.
And you keep missing the point that the soldiers dragged through the streets of Mogadishu had been killed before the 'celebrating' started. Why do you keep disregarding that? Or is it only acceptable for American soldiers to 'celebrate' this way?
So is it acceptable and understandable then? You know, since those American soldiers were dead and therefore, in your opinion, no longer human beings?
And Gitmo is a holiday resort centre. Indeed Arthur, it is "how you treat the LIVING that detemines if you are civilized"..
And what would you have us do with these POWs?
No, there are war crimes that are serious and this is just pissing on a corpse.
Most people can tell the difference.
Sure, because of PC wimps back in the states they probably will get a dishonorable discharge.
The only reason they will punish them is because otherwise you could expect a lot of pissing to start going on and you-tubes of them to spring up.
So, giving our enemies in Afghanistan a propaganda tool isn't deserving of punishment? The only question is how much damage this will cause, not whether it will.
There is a universal sense of rules of war. There are treaties and military law. The troops have a code of conduct they are trained by.
Things happen, people are not robots, they do go crazy.
But still, this behavior is not good for the mental health of the individual or the morale of the organization. Plus it's a huge distraction, embarrassing, and a propaganda tool.
Probably the guys involved are feeling bad about one or more of these consequences. Probably they are facing punishment.
I don't think desecrating a body is purely a religious issue. It's just insanely weird. But not weirder than killing. Who knows, maybe this was acting out, a kind of shock reaction. Maybe not, maybe the guys are hardened cold blooded killers. But I doubt it. They've been through a lot. I feel sorry for them. It's going to follow them for the rest of their lives. The killing, then addressing the dead body, then the pissing. That will be the replay. Guilt and remorse will kick them in the ass, like a lot of stupid things any older person regrets about the past.
Life was simpler before all of this unfolded. The whole petroterrorist vs. capitalist imperialist drama that has been going on for about 40 yrs at least. This is just one more installment.
No one should desecrate a body, regardless of the rules. To me, it's not the sanctity of the corpse at issue, just the sanctity of the soldier's innocence, the day before he went down and enlisted.
Things happen, people are not robots, they do go crazy.
But still, this behavior is not good for the mental health of the individual or the morale of the organization. Plus it's a huge distraction, embarrassing, and a propaganda tool.
Probably the guys involved are feeling bad about one or more of these consequences. Probably they are facing punishment.
I don't think desecrating a body is purely a religious issue. It's just insanely weird. But not weirder than killing. Who knows, maybe this was acting out, a kind of shock reaction. Maybe not, maybe the guys are hardened cold blooded killers. But I doubt it. They've been through a lot. I feel sorry for them. It's going to follow them for the rest of their lives. The killing, then addressing the dead body, then the pissing. That will be the replay. Guilt and remorse will kick them in the ass, like a lot of stupid things any older person regrets about the past.
Life was simpler before all of this unfolded. The whole petroterrorist vs. capitalist imperialist drama that has been going on for about 40 yrs at least. This is just one more installment.
No one should desecrate a body, regardless of the rules. To me, it's not the sanctity of the corpse at issue, just the sanctity of the soldier's innocence, the day before he went down and enlisted.
Considering you support mass murder to get rid of non-existent WMD's, yes it absolutely is.
POWs?
Aren't they "enemy combatants" or something else - anything to prevent them from having the rights of POWs?
Well, obviously it is a lot deeper than that. Pissing on anything is a sign of disrespect, religious or not.
The US army has lost all credibility with act's like these outside protocall. Not the first time either.
Exactly.
Bells
Staff member
How about classifying them as POW's in the first place?
But please answer the question Arthur. Do you think the Somali's "celebrating" by dragging the corpse of American soldiers through Mogadishu is understandable behaviour to you?
Yeah, they are actually unlawful enemy combatants.
Which is a somewhat lower status than a POW
But assume they are POWs, how would their treatment be any different than it is?
POWs don't get trials and POWs are retained until the end of hostilities.
But you are more than willing to pass judgement on the actions of people in a situation that is totally unlike anything you have ever experienced.
Like all the people pontificating about it as if they have a clue.
They don't.
superstring01
Moderator
I've read this entire thread and, believe it or not, I sympathize with a lot of your feelings. I think, "Eh, they are just corpses."
That said, there is a strategic issue here, one which the Marines clearly violated. I don't give a shit about the pissing, per se, or about the disrespect of dead bodies because--as you say--they are dead. There's not much worse that can be done.
It's the harm to the overall mission (whatever of it remains). I know all the cliches and I get why they did it (it is not uncommon for soldiers to treat their dead enemies as trophies and while I find it to be really immature, it isn't nearly as bad as how the living are treated). BUT. . .
There are two issues here:
A specious argument. One does not have to, nor is required to, experience every (or any) of the situations that the judged experience. I certainly don't. I can say, "The soldiers in My Lai were dispicable" or "Inner city gang-bangers are evil" or "These Marines crossed the line." I have that right and in fact, I have the obligation as a fellow human being to judge them and their actions. I don't have to be there. Our ethical abilities aren't disproved because we haven't experienced the same thing.
The military answers--ultimately--to civilian judgment. It is not except from people like me or Bells because we haven't been to combat.
~String
That said, there is a strategic issue here, one which the Marines clearly violated. I don't give a shit about the pissing, per se, or about the disrespect of dead bodies because--as you say--they are dead. There's not much worse that can be done.
It's the harm to the overall mission (whatever of it remains). I know all the cliches and I get why they did it (it is not uncommon for soldiers to treat their dead enemies as trophies and while I find it to be really immature, it isn't nearly as bad as how the living are treated). BUT. . .
There are two issues here:
- They've aided the enemy by doing this. However inadvertently, they've crossed the line. I am certain there are UCMJ or other rules of engagement that prevent violating a dead body OR the public celebration vis a vis humiliation of the dead enemy.
- They are dead. I get it, but this type of behavior is a clear indicator of some sort of failed training. It's not that I want warm, sensitive guys in the Marines: I do not. But, we have to have the expectation that the military behave according to a certain decorum, no matter how tempting it may be to act otherwise.
A specious argument. One does not have to, nor is required to, experience every (or any) of the situations that the judged experience. I certainly don't. I can say, "The soldiers in My Lai were dispicable" or "Inner city gang-bangers are evil" or "These Marines crossed the line." I have that right and in fact, I have the obligation as a fellow human being to judge them and their actions. I don't have to be there. Our ethical abilities aren't disproved because we haven't experienced the same thing.
The military answers--ultimately--to civilian judgment. It is not except from people like me or Bells because we haven't been to combat.
~String
But you have to consider the situation, and in the overall scope of things it's a MINOR infraction.
For instance it was earlier catagorized as a "war crime"
Really?
A fucking war crime?
Give me a break.
Killing a prisoner is a war crime.
Killing civilians on purpose is a war crime.
Inflicting serious injury on people who have surrendered is a war crime.
Attacking Red Cross personal is a war crime.
Pissing on a corpse is an insult.
Rational people can see the difference between an insult to a corpse and the criminal treatment of the living.