A group of visiting German intellectuals called on Berlin on Monday to change what they termed its Holocaust-rooted blind support of Israel, saying the creation of the State of Israel turned Palestinians into victims of the Nazi Holocaust as well.

The four, Dr. Reiner Steinweg, Prof. Gert Krell, Prof. Georg Meggle, and Jorg Becker, took part in a debate Monday evening at the Netanya Academic College on the future of German-Israeli relations. They were among 25 signatories to a petition on the issue that was circulated in the German media following the Second Lebanon War.

According to the manifesto, German responsibility toward the Palestinians is "one side of the consequences of the Holocaust which receives far too little attention." The paper goes on to argue that it was the Holocaust which Germany perpetrated that brought about "the suffering that has persisted [in the Middle East] for the last six decades and has at present become unbearable."

This, according to the manifesto titled "Friendship and Criticism," is because "without the Holocaust of the Jews, Israeli policy would not see itself as entitled - or forced to ride over the human rights of the Palestinians and the inhabitants of Lebanon."

Without the Holocaust, the document adds, Israel would not have enjoyed the same material and political support from the U.S. The researchers told Haaretz this also applies to support from Germany.

"So it is not only Israel which can lay claim to special consideration on the part of Germany. As Germans we share not only a responsibility toward Israel's existence, but also for the living conditions of the Palestinian People," the scholars concluded.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/955766.html


Wow!:eek:

Its good to see that people are waking up to the plight of Palestinians.

If we are fortunate, more Germans will open their eyes. The Jews don't get special treatment, not even if all but one was killed, no one in history gets special treatment.

Actually, more and more groups are popping up in the West and Israel in support of the Palestinians. Its a good thing. Maybe now Palestinian blood wont be seen as cheap. Wishful thinking? :(

No, that was their own fault. The Palestinian Arabs were so blinded by hatred, they could not feel compassionate towards the Jews, who were victims of genocide. Whatever suffering the Palestinians have endured through their displacement, they never went through a genocide. They are self-made victims.

spider i surpose you concider the same of the Australian aborigionals, the africans who were taken as slaves ect?

Dont get me wrong. I do believe in a 2 state solution. But that will only happen when Israel understands the reason for the widespread opposition towards itself and the Palestinians accept that Israel is here to stay.

No, that was their own fault. The Palestinian Arabs were so blinded by hatred, they could not feel compassionate towards the Jews, who were victims of genocide. Whatever suffering the Palestinians have endured through their displacement, they never went through a genocide. They are self-made victims.

fucking bullshit

Sorry, but I don't care NOBODY DESERVES SPECIAL TREATMENT

So the Palestinians never went through a genocide......I don't give a fuck, YOU GIVE THEM AMERICAN LAND THEN

Sorry, tough luck Jews, but i'm not giving you my land (from a Palestinian perspective)


Or should the Jews just get everything special treatment? Sheesh, tell them "boo hoo, get the fuck over it and stop killing palestinians"

No, that was their own fault. The Palestinian Arabs were so blinded by hatred, they could not feel compassionate towards the Jews, who were victims of genocide. Whatever suffering the Palestinians have endured through their displacement, they never went through a genocide. They are self-made victims.

And no, they are not self made victims because they didn't give the land to Israel, Israel took it.

Its not as simple as Israel took it. The actual decision to go ahead was taken by the US and the British.

Sorry, but I don't care NOBODY DESERVES SPECIAL TREATMENT

so how come the "Palestinians" are the cause celebre of the entire fucking world? surely their suffering hasn't been the worst in the past 60 years...

Its not as simple as Israel took it. The actual decision to go ahead was taken by the US and the British.

You probably believe that, don't you?

spider i surpose you concider the same of the Australian aborigionals, the africans who were taken as slaves ect?

Not at all, those are completely different.

so how come the "Palestinians" are the cause celebre of the entire fucking world? surely their suffering hasn't been the worst in the past 60 years...

Attention isn't special treatment.

The Palestinians are at least fighting for their land back. If the Jews wanted Israel, they should've conquered it.

I don't give a fuck what happened, does that excuse 1948? No. 6 million Jews died. Even if 20 million died, sorry Palestine is for PALESTINIANS.

What's wrong with a tiny Jewish enclave on the edge of a vast Arab empire?

if it means they are taking in the Palestinians then they have a go.

What's wrong with a tiny Jewish enclave on the edge of a vast Arab empire?

The fact that if YOU support them, give them YOUR land and everyone is satisfied. Yes, spidergoat, your very home, your very city. Move out tomorrow everyone and give it to them.

The fact that if YOU support them, give them YOUR land and everyone is satisfied. Yes, spidergoat, your very home, your very city. Move out tomorrow everyone and give it to them.

im sure the majority in Syria will remove you out of your home someday and hang you :D

im sure the majority in Syria will remove you out of your home someday and hang you :D

Why would they? No Syria is united and i am a patriot so no they wouldn't

Certainly you though.....you're not even a devout Jew, living in a Jewish Homeland!

FOR FUCK SAKE, Smilies are not CONTENT, if all you have to post is a smily DONT BOTHER

FOR FUCK SAKE, Smilies are not CONTENT, if all you have to post is a smily DONT BOTHER

LOL Sorry man :p

Norse, you once said that you only like very light skinned girls.. does that mean you don't like Syrian girls ?

LOL Sorry man :p

Norse, you once said that you only like very light skinned girls.. does that mean you don't like Syrian girls ?

What do you mean? Syrian girls are light-skinned in Latakia...........:bugeye:

What do you mean? Syrian girls are light-skinned in Latakia...........:bugeye:

Not that light skinned.. right ? :confused:

Not that light skinned.. right ? :confused:

In the west, yes...........? Light skinned like haifa wehbe

Palestinians certainly are victims of the Holocaust. Zionism was a fringe movement with no mainstream support from the Jews of Europe, who considered themselves Europeans first and Jews second--if at all. Even when WWII was over, the majority of Jewish refugees wanted nothing more than to go back to Berlin, Warsaw, Vienna and other cities and rebuild their homes and lives. But the Europeans didn't want them back. Yet they had to do something to atone for making antisemitism a defining characteristic of Christendom for a thousand years, particularly when they got a teeny bit carried away and literally tried to exterminate the entire population. So, led by the British with their legendary insight and sensitivity to non-European peoples, they came up with the brilliant idea of giving them someone else's homeland.

It was wrong of the Jews to accept this offer, but I can almost forgive them because they were desperate and desperate people do desperate things. I cannot forgive the Europeans of the 1940s for making it happen, for indeed making the Palestinians "victims of the Holocaust."

Jews had been living there ever since Roman times, with significant populations in urban areas. There was no reason for Zionism to automatically lead to Palestinian victimhood. The Palestinians were not victims of the holocaust, they were willing participants in it's last thrust against the Jews.

Palestinians certainly are victims of the Holocaust. Zionism was a fringe movement with no mainstream support from the Jews of Europe, who considered themselves Europeans first and Jews second--if at all. Even when WWII was over, the majority of Jewish refugees wanted nothing more than to go back to Berlin, Warsaw, Vienna and other cities and rebuild their homes and lives. But the Europeans didn't want them back. Yet they had to do something to atone for making antisemitism a defining characteristic of Christendom for a thousand years, particularly when they got a teeny bit carried away and literally tried to exterminate the entire population. So, led by the British with their legendary insight and sensitivity to non-European peoples, they came up with the brilliant idea of giving them someone else's homeland.

It was wrong of the Jews to accept this offer, but I can almost forgive them because they were desperate and desperate people do desperate things. I cannot forgive the Europeans of the 1940s for making it happen, for indeed making the Palestinians "victims of the Holocaust."


Yes, Europeans love to dump our problems on others. Zionism would not have succeeded without Hitler, ironic isn't it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xwC_GU0xt4

A group of visiting German intellectuals called on Berlin on Monday to change what they termed its Holocaust-rooted blind support of Israel, saying the creation of the State of Israel turned Palestinians into victims of the Nazi Holocaust as well.

The four, Dr. Reiner Steinweg, Prof. Gert Krell, Prof. Georg Meggle, and Jorg Becker, took part in a debate Monday evening at the Netanya Academic College on the future of German-Israeli relations. They were among 25 signatories to a petition on the issue that was circulated in the German media following the Second Lebanon War.

According to the manifesto, German responsibility toward the Palestinians is "one side of the consequences of the Holocaust which receives far too little attention." The paper goes on to argue that it was the Holocaust which Germany perpetrated that brought about "the suffering that has persisted [in the Middle East] for the last six decades and has at present become unbearable."

This, according to the manifesto titled "Friendship and Criticism," is because "without the Holocaust of the Jews, Israeli policy would not see itself as entitled - or forced to ride over the human rights of the Palestinians and the inhabitants of Lebanon."

Without the Holocaust, the document adds, Israel would not have enjoyed the same material and political support from the U.S. The researchers told Haaretz this also applies to support from Germany.

"So it is not only Israel which can lay claim to special consideration on the part of Germany. As Germans we share not only a responsibility toward Israel's existence, but also for the living conditions of the Palestinian People," the scholars concluded.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/955766.html


Wow!:eek:

Its good to see that people are waking up to the plight of Palestinians.



The uk took a piece of ireland a long time ago, we still have it, but now we see piece in ireland, they sent there terroists to the uk, all though they had the brains not to be brain dead martys, maybe its about time the palestine people & there many governments 2 now or is it 3, did a deal too israel is going no where, maybe your friends iran & syria can find it in there hearts to free palestine from being the puppets of these countries so they can stay in power in there own countries.

Palestine is nothing more than a pawn of iran, until that changes there will never be peace there, lebanon is nothing but a pawn too, & when iran chooses another war with israel will start again, whats it like for the entire muslim world to be a pawn of iran? oh and your spokesperson on world affairs be it cartoons in denmark or films in holland, we can always count on iran speaking for all of you 1st, try to cut you puppet strings then get back to me.

Sam what about the creation of pakistan, what are muslims doing in india?
yes they invaded you long ago, but why did 80million stay behind?
The uk invaded too but we did not stay behind to set up our own country in india, why are you not calling for the return of pakistan to india, oh its ok for muslims to steal land but not jews?

Pakistan is now muslim controlled, yet we still have them blowing up mosques every day there, so one can only guess that if israel moved out of the middle east the palestine people would still be blowing eachother up, & my guess is there would be 5 or 6 governments in palestine.
Yeah you guys really have your shit together, & yes we all should treat you as adults.

Just like the Indian attrocities committed in occupied Kashmir!!!!..wake up S.A.M??? this is yesterday's news!!!
http://www.gharib.demon.co.uk/atroc/index.htm
and more...
http://www.ihrc.org.uk/show.php?id=37
Kashmir has been the key to the dispute between India and Pakistan since their independence from the British in 1947. Each country claims Kashmir as a part of its territory. As a result of a rebellion in 1947 and the subsequent wars between India and Pakistan over Kashmir, the area is separated by a Line-of-Control (LOC or cease-fire line).
And don't get me started about the Indian treatment of their own Dalit people!! ...
It seems S.A.M cares more about palestinians than her own people!!!

Don't forget India and Israel have a good defence relationship.
http://www.india-defence.com/browse/israel/0
S.A.M I suggest to start looking at the facts before pointing fingers at other countries!
As it's said "He who is without sin shall cast the first stone"

Dont get me wrong. I do believe in a 2 state solution. But that will only happen when Israel understands the reason for the widespread opposition towards itself and the Palestinians accept that Israel is here to stay.

I'm basically against a 2-state solution. Reason, because Israel will never let an independent Palestinian state be.

I'm basically against a 2-state solution. Reason, because Israel will never let an independent Palestinian state be.

and its not the other way around? some expert.

Palestinians are actually victims of the fall of the Ottoman Empire, which was WWI. I wonder why they were unable to form their own nation at that time? Maybe there weren't enough of them.

Jews had been living there ever since Roman times, with significant populations in urban areas. There was no reason for Zionism to automatically lead to Palestinian victimhood. The Palestinians were not victims of the holocaust, they were willing participants in it's last thrust against the Jews.

Yes, but those Jews are Palestinians! They were SEMITIC ARAB/ISRAELITES, not fucking slavs.

Therefore, natives shouldn't be displaced for foreigners, unless you wouldn't mind if your homes were displaced for Mexicans.

No, there should've been a PALESTINIAN nation and only that, with Jews being allowed to live there not becaues of the high expense of another.

Bolded for the thinking impaired.

Foreign Office
November 2nd, 1917

Dear Lord Rothschild,

I have much pleasure in conveying to you, on behalf of His Majesty's Government, the following declaration of sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations which has been submitted to, and approved by, the Cabinet.

"His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

I should be grateful if you would bring this declaration to the knowledge of the Zionist Federation.

Yours sincerely,
Arthur James Balfour

Yes, but those Jews are Palestinians! They were SEMITIC ARAB/ISRAELITES, not fucking slavs.

Therefore, natives shouldn't be displaced for foreigners, unless you wouldn't mind if your homes were displaced for Mexicans.

No, there should've been a PALESTINIAN nation and only that, with Jews being allowed to live there not becaues of the high expense of another.
Jewish is Jewish. I'm sure many of those you call Palestinians actually came from other areas of the Middle East.

The Arabs got beaten on their own turf by a bunch of war refugees who barely escaped genocide. Jews aren't even particularly known for their skills in warfare. It seems the Palestinians hardly deserved to keep the land they inhabited.

Jewish is Jewish. I'm sure many of those you call Palestinians actually came from other areas of the Middle East.

The Arabs got beaten on their own turf by a bunch of war refugees who barely escaped genocide. Jews aren't even particularly known for their skills in warfare. It seems the Palestinians hardly deserved to keep the land they inhabited.

Jewish is religion, not nationality. The Jews already living there in 1948 are the only Jews who can lay claim.

But, even so, does that make it right? If Germany won the war in WWII, does that make them right? No. Jews, nonetheless, had taken the land of the Palestinians. It doesn't change that fact.


And yes, spidergoat, people who were living there for fucking generations certainly deserve the land than a bunch of fucking slavs just coming in.

spidergoat: "I'm sure many of those you call Palestinians actually came from other areas of the Middle East."

LOL!

"The Arabs got beaten on their own turf by a bunch of war refugees who barely escaped genocide."

No, the 1948 war was fought by healthy Europeans with front-line U.S. equipment.

"Jews aren't even particularly known for their skills in warfare."

They are now.

"It seems the Palestinians hardly deserved to keep the land they inhabited."

That's better: Since you believe in conquest, it is dishonest to put up any pretense about morality. If you think might makes right, just say so.

I'm basically against a 2-state solution. Reason, because Israel will never let an independent Palestinian state be.

I agree.

That's better: Since you believe in conquest, it is dishonest to put up any pretense about morality. If you think might makes right, just say so.

I think if you have a worthy cause, you will fight better. The Jews were passionate about Zionism because they saw it as the last line of defense against all those trying to destroy them, not just then, but throughout history. What would the Arabs fight for? Many of them were nomadic people anyway. They knew they should have been welcome anywhere in the larger Middle East.

I think if you have a worthy cause, you will fight better. The Jews were passionate about Zionism because they saw it as the last line of defense against all those trying to destroy them, not just then, but throughout history. What would the Arabs fight for? Many of them were nomadic people anyway. They knew they should have been welcome anywhere in the larger Middle East.

The palestinians obviously believe in their cause. Otherwise they wouldn't have survived this long. Plus they elected a government that they knew would have repercussions. I haven't heard anyone starting an insurgency against Hamas yet.

I think if you have a worthy cause, you will fight better. The Jews were passionate about Zionism because they saw it as the last line of defense against all those trying to destroy them, not just then, but throughout history. What would the Arabs fight for? Many of them were nomadic people anyway. They knew they should have been welcome anywhere in the larger Middle East.

OK, but that "defense against all those trying to destroy them" came at the cost of Palestinians' land and lives. It isn't acceptable.

If they want land, they could've had antarctica or some US land.

UM,.......for their land....?

I think if you have a worthy cause, you will fight better.

When you're fighting an enemy supported AND funded by the biggest arms trader in the world, fighting better has limited options. They are already using themselves as weapons. it does not get more desperate or more committed than that.

It did not take Indians so long from the first mutiny 1857 to Independence (1947) because they were not fighting better, just as the African Americans were not slaves for 200 years because they had got comfortable with the notion or it was not a worthy cause.

When you're fighting an enemy supported AND funded by the biggest arms trader in the world, fighting better has limited options. They are already using themselves as weapons. it does not get more desperate or more committed than that.


so desperate they wanna relocate us to the sea.

so desperate they wanna relocate us to the sea.

Well, whatever they wanna do they can do. After all, it is their land.

Well, whatever they wanna do they can do. After all, it is their land.

thank you for making that clear.

Millions of people lost their land during the communist revolutions of China, Russia, and Cuba, it wasn't the end of the world.

Millions of people lost their land during the communist revolutions of China, Russia, and Cuba, it wasn't the end of the world.

But it wasn't right either.

Also you said "revolutions". Palestine wasn't a revolution, it was just plain injustice.

But it wasn't right either.

Also you said "revolutions". Palestine wasn't a revolution, it was just plain injustice.

was it justice when jews lost their homes in europe? driven from their homes to israel by the arabs? driven out of the west bank in 29 and 35?

funny how you remember only one injustice.

was it justice when jews lost their homes in europe? driven from their homes to israel by the arabs? driven out of the west bank in 29 and 35?

funny how you remember only one injustice.

Hold on........the Arabs, in the Middle East, drove the Jews out of their homes in EUROPE in '29 and '35?

Take it up with the Germans, take THEIR land.


Spider, if anyone deserves to give the Jews a homeland, it's the Germans for destroying so many lives. Not Palestinians, who were just minding their own business for the most part.

There were hardly any Palestinians present when Jews started immigrating in numbers following the pogroms in Russia. There was plenty of room for everyone, but they couldn't get along, so they formed their own state. It was perfectly natural.

Hold on........the Arabs, in the Middle East, drove the Jews out of their homes in EUROPE in '29 and '35?

Take it up with the Germans, take THEIR land.


Spider, if anyone deserves to give the Jews a homeland, it's the Germans for destroying so many lives. Not Palestinians, who were just minding their own business for the most part.

Norsefire, you blibering idiot, Arabs drove the jews from their homes from arab countries, more then 800,000 in numbers, and the jews who lived in the west bank in 29 and 35.

Norsefire, you blibering idiot, Arabs drove the jews from their homes from arab countries, more then 800,000 in numbers, and the jews who lived in the west bank in 29 and 35.

Not from Syria.
Also, does that excuse Palestine? No.



Spider, sure sure, but still GERMANY should've been the one to hand half the nation to the Jews.

Not from Syria.
Also, does that excuse Palestine? No.



Spider, sure sure, but still GERMANY should've been the one to hand half the nation to the Jews.

youre a liar:

Rioters in Aleppo in 1947 burned the city's Jewish quarter and killed 75 people.[44] In 1948, there were approximately 30,000 Jews in Syria. The Syrian government placed severe restrictions on the Jewish community, including on emigration. Over the next decades, many Jews managed to escape, and the work of supporters, particularly Judy Feld Carr,[45] in smuggling Jews out of Syria, and bringing their plight to the attention of the world, raised awareness of their situation. Following the Madrid Conference of 1991 the United States put pressure on the Syrian government to ease its restrictions on Jews, and on Passover in 1992, the government of Syria began granting exit visas to Jews on condition that they do not emigrate to Israel. At that time, the country had several thousand Jews; today, under a hundred remain. The rest of the Jewish community have emigrated, mostly to the United States and Israel. There is a large and vibrant Syrian Jewish community in South Brooklyn, New York. In 2004, the Syrian government attempted to establish better relations with the emigrants, and 12 Syrian-Jews visited Syria.

1948 Jewish population in syria:5,000[12]-30,000[11]

in 2001: ~100

maybe the jews should get a piece of land from every arab nation as well huh?

and they say they dont have any problem with jews, noooo, not at all, only the jews from europe.

1947 was near the creaton of Israel, and therefore was done for political reasons (like what the Americans did to the Japs in America during WWII)

However, again, go to Germany and demand their land. They can't say no, they are the ones who caused the whole mess anyway.

1947 was near the creaton of Israel, and therefore was done for political reasons (like what the Americans did to the Japs in America during WWII)

However, again, go to Germany and demand their land. They can't say no, they are the ones who caused the whole mess anyway.

no need to, ive got a country already. :eek:

no need to, ive got a country already. :eek:

But you can get an even better one by leaving the one you're on (a desert) and going to take Germany. Also the Germans won't resist and attack you, so it's really better!:D

The M.E. "situation" goes back to before WW1 and the fall of the Britisch Empire. The Nazis were a resurgence of the whole "superior race" thing - the idea of a ruling tribe and also the land for them, that looks a little like colonisation (but the Nazi version included genocide).
It (the ME) was a religious war, too, and the creation of the state of Israel, is part of the ongoing East-West divide, that's been around for much longer.

But these days, when were all civilised and everything, it shouldn't be a case of oppression and racial and religious hatred, But it is. So the war isn't over after all. It's not really about religion or race, it's about territory and resources.

Not from Syria.
Also, does that excuse Palestine? No.



Spider, sure sure, but still GERMANY should've been the one to hand half the nation to the Jews.

Jews aren't even comfortable buying German cars, much less living among their ancestor's murderers.

Jews aren't even comfortable buying German cars, much less living among their ancestor's murderers.

Sure, but if they just opress, murder, and destroy the German people (like they do to the Palestinians, which don't deserve it, the Germans at least somewhat), then they can have it! After all, Germany OWES them. Palestine doesn't.

Jews aren't even comfortable buying German cars, much less living among their ancestor's murderers.

I don't think I've ever seen a Jew driving a BMW, Audi or Mercedes. :D

Why? The Nazis warned Jews to get out. Germany,or any land in Europe, is not the Jews homeland and had no right to the land. Germany was nice to the Jews way back when they were fleeing from the mongols. They screwed over the wrong people with the scheming of some of their leaders, betraying Gerrmany in World War I. A case of the "'big bad Jews" screwing over the "good little Jews', a reoccurring theme in the history of the Jews.

Do you see the Nazis in power today? Of course not. No, Germany does owe (certainly more than Palestine would) to the Jewish people and by that alone, the Jewish people should be allowed to get their revenge, or at least half of Germany without incident. That would solve EVERYONE'S problems.

I don't think I've ever seen a Jew driving a BMW, Audi or Mercedes. :D

LMAO, good one.

Why? The Nazis warned Jews to get out. Germany,or any land in Europe, is not the Jews homeland and had no right to the land. Germany was nice to the Jews way back when they were fleeing from the mongols. They screwed over the wrong people with the scheming of some of their leaders, betraying Gerrmany in World War I. A case of the "'big bad Jews" screwing over the "good little Jews', a reoccurring theme in the history of the Jews.

Another day, another jew hater on Sciforums. The more things change, the more they stay the same, no?

Jew hater? I deal in facts, not cowardly invectiveness like you.
I'd say blowing up a bus full of commuters is cowardly.

Are you denying you hate Jews?

I am saying let's put this behind us.

I'd say blowing up a bus full of commuters is cowardly.
Are you denying you hate Jews?

Evil and wrong? Yes. Cowardly? No.

Mod Note: Zarlok's posts have been deleted for anti-semitism and hate speech.

Spider, if anyone deserves to give the Jews a homeland, it's the Germans for destroying so many lives. Not Palestinians, who were just minding their own business for the most part.The Holocaust was a culmination of a thousand years of antisemitism by the Christian nations of Europe. The Germans may have been the worst but the Slavs were not much better. I have Slavic ancestors on one branch of my family tree and Jewish ancestors on another, and from family diaries it appears that the Slavs were doing their best to persecute the Jews in the 1870s. It seems to me that most of the European peoples share the guilt for making antisemitism one of the defining features of Christendom. Nazism arose in Germany because of the accidents of history that befell the Germans at the end of WWI, so the racial purity laws and concentration camps happened to be built in Germany when they were finally built. But can anyone say that if the course of history in the 1920s and 1930s had been any different, they would not have been built just as enthusiastically in Poland, Austria, Bohemia, Hungary, or any of a dozen other European countries?

I think that the larger European community had the responsibility for building a culture that made the Holocaust possible and the responsibility for giving the Jewish refugees a homeland did not have to fall solely on Germany. The very least they could have done was allow the refugees to return to their own bombed-out, burned-out neighborhoods and rebuild, which is what virtually every Jewish person of that generation I ever heard speak said they all wanted to do. And that was the one thing they did not want to do: welcome their Jewish neighbors back.

Nonetheless, I agree that the Palestinians were blameless. In general Muslim peoples in the Middle East had for a long time treated the Jews among them somewhat better than the European Christians did. Even the Turks, in their paroxysm of violence when their empire was crumbling, began annihilating the Christian people in their remote regions, not their Jews. This enmity between the Jews and the Palestinians, Iranians, Lebanese, Saudis, and to a greater or lesser extent almost every Muslim nation in the Middle East, is a very recent development and has everything to do with the establishment of Israel, by the British and other Europeans, in the middle of a Muslim region.I don't think I've ever seen a Jew driving a BMW, Audi or Mercedes.My wife has two Mercedes and she spent many thousands of miles on the back of my BMW motorcycle.

Palestinians were not victims of the Holocaust because the sympathy for the Holocaust was not why the UK, France, USA and the Soviet Union decided to support the creation of Israel. The foreign policy establishments of these four nations have never done anything (with the exception of defending themselves against Hitler) for non-Machiavellian, non-amoral reasons.

I can't prove it, but I think it was the Pan-Arab desire to form an alliance with Hitler that made the 4 victorious powers decide to push the creation of Israel through the UN. After WW1 Germany quickly rebounded and lashed out ferociously and powerfully. In 1947 nobody could have known that the Marshall plan would work and that Germany would not be launching WW3 in 1962. One of the major factors in defeating Germany in WW2 was that the Germans were cut off from their oil supply. Germany was also short one major ally.

Many Arabs were wanting to be Hitler's ally in WW2 because of the "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" principal. The British had promised the Arabs independence in exchange for Arab support in WW1. The British reneged on their promise and instead Britain and France tried to turn the Arab world into a collection of colonies and puppet states. The Arabs wanted a single glorious Arab state.

Although not much oil was being pumped in the Middle East in 1920 the British were aware that there was a lot of oil in the region, and were aware that oil would become increasingly important. The British intended to control that oil.

In 1947 the 4 powers knew they needed a safe base from which they could close the Suez canal if needed and deny Germany access to oil in WW3. Israel was that safe Base.

Jews (mostly recent unwelcome immigrants) were 30% of the population of Palestine and owned 10% of the Palestinian land in 1947. As the Jews arrived from Europe from 1880 to 1947 they were able to use their relative wealth as Europeans to buy land from Palestinian, Turkish, Syrian and Egyptian Landlords in Palestine. These landlords were often absentee land lords living in the neighboring provinces. Many tenant farmers had to leave the homes their families had lived in for generations when their landlords sold the land for European money. Land prices rose as the new money arrived from Europe. The Palestinians were also aware by 1910 that many of these new immigrants desired to turn Palestine into a Jewish controlled area. These wounds were the beginning of the Palestinian resentment against Jews, particularly European Jews. Palestinian protests pressured their Turkish rulers into banning European/Jewish immigration into Palestine a few years before WW1. When the British liberated/conquered Palestine at the end of WW1 they ended the Ban on Immigration to Palestine despite the objection and protests of the Palestinian majority.

In 1947 when the UN ruled against the Palestinians and gave away half of their homeland to the strangers, the Palestinians believed that they and their Arab neighbors so outnumbered the Jews, that driving the Jews out of Palestine against the wishes of the 4 powers and the 4 power controlled UN would not be all that difficult.

Because of the Holocaust they Jews deserve Israel and much more than Israel as compensation. Germany, Russia, Spain and Europeans in general had all sinned against the European Jews over the previous 5 centuries. Europe owed the Jews, but Europe owed people all over the world and never had any interest in paying of any of their other moral debts. King Leopold of Belgium killed a million Congolese and almost no Europeans cared. Further more, it was the Europeans, not the Palestinians who owed this debt to the Jews. The UN partition decision was clearly unjust because it made the wrong people pay the debt to the Jews.

The Palestinians should not be faulted for trying to evict the Jews in 1948. Their cause was just. The European Jews were trying to steal their land. As for the the claim that Israel was given to the descendants of Isaac, keep in mind that the Palestinians are probably more descended from Isaac than the European Jews are. The Palestinian have a higher proportion of Cohen Modal Haplotype than the European Jews do.

How would Americans feel if a hundred million Chinese became Mormons, then suffered a holocaust and then the UN and some very powerful nations tried to give half of the United States to the survivors of the Chinese Mormon Holocaust? The USA is the Mormon homeland, America is where Mormanism began, shouldn't the Chinese Mormons have a homeland of their own were they can be safe? Americans should just leave and make for the poor Chinese Mormons. Anglos already have many other nations; what do the need America for when there are so many Anglo countries like Canada, Australia, the UK, Ireland, Jamaica and India?

While the Palestinians should not be faulted for trying to keep their homeland they can be faulted at being unprepared for their war and underestimating the Jews and overestimating their allies. The Palestinians were idiots for thinking that the British appointed puppet King Abdullah of Jordan would rescue them. They had to rescue themselves just as the Jews had to rescue themselves. Some say that there is evidence that Abdullah had negotiated the Partiton of the Palestinian state between himself and the new Israeli emerging nation. There was one small battle between Jordanians and Israelis in 1948 but the "Abdullah was a traitor" believers point out that the for the most part Abdullah's forces simply marched in and occupied the West bank and never engaged the Israelis in battle despite Jordan's/Abdullah's claims that he entered the West bank for the purpose of fighting Israel. Abdullah was asasinated for his treason against Pan Arab nationalism.

Forces from Egypt and small forces from the other new Arab states did fight the Israelis. Israel won. You can only speculate what the Arabs would have done to the Jews if they won. You can only speculate whether the British would have intervened if Israel stated losing.

Now Palestinians and Jews have been killing each other for 60 years. What would have happened if the UN had only given the Jews 30% of Palestine and the British left a force to help protect the Jews?

Every Israeli attack is a retaliation for a Palestinian attack and every Palestinian attack is a retaliation for a Israeli attack and when the two sides can prove which came first, the Chicken or the Egg, then there will be peace in the Middle East.

An interesting summation, nirakar. I would only add that I do think it would be fair to consider the wishes of the Chinese Mormons, because it's not race, it's culture that matters.

Nazism was a symptom, and the Jews weren't the only inferior peoples (mental patients, Hungarians, and especially the Poles got the idea too).

And Nazism was really just one in a big list - they targeted Jews because they were targetable, and initially sought power and influence. But sure, Hitler loathed the Jews, but he loathed a lot of things (he probably loathed himself and his own insecurities and latent homosexuality, he was also a paedophile - just the guy you need in charge when you're looking for a bit of nationalistic resurgence).

The Palestinians and Syrians and Egyptians all came close to defeating Israel; arguably they didn't because of the determination of the West and the failed military/political systems in the East.
The East, and particularly the Middle bit, or the Arab world, still has nothing like the unity of Western nations, and it got "done over" by the Brits, Belgians, French, etc. like Africa did.

Well, depending on what time period you are talking about. The Arabs did conquer Spain and Portugal and controlled them for 700 years.


It's just a struggle. But with Semitic unity, we can eliminate this harmful foreign influence and truly rise to power.

Violence is a circle, jerk.

Mod Note: Zarlok's complaints about moderation have been deleted.

Jews aren't even comfortable buying German cars, much less living among their ancestor's murderers.

You have got to be kidding. They prefer Berlin over Israel, and thats Holocaust survivors.

Holocaust survivors have left Israel to live out the rest of their days in Germany due to the better conditions they receive there, according to a documentary program broadcast Tuesday night by Israel's Channel 2 television.


The documentary, Musar Shilumin (The Morals of Restitution) opened with an elderly woman speaking from her comfortable home in Berlin to two of Israel's best known docu-activists – Orly Vilnai Federbush and Guy Meroz. The woman's fluent Hebrew was spoken with an unmistakable German accent.


Contrary to Israel, the German government has stipulated that Holocaust survivors in need of housing and medicine are entitled to receive them free of charge. When asked what she thought of the Israeli government's attitude towards Holocaust survivors, she said: "I would not want what I think to appear in print."

http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articles/0,7340,L-3388445,00.html

Well, that's not typical.

Maybe, but the fact remains that there are Jews living in Germany, some of them Holocaust survivors.

Israelis already have a home, thanks.

They moved voluntarily to Germany, it was not my doing :p

If there has been a Holocaust of the Palestinians it is the Arab world who is at fault.

It was the Arab's and Moslem Nations in the Middle East who refused to honor the United Nation Treaty, that they signed upon receiving entrance to the U.N.

They started a war in contravention of their legal responsibility to uphold the Charter of United Nations.

The Arabs of Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Jordan, ordered the Arabs who lived in the Lands of Israel to clear the way so they could invade and destroy Israel.

Even today the Arabs would make more refuges:

Hizbullah calls for Israeli Arabs to evacuate Haifa: In a step eerily reminiscent of 1948, when Arab leaders called on Palestinians to get out of the way so they could invade and defeat the nascent state of Israel, Hassan Nasrallah of Hizbullah on Aug. 9 ordered Palestinians out of the way, so he can have a clear shot at Israelis. "I have a special message to the Arabs of Haifa, to your martyrs and to your wounded. I call on you to leave this city. I hope you do this. ... Please leave so we don't shed your blood, which is our blood."

Israeli Arabs say no to Nasrallah: One day later, a former Hadash (communist) member of the Israeli parliament, Issam Mahoul, rejected this advice. "We have nothing to do outside of Haifa, and we have no reason to panic. The Palestinian people are especially unwilling to be refugees of any kind again." Mahoul also recalled 1948: "Nasrallah should have known that in 1948 the communist party was also opposed to Arab residents leaving their homes." Shadi Mzawin, whose sister and grandparents were injured by a Hizbullah rocket, had choice words for the Hizbullah leader: "I hope Nasrallah gets a rocket between the legs for what he is doing to me here, for harming grandma and grandpa."

The supposed Holocaust of the Palestinians today is still the actions of the Arab States of the Middle East in that the States of the Middle East still will not allow citizenship to Palestinians Born in their Lands, they will not allow ownership of land by Palestinians, or even the right of having a job, or bank account.

So who is causing the supposed Holocaust to the Palestinians?

In Israel those Palestinians who stayed have jobs, own land, have bank accounts, and the general freedoms of any other Israeli citizen, can the same be said of those Palestinians who live in the rest of the Arab world?

Still don't understand why European Jews should be transported to Arab lands, rather than given refuge in Europe or US or some other Western country. Whats a western state doing in the ME, putting natives behind walls and conducting military raids on them for land?

There might have been a chance 50 years ago, but you can't simply re-do history at a whim.

Apparently you can. :)

Apparently you can. :)

when every jew hater uses the holocaust to de legitimize israel, when the memory of those victims can be stepped on for something as law as political gains, when in 60 years in the future no one will remember why Hitler was considered a bad man for killing 12 million people in camps for being a parasitic race, yes you can change history.


do you pray(prey) for all the jews to die? or just those who came from europe SAM? or perhaps youll go easy on those who accept sharia law huh?

when every jew hater uses the holocaust to de legitimize israel, when the memory of those victims can be stepped on for something as law as political gains, when in 60 years in the future no one will remember why Hitler was considered a bad man for killing 12 million people in camps for being a parasitic race, yes you can change history.


do you pray(prey) for all the jews to die? or just those who came from europe SAM? or perhaps youll go easy on those who accept sharia law huh?

Do you think it should be conditional for Jews to accept sharia if they want to live in Palestine?

Do you think it should be conditional for Jews to accept sharia if they want to live in Palestine?

i think they should hang them along side all the dhimmis who refuse to accept allha(swt) laws and hes prophet-the infidels!!

i think they should hang them along side all the dhimmis who refuse to accept allha(swt) laws and hes prophet-the infidels!!

Isn't that too quick and easy? Would it not be better to lock them up with limited food and electricity and bomb them occasionally?

Isn't that too quick and easy? Would it not be better to lock them up with limited food and electricity and bomb them occasionally?

wheres the fun in that? lynching raping and killing is the way to go. as the best tradition of Arab history, and hes prophet.

wheres the fun in that? lynching raping and killing is the way to go. as the best tradition of Arab history, and hes prophet.

Nah, that was already done by the Haganah in 1946.


Dier Yassin was bad but the events that unfolded October 28 1948 in the village of Dawaymeh between Beersheba and Hebron were even worse. I cite Pappe:

"Venturing into the village the next day the Muktar (Hassan Mahmoud Ihdeib) beheld with horror the piles of dead bodies in the mosque — with many more strewn about in the street—men, women and children, among them his own father... 455 people were missing among them around 170 children and women. The Jewish soldiers who took part also reported horrific scenes, babies whose skulls were cracked open, women raped or burned alive in houses, and men stabbed to death. These were... eye-witness accounts sent to [Israeli] High Command within a few days of the event."

Not very popular these days. The latest is secret prisons, torture, flushing scriptures in the loo, naked men pyramids, mutual masturbation at gunpoint, waterboarding, beating to death, occupation and air bombing. I think thats the acceptable form of liberation these days.

Nah, that was already done by the Haganah in 1946.




Not very popular these days. The latest is secret prisons, torture, flushing scriptures in the loo, naked men pyramids, mutual masturbation at gunpoint, waterboarding, beating to death, occupation and air bombing. I think thats the acceptable form of liberation these days.

hoooooooooo pleeeasseeeeee, you said a 10000 times how it was perfectly fine of the palestinians to kill and murder jews back in 29 because "they" were threatened, so be quiet you hypocrite.

hoooooooooo pleeeasseeeeee, you said a 10000 times how it was perfectly fine of the palestinians to kill and murder jews back in 29 because "they" were threatened, so be quiet you hypocrite.

You mean Israel allows foreign refugees in unlimited numbers? Palestinian ones that is.

You mean Israel allows foreign refugees in unlimited numbers? Palestinian ones that is.

in other words its ok to kill and rape jews, thanks for clearing that for our new members of the forum.

in other words its ok to kill and rape jews, thanks for clearing that for our new members of the forum.

Hmm is that what the Palestinians are doing? Or are we talking about the Israelis now?:confused:

The Jewish holocaust was a tragedy that defies belief. None of us on this forum can even begin to understand the anguish and suffering the Jews experienced. The survivors deservedly needed a safe haven, and that became the state of Israel. Unfortunately the Imperial powers created that homeland by clearing out someone elses backyard and using ancient history as a influencing factor. History cannot be undone, so the best path forward is to find a solution via dialogue. I think thus far all parties concerned are equally guilty at not giving this process a fair go. Unfortunately everyone loses until a solution of land division with UN backing becomes a serious notion with all parties willing to compromise to find a peaceful solution.
Alas that is not possible given the present geopolitical agendas. :(

Hmm is that what the Palestinians are doing? Or are we talking about the Israelis now?:confused:

were talking about fiction. palestinians are innocent beings incapable of harming another soul. they are just innocent victims :(

The Jewish holocaust was a tragedy that defies belief. None of us on this forum can even begin to understand the anguish and suffering the Jews experienced. The survivors deservedly needed a safe haven, and that became the state of Israel. Unfortunately the Imperial powers created that homeland by clearing out someone elses backyard and using ancient history as a influencing factor. History cannot be undone, so the best path forward is to find a solution via dialogue. I think thus far all parties concerned are equally guilty at not giving this process a fair go. Unfortunately everyone loses until a solution of land division with UN backing becomes a serious notion with all parties willing to compromise to find a peaceful solution.
Alas that is not possible given the present geopolitical agendas. :(

:roflmao:

Unfortunately everyone loses until a solution of land division with UN backing becomes a serious notion with all parties willing to compromise to find a peaceful solution.
Alas that is not possible given the present geopolitical agendas. :(

Maybe, maybe not.

I think we are closer to a solution today than we were before.

For one thing, the Palestinians are getting a voice in the west, for another, their demands for a secular state are the more acceptable option all around. Its only the US that supports a two state solution now, besides the Israelis and with a decrease in American geopolitical power, that will likely change.

Haaretz has reported that the U.S. - like its fellow members of the Quartet, the EU, UN and Russia - is increasingly unhappy with Israel's policies in Gaza. Rice's deputy, David Welch, even told the last Quartet meeting that the U.S. "is not comfortable" with Israel's operations in Gaza.


http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/956934.html

Maybe, maybe not.

I think we are closer to a solution today than we were before.

For one thing, the Palestinians are getting a voice in the west, for another, their demands for a secular state are the more acceptable option all around. Its only the US that supports a two state solution now, besides the Israelis and with a decrease in American geopolitical power, that will likely change.

the only thing likely to happen is war between east and west. the Islamic states have sealed their fate with their fundamentalism and hatred.

That idea is also losing popularity as Muslims come forward.

That idea is also losing popularity as Muslims come forward.

are this the ones that were driven out of Poland, or the ones who made the Swedish angry? ever met an angry Swedish?

are this the ones that were driven out of Poland, or the ones who made the Swedish angry? ever met an angry Swedish?

I met an angry Muslim Swede. Does that count? :p

I met an angry Muslim Swede. Does that count? :p

no.

Spock: "the only thing likely to happen is war between east and west. the Islamic states have sealed their fate with their fundamentalism and hatred."

The closer we approach a process of ethnic reconciliation in the Levant, the more we will hear zionist war-cries from atop their monstrous nuclear-weapons stockpile. When US support is finally withdrawn for zionism, we will be wise to insist on the return our WMD diaspora, back to their US homeland for disarmament.

Spock: "the only thing likely to happen is war between east and west. the Islamic states have sealed their fate with their fundamentalism and hatred."

The closer we approach a process of reconciliation, the more we will hear Zionist war-cries from atop their stockpile of WMDs.

so you are just a zionist hater?

great.

well, as a zionist(no?? he is a zionist???:eek:), i hate war as much the next guy, but im a realist, and as human nature dictates, war is inevitable.

Spock: "so you are just a zionist hater?"

No, I hate any oppressive political movement.

"i hate war as much the next guy, but im a realist, and as human nature dictates, war is inevitable."

That's not realism- it's zionist nihilism- a cynical pass-the-fuck.

the only thing likely to happen is war between east and west. the Islamic states have sealed their fate with their fundamentalism and hatred.

Not if secularism takes hold. Fortunately, it has done so in Syria and Lebanon, it just needs to be spread. I am against theocracy, as you know, and am also now against hizbullah and every militia group except Hamas and Fatah (since their goals are just)


Also, guess what.........ISRAEL is in the Middle East, so if a war breaks out between East and West.........good to have on our side, comrade!:)

No, hopefully we have a Semitic union.

so you are just a zionist hater?

great.

well, as a zionist(no?? he is a zionist???:eek:), i hate war as much the next guy, but im a realist, and as human nature dictates, war is inevitable.

So long as you say that, yes. War is a human creation, therefore we can also abolish it. This case, where there is a will, there really is a way.

Spock: "so you are just a zionist hater?"

No, I hate any oppressive political movement.

"i hate war as much the next guy, but im a realist, and as human nature dictates, war is inevitable."

That's not realism- it's zionist nihilism- a cynical pass-the-fuck.

its realism because thats the reality. you should choose a side. you prefer democracy or sharia?

So long as you say that, yes. War is a human creation, therefore we can also abolish it. This case, where there is a will, there really is a way.

only after we bomb one another will there be peace. this is the path YOU have chosen. just hope there will be enough of me after that.

only after we bomb one another will there be peace. this is the path YOU have chosen. just hope there will be enough of me after that.

Me? I have chosen nothing, I am in favor of Semitic unity.

Mr. Spock, a will is truly the most interesting, and greatest, thing in the universe. Politics are decided by Humans, and as is war. War is not a force of nature, it is a force of Humanity, and as Humans we can control the "forces of Humanity". If you truly believe that there can be no peace without war, then so be it, you are right. However, I like to think otherwise.

Norsefire: "War is a human creation, therefore we can also abolish it."

Absolutely correct, Norsefire. War is Over (if you want it). We've got to expose liars masquerading as peacemakers, and we've got to make war decidedly unprofitable.

its realism because thats the reality. you should choose a side. you prefer democracy or sharia?

Israel is a democracy?:eek:
I thought it was theodemocratic (a theodemocracy)


I prefer meritocracy, and am opposed to religious government. But the great thing, Mr. Spock, is that Syria is not a theocracy, it is secular. So YOU choose your side: unity or animosity?

Spock: "you should choose a side. you prefer democracy or sharia?"

That's not what present conflicts are about.

Spock: "you should choose a side. you prefer democracy or sharia?"

That's not what present conflicts are about.

That's also not the only two options.

Norsefire: "War is a human creation, therefore we can also abolish it."

Absolutely correct, Norsefire. War is Over (if you want it). We've got to expose liars masquerading as peacemakers, and we've got to make war decidedly unprofitable.

as long as greed is a virtue among others, war will be profitable. you cant change human nature.

Spock: "you should choose a side. you prefer democracy or sharia?"

That's not what present conflicts are about.

thats all it is about. power, control and religion.

I can mostly agree with that: Power and Control is right up front in all this. Religion stays in the back seat. "Holy" men clawing their way to the front P&C seats are imposters.

I can agree with that: Power and Control is right up front, and religion's in the back seat.

good, now choose.

as long as greed is a virtue among others, war will be profitable. you cant change human nature.

Certainly, that's why the point is to PREVENT war in the first place.

thats all it is about. power, control and religion.

Power and control, religion is just what the fundamentalists and terrorists use to get the people on their side.

good, now choose.

OK

Of the options: sharia, democracy but with animosity among my neighbors, or a Semitic union?

Easy choice for me, the third please

Spock: "good, now choose."

What is this, Sophie's Choice? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophie's_Choice_(novel))

I'll choose when I see a choice I want to make. There's no choice here, other than signing onto a trumped-up, bullshit culture-war or not. Religion gets hijacked often. So do all human institutions. This is not a predestined war between the Chosen Ones and the Philistines.

The morally wrongest thing that has ever happened on this earth is what Hitler did to Jews.
What some of my ancestors did to native Americans was very very very wrong.
What King Leopold of Belgium did in the Congo was very very very wrong.
What Turkey did in Armenia was very very very wrong.
What Sudan is doing in the Darfur is very very wrong.

The wars and killing and raping of civilian in the Congo is the wrongest thing going on in the world at this time. Two million killed in Congo during the Clinton administration during the African World War. Then the killing slowed down. A new bloddy phase began and is still happening now. Two million more Congoles have been killed in Congo during the Bush Administration. So why does Darfur get more coverage? Because in Darfur the killers are Muslims and Muslims are our current comic book enemies? If Hitler was an ally of America would anybody (except Jews) in America remember or care about the Holocaust?

Compared to the above horrors Israelis are very very nice to Palestinians.

But, two wrongs don't make a right. What the UN did to Palestinians was very wrong. What Israel did to Palestinians was very wrong. What the British did to Palestinians was wrong. What the USA has done to Palestinians is very wrong. The USA funds Israel and dominated the UN.

What Israel is doing to the Palestinians is very wrong, just not very very very wrong.

What Israel has done to the Palestinians is much much more wrong than what Palestinians have done to Israelis.

I don't differentiate civilian deaths by collateral damage from civilian deaths by deliberate acts of terrorism. When the powerful nations forces hide behind their hide tech military fortress and then criticize their poor enemies for hiding among civilians, this is hypocrisy. There would be no terrorism and no collateral damage and probably no wars at all, if wars were fought on a stadium playing field with the combatants and leaders of both sides fighting to the death in unarmed combat.

What the Palestinians would do to Israelis now, if they could do things to Israelis would probably be very very very wrong, but the Palestinians have little power, and so it is clearly the Israelis who have been the wronger party in this conflict.

Just count the civilian dead on both sides if you want to know who is wronger. If you think who started the fight matters, Israel loses that argument also. Jews went to Palestine with a plan that required that they take parts of the Palestinian homeland away from the Palestinians. That was the start of the conflict.

actually the brits tried to help the palis and stop the jews. they prevented refugees from coming to israel, all the while strengthening their ties with the arabs.

actually the brits tried to help the palis and stop the jews. they prevented refugees from coming to israel, all the while strengthening their ties with the arabs.

And yet the Brits were also the ones who called for an Israeli state to be made.

... but not at the Palestinian's expense, and not at the expense of multiculturalism, which had seen Jewish communities prospering all over the Mideast before 1948. Read the BD:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/8e/Balfour_declaration_unmarked.jpg

Jews went to Palestine with a plan that required that they take parts of the Palestinian homeland away from the Palestinians. That was the start of the conflict.

This is something that is often overlooked.

A group of visiting German intellectuals called on Berlin on Monday to change what they termed its Holocaust-rooted blind support of Israel, saying the creation of the State of Israel turned Palestinians into victims of the Nazi Holocaust as well..
victims yes, but not 6 million dead, refugee status yes
but more like unwanted refugees, since no Arab, country except Jordan has assimilated them, they've had to live in squalor, as cheap labor, as angry young men, I hear Yasser had $3 billion in Swiss banks when he died of AIDS
Without the Holocaust, the document adds, Israel would not have enjoyed the same material and political support from the U.S. The researchers told Haaretz this also applies to support from Germanythe seeds were sown in:
in 1881-84 by pogroms in Ukraine & southern Russia: http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005366
in 1894, by France's trial of Captain Alfred Dreyfus: http://www.zionism-israel.com/bio/biography_herzl.htm
1917 by the British gov: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration_of_1917
in 1922 by arab anti-Jewish riots: http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_riots_1929.php

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/955766.htmlyou know, you're quoting a zionist newspaper, don't you?
"So it is not only Israel which can lay claim to special consideration on the part of Germany. As Germans we share not only a responsibility toward Israel's existence, but also for the living conditions of the Palestinian People," the scholars concluded.
Wow!:-eek-:
Its good to see that people are waking up to the plight of Palestinians. the problem for the refugees is, that no Arab country has seen it in their heart to take them in, they told them that they could beat those jews in 1948, but no such luck, & that riles arabs, that a tiny little country of weak-kneed dhimmi jews can go toe-to-toe with them & leave them all beat & bleeding, on 5:1 odds

With a little help from the same friends who could not bear to take them in when they most needed it. :)

the problem for the refugees is, that no Arab country has seen it in their heart to take them in,

The Arab position is that assimilating the Palestinian refugees would be aiding and abetting the Israeli ethnic cleansing.

I often hear Israel supporters say that Israel should force the remaining Palestinians out of Israel and the "disputed territories". Israel supporters often say "the Arab world is so big, what is wrong with the Palestinians moving there?"

Can you see why settling the Palestinians would encourage Israel to ethnicly cleanse the remaining Palestinians? Israel supporters would say "problem over, no harm done", if the Palestinians were integrated into the other Arab nations.

If you steal my house from me, is there no harm done if my mother will let me sleep in her livingroom?

. . . . no Arab country except Jordan has assimilated them. . . . Jordan always seems to be the hero in times like these. Unfortunately it's a really tiny country and simply can't absorb a lot of refugees. They have also taken in a lot of Iraqi refugees. Meanwhile my country, which created those refugees, has accepted fewer than a hundred thousand of them.

I know there's a bit of controversy among the Arabs over whether the Palestinians are truly Arabs. DNA testing shows that they and the Lebanese have some common ancestry with the Jews.

Jordan always seems to be the hero in times like these. Unfortunately it's a really tiny country and simply can't absorb a lot of refugees. They have also taken in a lot of Iraqi refugees. Meanwhile my country, which created those refugees, has accepted fewer than a hundred thousand of them.

I know there's a bit of controversy among the Arabs over whether the Palestinians are truly Arabs. DNA testing shows that they and the Lebanese have some common ancestry with the Jews.

Well, good for Jordan, but we have too many fucking refugees coming to Syria and they are putting a real strain on our economy.

Palestinians are not really pure Arabs, nor are Lebanese and most Syrians, but they were all Arabised

Mod Note: Zarlok's posts have been deleted for anti-semitism and hate speech.
Heh. Apparently the fucking Slavs don't have enough sympathy or aren't topical enough to rate someone being banned on their behalf.

Hate speech is terribly subjective, don't you think?

Perhaps.

Israeli minister warns of Palestinian 'holocaust' - http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/feb/29/israelandthepalestinians1

:bugeye::bugeye:

:crazy:

Apparently the fucking Slavs don't have enough sympathy or aren't topical enough to rate someone being banned on their behalf.Nobody's forgiven the Russians for communism yet.Hate speech is terribly subjective, don't you think?This isn't my board so I haven't been keeping up with it and I don't know what posts you're referring to. If you think something is hate speech please bring it to the attention of a moderator. The name of the subforum, the date of the post and the name of the poster. Otherwise it's too difficult to find them by scrolling. We don't have a specific rule against hate speech because we have to let these kids get stupid once in a while, but the rules against trolling, racism and insulting other members often apply.

... but not at the Palestinian's expense, and not at the expense of multiculturalism, which had seen Jewish communities prospering all over the Mideast before 1948. Read the BD:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/8e/Balfour_declaration_unmarked.jpg

jews were never loved in the ME. that is why they were driven from their homes when israel was created.

jews were never loved in the ME. that is why they were driven from their homes when israel was created.

:bugeye:


















:crazy:

:bugeye:


















:crazy:

what part of my post didnt you understood or found difficulty to comprehend?

all i know is that the isreali war minister said he wanted to inflict a holocaust on the palistianians so much for the asserations that the isrealis want peace that doesn't involve completely offing the other side

jews were never loved in the ME. that is why they were driven from their homes when israel was created.

so than why did the babloyons invite them back go learn history

all i know is that the isreali war minister said he wanted to inflict a holocaust on the palistianians so much for the asserations that the isrealis want peace that doesn't involve completely offing the other side

How much you wanna bet this "Bigger Shoah" of the Palestinians receives absolutely no jaw dropping reactions in the west?:p

Like the 33 Palestinians killed in the last two days. :(

How much you wanna bet this "Shoah" of the Palestinians receives absolutely no jaw dropping reactions in the west?:p

well yahoo reported it. i am a firm beleiver that both sides are at fault but i have heard far more arab people saying that than jewish which is why i support the palastienians

so than why did the babloyons invite them back go learn history

i thought then it was Mesopotamia. clearly im the one needs to learn history. :rolleyes:

i thought then it was Mesopotamia. clearly im the one needs to learn history. :rolleyes:

whatever you said the jews were never welcomed in the area i proved you wrong so now your cranky

well yahoo reported it. i am a firm beleiver that both sides are at fault but i have heard far more arab people saying that than jewish which is why i support the palastienians

well at least you dont hide your hate for jews.

whatever you said the jews were never welcomed in the area i proved you wrong so now your cranky

thats beacuse you are a moron. i said it was in the ME not in the entire history of the area.

well at least you dont hide your hate for jews.

i don't hate jews one of my best friends at the one college i went to was a jew, shit i wanted to ask her out. just because i support the palastienian cause does not mean i hate jews are you just to paranoid to understand that

all i know is that the isreali war minister said he wanted to inflict a holocaust on the palistianians so much for the asserations that the isrealis want peace that doesn't involve completely offing the other side

care to quote where he said he wants to inflict a holocaust?

i don't hate jews one of my best friends at the one college i went to was a jew shit i wanted to ask her out. just because i support the palastienian cause does not mean i hate jews are you just to paranoid to understand that

you said

i am a firm beleiver that both sides are at fault but i have heard far more arab people saying that than jewish

notice you said jews, not israelis.

so? care to explain why?

and a jew shit????

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israels-warning-rocket-fire-from-gaza-will-result-in-a-palestinian-holocaust-790004.html?r=RSS

you said


notice you said jews, not israelis.

so? care to explain why?

and a jew shit????

sorry forgot the comma
i said jew because i have never heard of any jewish population that did not support the state of isreal other than some super conservative super othadox rabbis

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israels-warning-rocket-fire-from-gaza-will-result-in-a-palestinian-holocaust-790004.html?r=RSS

so where does it says he wants to inflict it? sounds like a warning to me.

continue to fire on israeli civilians, we will not hesitate to take actions. of course he is a moron and said it all wrong, but that is my personal view of him.

so where does it says he wants to inflict it? sounds like a warning to me.

continue to fire on israeli civilians, we will not hesitate to take actions. of course he is a moron and said it all wrong, but that is my personal view of him.

but you cannot deny using the same word isreali's use to refer to the 1940's holocaust is not a very good thing it shows at least from my point of view that the other people aren't human enough to be treated good

sorry forgot the comma
i said jew because i have never heard of any jewish population that did not support the state of isreal other than some super conservative super othadox rabbis

i can say the same about muslims, or liberals. thats still doesnt explain why you said jews not israels.

but you cannot deny using the same word isreali's use to refer to the 1940's holocaust is not a very good thing it shows at least from my point of view that the other people aren't human enough to be treated good

and from my point of view israelis arent human enough beacuse nobody gives a fuck when an israeli die, only for the terrorists that kills him, AKA "freedom fighters".

Apparantly it seems the Palestinians and Israelis will always believe the land is their's. Now, technically it is the Palestinians (ethnically, the "Israelis" are NOT Israelites and therefore they have no claim whatsoever to the Holy Land).

However, for the sake of unity, I say we integrate the two societies into a peaceful utopia, not under an Israeli or Palestinian banner, but under a new flag, and new state.

Is this not preferabe to all else, Mr. Spock?

... continue to fire on israeli civilians, we will not hesitate to take actions. ...Certainly self defense is a right of all, but IMHO, Israel is being surprisingly stupid about its choice of "actions."

For example, French paper Le Monde reports 2 Israelis have been killed in 2008 thus far by all forms of Palestine attackers and Israel has killed 132 in Palestine and 14 in CisJordan (West bank) in retaliation. That is a Kill ratio of 73 to 1. Even the Nazi in occupied France never went above 50 to 1.

If only the Israeli killed sub-teenagers and women are counted in the kill ratio, it is usually* well above 20 to 1 - which was the more typical Nazi ratio of their "collective punishment" applied only to men.

Note also many more Palestinians die as direct action of Israel economic policy - for example one with kidney failure with no power for the dialysis machine, or for lack of drugs in hospitals etc. The limited power has several times caused raw sewerage to flow in the streets, because the pumps do not work. The sewer treatment plants that can dump raw sewerage directly into the Med Sea if gravity will permit this.

From a long term perspective, the security wall is not so much a "Land Grab" as a "Water Grab." As you probably know, water is in short supply in Israel, and at least one plant already makes it from sea water. Most of the "Mountain Aquifer" was already Under Israeli control, but in places where it was in Palestine West bank land, the "security wall" has moved deeper into the West bank (by up to 20Km in some locations) to get more of it under Israeli control. Thus, I suspect that water, rather than poison gas, is Israel's planned "final solution" to the "Palestine problem."

It is clear, from Israel's actions, (The kill ratios, the unsanitary conditions forced on ordinary peaceful Palestinians, etc.) which have only made the problem worse with every passing decade, that Israel plans to occupy and control the area "eventually" via elimination of the Palestinians (Not by killing them all, but mainly making conditions so intolerable that they escape to other Arab countries, as many did when Israel was created by the British.)

Israel is very sophisticated. At the time Israel announced width drawl form Gaza, I posted the idea that they knew the Palestinians would soon be destroying each other in internal power struggles. IMHO, this width drawl from Gaza was also part of the plan to eventually eliminate the Palestinians.

A few years ago, I made some posts with very specific suggestions as to how Israel could protect itself from the relatively few who are actively attacking it, and undercut their support with most Palestinians, if Israel's long range plan were to live in peace with, instead of elimination of, the Palestinians.
*Exact value depends upon the time period chosen, but 20 to 1 is typical for intervals of at least one year duration.

so why did we initiate the peace process? gave them money and weapons? did nothing for 5 years when they killed israelis with suicide bombers?

and that is just in recent years. next you gonna tell me we sacrificed our own citizens to get rid of the palestinians? why was i left out of the this conspiracy i wonder.

so why did we initiate the peace process? gave them money and weapons? did nothing for 5 years when they killed israelis with suicide bombers? Even US presidents claim and Nobel prizes are given to have initated the "peace porcess" - there is no glory here with no peace.

I do not know the finances - but often I have read that Israel is keeping, reather than giving, the taxes they collect for the Palestinians. What money are your referring to?

Certainly it was stupid to "do nothing" - I support Irael's right to sefl defense, but not via "collective punishement and very high kill ratio, even when only children and women are counted.

Even US presidents claim and Nobel prizes are given to have initated the "peace porcess" - there is no glory here with no peace.

I do not know the finances - but often I have read that Israel is keeping, reather than giving, the taxes they collect for the Palestinians. What money are your referring to?

Certainly it was stupid to "do nothing" - I support Irael's right to sefl defense, but not via "collective punishement and very high kill ratio, even when only children and women are counted.

you are talking about a conspiracy to kill palestinians by the israelis. as an israeli i wonder, what are we doing for the past ten or twenty years the life of many israelis were cut duo time? if you havent heard, we are sensitive even when our soldiers die, or yet especially when they die.

so how is that adds up with your conclusion? it wouldn't be so hard to look at it from our point of view from time to time, instead of blaming us with imaginary theories.

i do remind you, you once thought i actually am getting paid for this by working for the israeli government.

Spock have you seen my last post on the other page?

...we are sensitive even when our soldiers die, or yet especially when they die. So are 20 or more Palestinians mothers greving for every Israeli mother who does so.
...wouldn't be so hard to look at it from our point of view from time to time, instead of blaming us with imaginary theories. Not "theory" - JUST STATING FACTS. I do draw the obvious conclusion that Israel has chosen to use high kill ratio, and bad living conditions to address the "Palestinian problem," instead of a technically feasible, perhaps even cheaper, defense plan, similar to my very specific posted suggestions (built in part on my 30 years of experience at APL/JHU with the defense of US navy ships). I.e. that missle/ CIWS system plus mine field, killer atack dogs along it, auto-matic counter battery fire, etc. and NO random fire into open areas as killed the family on the beach and many just picking olives etc.

...i do remind you, you once thought i actually am getting paid for this by working for the israeli government.Yes I did - You began intensive daily posting here and only in this Por-Isreal area just as the news leaked out that Israel was paying some college student to do that at web sites - That PR program quickly became counter productive and was dropped. As you are still posting and now in other area also, I now think I guessed wrong. - I.e. I do not believe now that your were amoung the "paid to post" student group.

So are 20 or more Palestinians mothers greving for every Israeli mother who does so.

tell you truth, i dont care for them, just like they dont for me. we offered them peace, they used it to hurt us, screw them.


Not "theory" - JUST STATING FACTS. I do draw the obvious conclusion that Israel has chosen to use high kill ratio, and bad living conditions to address the "Palestinian problem," instead of a technically feasible, perhaps even cheaper, defense plan, similar to my very specific posted suggestions (built in part on my 30 years of experience at APL/JHU with the defense of US navy ships). I.e. that missle/ CIWS system plus mine field, killer atack dogs along it, auto-matic counter battery fire, etc. and NO random fire into open areas as killed the family on the beach and many just picking olives etc.


we have attack dogs, mines, fence etc. they are not always working, and with all the liberals who feel sorry for those suicide bombers and katyusha rockets, that wont work.

what im astonished is that you actually think its a fact we want to eliminate the palestinian, especially after we left gaza, and voted for that move-olmert was elected based on that platform. what is more astonishing, that you do not even considering for a moment that wee did as a peace gesture, so that terror will decrease, to give the talks one last chance, and got, surprisingly, terror instead. and you actually think we want to control gaza at the expanse of israeli life, when israel talks for years about self defense, that half the people on this planet dont even recognize we have.


Yes I did - You began intensive daily posting here and only in this Por-Isreal area just as the news leaked out that Israel was paying some college student to do that at web sites - That PR program quickly became counter productive and was dropped. As you are still posting and now in other area also, I now think I guessed wrong. - I.e. I do not believe now that your were amoung the "paid to post" student group.

i wonder what else you were mistaken of.

tell you truth, i dont care for them, just like they dont for me. we offered them peace, they used it to hurt us, screw them.



we have attack dogs, mines, fence etc. they are not always working, and with all the liberals who feel sorry for those suicide bombers and katyusha rockets, that wont work.

what im astonished is that you actually think its a fact we want to eliminate the palestinian, especially after we left gaza, and voted for that move-olmert was elected based on that platform. what is more astonishing, that you do not even considering for a moment that wee did as a peace gesture, so that terror will decrease, to give the talks one last chance, and got, surprisingly, terror instead. and you actually think we want to control gaza at the expanse of israeli life, when israel talks for years about self defense, that half the people on this planet dont even recognize we have.



i wonder what else you were mistaken of.

the isreali's still controll access to the occupied lands and there aren't may on the othere side who want the complete elimanation of the jewish people

the isreali's still controll access to the occupied lands and there aren't may on the othere side who want the complete elimanation of the jewish people

no, not so many at all. most just want to "relocate" them.

Apparantly it seems the Palestinians and Israelis will always believe the land is their's. Now, technically it is the Palestinians (ethnically, the "Israelis" are NOT Israelites and therefore they have no claim whatsoever to the Holy Land).

However, for the sake of unity, I say we integrate the two societies into a peaceful utopia, not under an Israeli or Palestinian banner, but under a new flag, and new state.

Is this not preferabe to all else, Mr. Spock?

no, not so many at all. most just want to "relocate" them.

Again........

no, not so many at all. most just want to "relocate" them.

yes its only nuts who interpt the wanting of the elimation of the state of isreal and the relocation of the people who moved there as wanting to kill all the jews. lets face it the jews haven't lived there is some 1600 years after that amount of time i am sorry buit your claim to the land is minimal at best

yes its only nuts who interpt the wanting of the elimation of the state of isreal and the relocation of the people who moved there as wanting to kill all the jews. lets face it the jews haven't lived there is some 1600 years after that amount of time i am sorry buit your claim to the land is minimal at best

so you agree or\and justify them? how wonderful. and you said you dont hate jews, go tell a jew that lets see what he tells you :D

...we have attack dogs, mines, fence etc. they are not always working,...No you do not! – Nothing even vaguely like I suggested years ago (even before this old post):

http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=1124159&postcount=115

Please read it and my replies to questions and comments up to post 118, the last, where the thread "what would you suggest" (or something like that started by Bullalo Roam died.)

No one had any fault with suggestion that was not easily answered. Please feel free to raise new ones. - I will try to answer or modifiy my plan for making Israel secure, with a better future. (See my fears for Israel in last paragraph.) You may not agree, but I think I am a better friend of Israel than you are.

If Israel really wanted peace, instead of just for the Palestinians to go away/ disappear/ die of poor sanitation / lack of clean water etc. why not try this technological approach to the "Palestinian problem"? Three or four decades of the failing current approach to the "Palestinian Problem" should be enough stubborn stupidity. (Especially for a country that perhaps has the highest average educational level of all.)

I am very concerned that in another decade or so, the rockets falling on Israel will have Anthrax spores, not the relatively harmless explosives that kill at most 5 Israelis / year. Do you sincerely want to "stay the course" into that future?

No you do not! – Nothing even vaguely like I suggested years ago (even before this old post):

http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=1124159&postcount=115

Please read it and my replies to questions and comments up to post 118, the last, where the thread "what would you suggest" (or something like that started by Bullalo Roam died.)

No one had any fault with suggestion that was not easily answered. Please feel free to raise new ones.

If Israel really wanted peace, instead of just for the Palestinians to go away/ disappear/ die of poor sanitation / lack of clean water etc. why not try this technological approach to the "Palestinian problem"? Three or four decades of the failing current approach to the "Palestinian Problem" should be enough stupidity.

I am very concerned that in another decade or so, the rockets falling on Israel will have Anthrax spores, not the relatively harmless explosives that kill at most 5 Israelis / year. Do you sincerely want to "stay the course" into that future?

i thought the palestinians want us to disappear go away, fall back. silly me.

step one: give them more money? you obviously delusional. more money for terror? why not? throw ourselves to the sea and save them the trouble. less expansive?

i think you dont know what you are talking about. but i dont blame you, you read the liberal media.

OK, Spock, ignore my point then.......

so you agree or\and justify them? how wonderful. and you said you dont hate jews, go tell a jew that lets see what he tells you :D

i don't hate jews a jew might think i hate them for what i believe but that doesn't really bother me. and you do seem to hate the palastienians

i thought the palestinians want us to disappear go away, fall back. silly me. Sure they do - you would too if they land your father was born on was taken from you.

step one: give them more money? Yes, the first step is to pay compensation for land and houses confiscated. – That, I think, is very effective psychological warfare against the terrorists. - Redressing this old wrong would substantially cut into the numbers of them willing to die with suicide bombs.

But please comment on the more technical aspects -Steps 2 thru 7.

... i dont blame you, you read the liberal media.No, most of my facts (everything I know about the "mountain aquifer" and the security wall location claiming more of it) come from Israeli sources.

Again: Please attack the suggestion - not me.

Sure they do - you would too if they land your father was born on was taken from you.


actually they drove jews from the west bank. nobody remember this.

Yes, the first step is to pay compensation for land and houses confiscated. – That, I think, is very effective psychological warfare against the terrorists. - Redressing this old wrong would substantially cut into the numbers of them willing to die with suicide bombs.

we gave them money over a decade, including the US and the EU. terrorism only increased. you suggestion is wrong.

No, most of my facts (everything I know about the "mountain aquifer" and the security wall location claiming more of it) come from Israeli sources.

Again: Please attack the suggestion - not me.

the haaretz is as liberal as it gets.

...we gave them money over a decade, including the US and the EU. terrorism only increased. you suggestion is wrong. ...I am not suggesting "giving them money." - I only suggest that Israel PAY (GIVE NOTHING) for what Israel took by force and special laws as that would undercut the main argument of the terrorist as to why Israel must be destroyed. I think it unreasonable for Israel to give money to Palestinians. Israel itself needs foreign aid. (Is US's main recipient, I think.) - Certainly true per capital basis - by (I bet) AN ORDER OF MAGNITUDE.

Again" please comment on my suggestions. - not on some distortion, which I never suggested, like "Give them more money." - I oppose that and recognize it is totally impossible politically.

Not to forget that Israeli expansion is current and ongoing.

I am not suggesting "giving them money." - I only suggest that Israel paying for what Israel took by force and special laws would undercut the main argument of the terrorist as to why Israel must be destroyed. I think it unreasonable for Israel to give money to Palestinians. Israel itself needs foreign aid. (Is US's main recipient, I think.) - Certainly true per capital basis - by (I bet) AN ORDER OF MAGNITUDE.

Again" please comment on my suggestions. - not on some distortion, which I never suggested, like "Give them more money." - I oppose that and recognize it is totally impossible politically.

giving them what? land? in your dreams.

Not to forget that Israeli expansion is current and ongoing.

as long as were there no rockets and no hamas.

giving them what? land? in your dreams.No - not land but money at fair value of property when taken with reasonable interest included. I.e. some effort to treat them fairly.

Fortunately very few (according to several studies) actually want to return to the homes that were taken - many do not even exist now. A lot of noise is still made by political leaders about "the right of return" but very few of those with this "right" want to - they want money, even though the sum each would get is small. (Several generations with lots of kids in each make for great dilution of each's share.)

No - not land but money at fair value of property when taken with reasonable interest included. I.e. some effort to treat them fairly.

Fortunately very few (according to several studies) actually want to return to the homes that were taken - many do not even exist now. A lot of noise is still made by political leaders about "the righ