Surely molested. The blockade does make sense for both sides to some degree. I believe the issue Israeli stresses is the importance of choking Hamas while simultaneously trying to avoid humanitarian crisis. Under that pretense they choose manage the distribution in order that they may insure it is received in a way which does not benefit Hamas.
Zionist piracy
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Asian news is showing al Jazeera English feed with Israeli excuses side by side. You have Americans [Greta Berlin?] on one side saying, they [Israelis] murdered the unarmed passengers, camera feed on blood soaked passengers with IDF holding machine guns and Avital wazername saying all 800 passengers are Hamas who planned to attack commandos on the ship.
Laughing stock material
Laughing stock material
Bells
Staff member
Oh please.. You obviously don't watch the news.
BBC reports more up to date figures thus far:
Those ships were aid ships.
Unarmed aid ships.
What kind of country opens fire on unarmed aid ships carrying 600 innocent civilians? Knowing that there were 600 people on them and knowing that the ships were carrying aid?
Are you suggesting that Israel would not have opened fire and killed at least 10 peace activists if the media hadn't been there? Surely you are not so gullible?
How unfortunate for Israel that the ships were carrying media representatives to capture the brutality of the IDF in firing on innocent civilians on a frigging aid ship. After all, they could have massacred more if the media weren't there beaming it live.
Oh.. some more..
Guess what sunshine, they would have made less of a political point if Israel hadn't fired and killed "at least" 10 peace activists in storming those ships.
?
I get most of my news in the Newspaper, I don't own a TV. But you're right, darling, I should trust tweeters by an activist when it says they immediately opened fire.
why waste a bomb the 20mm cannons on the patrol boats could easily do the job.
What Israel is doing in Gaza is unacceptable by any measure, and civilian people are suffering because of a concentration camp style blockade. I also blame the rest of the world as much as Israel for literally not doing anything in terms of ending the tension in the region, and this reluctance causes more people to suffer everyday.
I don't have any doubts about the genuine feelings of these people who were carrying humanitarian aid. They are simply human beings who wanted to show their solidarity with people in Gaza. They also became the victims of Israeli security forces. Israel is not denying that.
However, there is also another story is going on behind this incident: Turkish authorities openly encouraged these people against Israel's clear warnings that these ships will not be allowed to break the blockage. Turkish authorities also knew that Israel would not change their decisive attitude. Yet again, they simply sent these ships allowing children on board. Why? Because Turkish government calculated that it will be a political gain for them whether or not ships were going to be allowed -with a miracle- or not -expected result. If ships were allowed, government was going to become an hero, "defender of victims" (this brings a lot of votes in Turkey); if they didn't, government was going to blame Israel yet still remaining brave defenders of Palestinian people (this also brings a lot of votes in Turkey). How? Sending civilians to confront with Israel army, knowing perfectly that Israel has little or no sentiment against civilians.
Why weren't there any Turkish officials to protect these people on board or as an escort? Why, on the other hand, the ships were literally dressed with Turkish flags? Flags represent countries, and Turkish flag represents Turkey: Same Turkey has started hostile diplomatic manoeuvres against Israel since January 2009. For this particular incident I blame Turkey as much as I blame Israel.
I don't have any doubts about the genuine feelings of these people who were carrying humanitarian aid. They are simply human beings who wanted to show their solidarity with people in Gaza. They also became the victims of Israeli security forces. Israel is not denying that.
However, there is also another story is going on behind this incident: Turkish authorities openly encouraged these people against Israel's clear warnings that these ships will not be allowed to break the blockage. Turkish authorities also knew that Israel would not change their decisive attitude. Yet again, they simply sent these ships allowing children on board. Why? Because Turkish government calculated that it will be a political gain for them whether or not ships were going to be allowed -with a miracle- or not -expected result. If ships were allowed, government was going to become an hero, "defender of victims" (this brings a lot of votes in Turkey); if they didn't, government was going to blame Israel yet still remaining brave defenders of Palestinian people (this also brings a lot of votes in Turkey). How? Sending civilians to confront with Israel army, knowing perfectly that Israel has little or no sentiment against civilians.
Why weren't there any Turkish officials to protect these people on board or as an escort? Why, on the other hand, the ships were literally dressed with Turkish flags? Flags represent countries, and Turkish flag represents Turkey: Same Turkey has started hostile diplomatic manoeuvres against Israel since January 2009. For this particular incident I blame Turkey as much as I blame Israel.
Bells
Staff member
So you don't trust the Israeli military?
Reuters is reporting the death toll as up to 15.
Now, who is coming out of this smelling badly Cheski, especially in light of this?
Well, I've never heard or read the news to report something as, "as many as 16 deaths". Typically it's "at least 16 deaths", or in this specific case "at least 2 deaths". In any case...I'm not sure what you expect me to say. I can say I've never had a pleasant discourse with you because you constantly use rhetoric and typically espouse a conflated emotionally driven response. Are you a woman?
Bells
Staff member
Are you sexist?
I mean, what a very sexist response from you Cheski. Should I be surprised that you are so sexist?
It is very apparent that the Israeli military does not yet know the exact number of peace activists it has killed. Australia is awaiting to hear that two Australian journalists who were on the flotilla are safe and well. As it stands, Australia does not consider Israel to be a "friend" after we deported one of your diplomats over the passport affair.
But tell me, what country storms aid ships and kills peace activists? What kind of country does something like that? Especially in light of world pressure and demands to allow more aid into Gaza and allow them to rebuild after Israel bombed them into oblivion?
How utterly shameful and desperate. Certainly, it will ensure that more people suffer and die in Gaza. Just as it is a certainty that Israel is looking like a bigger horses arse than it looked like a week ago.
What the fuck you're talking about?
Those activists are from 40 different countries. There are Jews among them.
They bear the flag because we gave the ships.
Escorts?
The meaning of humantarian civilian aid IS being UNARMED CIVILIAN AID!
They attacked unarmed aid ships and you suggest there should have been military escort on board?
Or you suggest that there should not be humanatarian aids at all?
Apart from being a horrible crime, what Israel did also against international laws.
Oh, but no, there is a muslim country involved so why not throw it in the mix.
What extra vote or political gain? It's been Türkiye's attitude since all this has begun. Far before January 2009. It has nothing to do with vote, it's what everybody supports in Türkiye. Even if the government was another one, everyone would support the aid.
Israel has shown its ugly face again and this time fucked up real good.
You are not just capable of saying it straight.
And trying to fabricate it into something's not, that's just full of crap.
So I guess you are.
I guess the issue is... is the reason it's even an issue really a remnant anti-semitism...or even direct anti-semitism? Yes, it's a poor state of affairs...but for a moment let's simply examine Palestine as a place to live.
All data according to CIA World Fact Book:
- As of 2010 Gaza has the 6th highest population growth rate yet only has the 27th highest crude birth rate per 1000
- Partly because it ranks 215th out of 222 countries in crude death rate at only 3.36/1000 annually.
- Life expectancy is 73.68 years which ranks 110th out of 224 countries.
- Literacy is 92.4%
In general...Palestine is very similar to other Arabic countries in the region and even surpasses many of them such as Oman, if you want to compare go to the UN Site and look up the data yourself. It surpasses the quality of life for the majority of ex-USSR nations.
So why does it comprise so much news time? Oh yeah, that's right...
Bells
Staff member
Which really has nothing to do with this discussion. So whether I am or am not "female", it has no bearing on this discussion, does it?
So, are you sexist?
So your sexism is a remnant of anti-semitism?
I'm sorry, so criticising Israel for opening fire on aid ships carrying peace activists is now anti-semitic? Oh, that's a new one. No, really, that's a new point in hilarity from you. Tell me, are you going to cry to the admin and have this thread closed as well?
Gaza sounds like paradise. No, really.
I'd take my children there to live if I could, but the fear of their becoming malnourished and developing rickets and anemia due to the lack of proper nutrition being allowed through the borders is a tad off-putting.
Because Israel bombed them and control their borders, resulting in death and suffering and then sees fit to attack aid ships carrying aid and peace activists in International waters? How utterly anti-semitic of the world to actually criticise such actions.
Which really has nothing to do with this discussion. So whether I am or am not "female", it has no bearing on this discussion, does it?
So, are you sexist?
So your sexism is a remnant of anti-semitism?
I'm sorry, so criticising Israel for opening fire on aid ships carrying peace activists is now anti-semitic? Oh, that's a new one. No, really, that's a new point in hilarity from you. Tell me, are you going to cry to the admin and have this thread closed as well?
Gaza sounds like paradise. No, really.
I'd take my children there to live if I could, but the fear of their becoming malnourished and developing rickets and anemia due to the lack of proper nutrition being allowed through the borders is a tad off-putting.
Because Israel bombed them and control their borders, resulting in death and suffering and then sees fit to attack aid ships carrying aid and peace activists in International waters? How utterly anti-semitic of the world to actually criticise such actions.
If after living with and speaking with women for all of my life and concluding that they're typically more emotionally driven makes me sexist, then yes I am.
You act like I'm saying the criticism its self is antisemitic, I'm not....it's not a difficult distinction. The fact that it's prevalently news is the antisemitic part. While America has sex trafficking occurring on its southern border, people are being slaughtered in northern Africa (where death rates are worse than 6th best in the world), where human organs are being admittedly harvested by the Chinese government from inmates on death row...and where people in Detroit have worse quality of life than Gaza. Israel is at the end of how many humanitarian rights sights? Why? Is it because they're the most brutal? (because they're obviously not if Palestine has a better quality of life than more than half of the world). Or is it because certain countries...and certain people...don't like them?
Bells
Staff member
Oh, I am not emotionally driven. If I was, I would not be doing the work that I do.
You act like I'm saying the criticism its self is antisemitic, I'm not....it's not a difficult distinction. The fact that it's prevalently news is the antisemitic part. While America has sex trafficking occurring on its southern border, people are being slaughtered in northern Africa (where death rates are worse than 6th best in the world), where human organs are being admittedly harvested by the Chinese government from inmates on death row...and where people in Detroit have worse quality of life than Gaza. Israel is at the end of how many humanitarian rights sights? Why? Is it because they're the most brutal? (because they're obviously not if Palestine has a better quality of life than more than half of the world). Or is it because certain countries...and certain people...don't like them?
Actually, it is more that attention is given to the human rights abuses of Israel in particular, because of all a country who would be the absolute last to commit such crimes, the Government of Israel should be the last.
Israel is in the sights of so many humanitarian rights groups, as well as the UN and many human rights organisations because it consistently, knowingly and willingly commits gross human rights abuses against a people who are, aside from those who decide to become suicide bombers, defenseless. It is not that Israel isn't liked. It is that Israel should know better and do better.
It is easy to say that any criticism that Israel may get from human rights groups, the UN or other countries is because of anti-semitism. It has become an easy defense. Instead of addressing what these rights groups are pointing out, the only defense Israel sees fit to give is to cry anti-semitism. I'm sorry, but that isn't washing any more. I mean Israel has been at this for 60 years now. So if Israel is being lumped in with countries that commit gross human rights abuses, it is no other country's fault but that of Israel.
hmm...
Have you ever seen an actual UN Tribunal?
For every UN session since at least 1990 (not sure of a date, I'd have to go way back and look) there have been more agenda items targeting Israel than the rest of the world combined in each agenda docket for the human rights council. In some cases, such as last year, nearly three quarters of the entire agenda were dedicated to Israel alone. Ironically, Israeli rights groups weren't permitted to attend to do local laws and customs...if you can recall that far back, most of Europe and the Americas walked out or simply didn't attend the session.
If you superimpose this image the UN proposes upon the CIA Factbook's representation of Palestine with regards to the rest of the worlds population, is there really congruence? I've come to accept that people such as your self disregard any proclamation of bigotry, since your support of their assemblage may imply guilt of association. And thus their indictment is presumably your indictment, it's not so.
Have you ever noticed the cadence of anti-Israeli propaganda? Did you ever wonder where the base funding for anti-Israel groups comes from? hmmm
I didn't say that they were only Turks on the ship. I said the ship was departed from Turkey. Now you are saying that ship itself was given by Turkey only contributes to the fact. And the fact is Turkey has its own share in this incident.
I wish you would show the same fake amazement for the safety of these people. Show me just one example of Turkish Authorities at least warned these people against possibility of this incident. No, I guarantee that you cannot. Quite opposite, government sent them into fire in order to benefit from the exactly the same argument you are shouting now: "Israel killed civilians". All right...
I already said I have no doubts about the genuine intention of these people. Yet international humanitarian aids are normally regulated or arranged by international bodies such as States or International Organisations for a good reason. This incident only proved the sensible logic behind this reason: To make sure that aid reaches its destination without causing more catastrophe.
Stop repeating the deceiving arguments of your populist and ignorant officials and speak of your own logic and knowledge: Simple task for you: I want to hear which sections of International Law is violated. Here is the major frame of the international law of sea under the United Nation, just put your finger on any article that you think it would fit this incident:
http://www.un.org/Depts/los/convention_agreements/texts/unclos/part7.htm
Feel free to spot and claim which article is violated. The intervention is committed within the Continental Shelf area of Israel, not in the High Seas. Moreover, Turkey tried to be cleaver and did not sign International Continental Shelf agreement in order not to become a legal party against Greece in Aegean Sea dispute. Now, how on earth Turkey will claim legal rights? No it will not. Even if it does, Israel will prove its International Rights:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_on_the_Continental_Shelf
EDIT: Another information on this: Turkey does not have any legal ground to apply for anything at all: The ship is registered to the country called Comoros (Union of the Comoros). The ship "officially" belongs to Turks and I bet Comoros have neither enough resources nor any interest to buy this ship. The ship is definitely registered to this country in order to cover up any possible diplomatic headache. Clever, isn't it:
http://www.marinetraffic.com/ais/tr/shipdetails.aspx?mmsi=616952000&header=true
Just keep believing in this "Muslim country" drama; another election material for the ruling party.
Total deception and big lie. Turkey had been enjoying full cooperation with Israel and even military level and all this fuss started last year. Evidence:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8301321.stm
Wrong. I just said it in my previous post. Reminder:
See, I am perfectly able to say what Israel is and what Israel is doing. But you are not capable of admitting the other half of the full story.
Why does evidence and the incident fully support my "fabrication"? How is Turkey not "partly" responsible from this bloodshed?
And I finally remind you this extract from your bullshit:
Since you take it personal, your next move will probably be accusing me as "being against Turks". You are barking at a wrong tree my friend. Do your home work first before you even try to defend Turkish Government.
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