Why So Many Great Flood Traditions?

[wellwisher]

A little while ago you were arguing, with Photizo, that the similarity of all the Flood stories argued for a common inspirational event. At that time the non-fundies (the religious theist, the areligious theist, the religious atheist, and the areligious atheist, all together) pointed out to you that Flood stories worldwide have little in common besides a Flood and ensuing hardship.

In modern climate change mythologies, all the weather events we see world wide, are being attributed to manmade impact. The two myths of the great flood and the man made climate change, have the same thing in common, in that man upsets the natural balance, requiring the god/earth to create exaggerated events that are deadly until balance is restored.

In modern times, we one might attribute this change to natural events all places on earth. But then, as now, man is held responsible for this impending global scale catastrophe, because man went unnatural with respect the earth and aroused the wrath of the gods/earth.

The only real difference between these two mythologies is who is the bad guy. The great flood stories choose the righteous by God as the innocent. Now, it is the atheists and liberals who are innocent in their mythology, because they have repented of carbon emissions. The evil bible toter religion who are conservative=republican=business are the evil ones that will be purged by man if they don't repent. There is a competition for religious devotion.

This mythology will not last for thousands of years unless the predictions come true. Then it will be a teaching moment.

 

[iceaura]

n modern climate change mythologies, all the weather events we see world wide, are being attributed to manmade impact.

That is not true.

The two myths of the great flood and the man made climate change, have the same thing in common, in that man upsets the natural balance, requiring the god/earth to create exaggerated events that are deadly until balance is restored.

That is not true either - the mythical Flood of the Bible (in practice you ignore all other Flood stories) was not caused by man's upsetting of a natural balance, but by man's angering of a Deity. The Deity upset the natural balance, to kill all the people except Noah and his kids. The Deity was in no sense "required" to do anything - the Flood was God's free will.

And the climate change researchers are not pointing to "exaggerated events" that will disappear once balance is restored. They are pointing to the inevitability of some small, long-term changes in the climate that humans will find significant. These changes are not free will decisions by anyone, but physical effects of physical causes. There will be a new balance, not a restoration, and no belief in anything will exempt anyone from living with it.

 

[Waiter_2001]

I believe in a great flood: that when the oceans formed. Earth is covered with water (have you seen the satellite imagery on the weather forecast?) and there is more water than Earth. That's because it rained constantly for forty days and forty nights and now we have the seas. What is more incredible than that though is how the stories survived! Humanity must have existed during the flooding else how else would the stories survive?

"No survivors eh? Then I wonder where the stories come from."
Jack Sparrow-Pirates of the Carribbean

 

[sideshowbob]

Humanity must have existed during the flooding else how else would the stories survive?

Have you read the thread at all? Multiple stories of flooding do not imply one giant flood any more than multiple stories of hunting imply one giant hunt.

 

[Dywyddyr]

and there is more water than Earth

No there isn't.
(Hint there's lots more Earth under that water - water is only 0.02% of the total mass).

That's because it rained constantly for forty days and forty nights and now we have the seas.

No.

 

[wellwisher]

A common element in all great flood mythologies is the great flood happens because humans get corrupt and perverted and main god of the culture punishes them. The nature of the corruption and/or perversion is different in various myths, but the punishment is the same. There is a purging because the genie of unnatural is out of the bottle, and it won't go back in because of will power and choice. The Aborigine have mean children bullying a sacred owl. Noah has the adults being over the top. This unnatural behavior upsets the balance requiring a major purge to restore order. What remains is mostly animals implicit of nature restored.

The modern mythology of man-made global warming uses the same basic myth schema, which is smart in terms of propaganda value. Sometimes recording a classic number one song, again, allows it to become number one again.

In the modern version, man is upsetting a natural balance with flooding part of the anticipated events; melting ice and large superstorms. The original great flood associates the imbalance with human behavior that is no longer natural. The global warming myth only gets upset about a specific unnatural behavior; industry, but allows other unnatural behavior to slide since perversion will not make extra CO2.

In the modern myth, the liberals play the role of Noah, who is chosen, and the conservatives become the corrupted who bring on the disaster. The modern myth is slightly different, because it has Noah working to change others rather than preparing for the change like in the case of Noah. Building the ark was a full time job. There appears to be a Sodom and Gomorrah overlap, where Lot tries to save the city from destruction, but when things don't change he gets away from the city of doom.

Here is a prediction. If the Republicans win Washington this and next year, then Lot will become Noah again, and the liberals will start to prepare for their great flood. The modern myth is not over yet. Although it uses sound bytes from other myths, to spice it up, this new recording of the old song will get back to the chorus.

This shows the power of mythology and how it can motivate generations, making the event part of history.

 

[Magical Realist]

A common element in all great flood mythologies is the great flood happens because humans get corrupt and perverted and main god of the culture punishes them. The nature of the corruption and/or perversion is different in various myths, but the punishment is the same. There is a purging because the genie of unnatural is out of the bottle, and it won't go back in because of will power and choice. The Aborigine have mean children bullying a sacred owl. Noah has the adults being over the top. This unnatural behavior upsets the balance requiring a major purge to restore order. What remains is mostly animals implicit of nature restored.

This is a common myth behind all natural catastrophes. Earthquakes, storms, volcanic eruptions, plagues and floods. The religious always trying to make sense of these disasters by blaming them on sinners. It's a symptom of the weakmindedness of religion, of it's inherent need to inspire hatred and division among the people, that it has to scapegoat certain classes of people and their lifestyles for events they had absolutely nothing to do with.

Nowadays thanks to science we know that the amount or type of sexual activity that is prevalent in a city does not increase it's risk for a major disaster in the least. But as long as we have religious kooks around like Pat Robertson and John Hagee and you we will still hear the pathetic petulant claims that it is all punishment for the sins of the people. Hurricane Katrina was blamed on the gays in New Orleans. And the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah was blamed on the gays. Some things never change, religion always pompously adding insult to injury after every major catastrophe.

http://www.salon.com/2012/10/30/fear_the_almighty_wrath_five_natural_disasters_caused_by_gays/

 

[KitemanSA]

This is a common myth behind all natural catastrophes. Earthquakes, storms, volcanic eruptions, plagues and floods. The religious always trying to make sense of these disasters by blaming them on sinners.

The common thread of all religions for explaining natural disasters is "Its YOUR fault for not doing what I said.

 

[sculptor]

This is a common myth behind all natural catastrophes. Earthquakes, storms, volcanic eruptions, plagues and floods. The religious always trying to make sense of these disasters by blaming them on sinners. It's a symptom of the weakmindedness of religion, of it's inherent need to inspire hatred and division among the people, that it has to scapegoat certain classes of people and their lifestyles for events they had absolutely nothing to do with.

Not just religious ghouls, preying on the victims of any disaster to sell their agenda. It's a dark part of human nature.
Any disaster brings out the ghouls who would feast upon the rotting flesh of the victims, whether it be fire, earthquake, mass shootings, bombings, 911 or floods to further their agendas.

.................
old joke:
How many teamsters does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
answer: 30!,,,,,,You got a problem with that?!

Why did it flood?
God did it because you sinned,,,,, You got a problem with that?!

 

[Magical Realist]

Not just religious ghouls, preying on the victims of any disaster to sell their agenda. It's a dark part of human nature.

No it isn't human nature to scapegoat innocent people for natural disasters. It's religious nature and its whole delusion of certain people being sinners who deserve punishment from God. That springs entirely from religion and it's need to capitalize on suffering and tragedy to get people to listen to it.

 

[Syzygys]

Some historians suggest that the flood cited in the Bible

That wasn't the OP's question. The answer to that is rather simple:

1. Early civilization tended to be located next to water, specially rivers.

2. Flooding is universal and happens to be the most devastating out of such natural catastrophies.

3. So obviously almost all early civilization had at least one great such an occurance with its obligatory myth...

 

[Amar Nath Reu]

Multiple stories of flooding do not imply one giant flood any more than multiple stories of hunting imply one giant hunt.

Perhaps it was one great flood and the story was picked up by various cultures. But whether it was flooding with water, is doubtful. Avesta mentions a flood by snow when the vales, meadows and even the mountain tops were covered with ice. As instructed by Ahur Mazda, Yima, the king of men, prepared an enclosure and kept two of each who survived. Perhaps if is a remembrance of the last glacial maximum some 18,000 years ago. Syzygys, the story hardly changes from one culture to another.

 

[cornel]

The modern mythology

Mythology isn't about new things, the stories have to stay around longer than a few puny decennia to be called myths.

No it isn't human nature to scapegoat innocent people for natural disasters. It's religious nature

Are you claiming religions aren't part of human nature ? xD

 

[sideshowbob]

Perhaps it was one great flood and the story was picked up by various cultures.

But why would you draw that conclusion? We know there are floods all over the world, so almost every culture will have flood stories. Why would you extrapolate that to one big flood? You don't extrapolate all wind damage to one big wind, do you? You don't extrapolate all of the dead in a cemetery to one big plague, do you? Why is "the Flood" a special case in which you form a very unlikely conclusion?

 

[Aqueous Id]

This is a common myth behind all natural catastrophes. Earthquakes, storms, volcanic eruptions, plagues and floods. The religious always trying to make sense of these disasters by blaming them on sinners. It's a symptom of the weakmindedness of religion, of it's inherent need to inspire hatred and division among the people, that it has to scapegoat certain classes of people and their lifestyles for events they had absolutely nothing to do with.

Nowadays thanks to science we know that the amount or type of sexual activity that is prevalent in a city does not increase it's risk for a major disaster in the least. But as long as we have religious kooks around like Pat Robertson and John Hagee and you we will still hear the pathetic petulant claims that it is all punishment for the sins of the people. Hurricane Katrina was blamed on the gays in New Orleans. And the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah was blamed on the gays. Some things never change, religion always pompously adding insult to injury after every major catastrophe.

http://www.salon.com/2012/10/30/fear_the_almighty_wrath_five_natural_disasters_caused_by_gays/

Indeed that cult and its leaders exploit every kind of phobia, not the least of which is homophobia, to rally the sheep around a common feeling of fear and loathing of imaginary threats and an exaggerated sense of propriety, of boundaries, and a repressed sense of anger over rejection that plagues mean and stupid people. In this regard they remind me of the disgruntled German war veterans that Hitler learned to manipulate when he first started wiring them up in the beer joints.

But what makes this supremely idiotic is that the JudeoChristian flood myth is an adaptation from the Gilgamesh epic. And there the gods decided to wipe people out simply because they were eliciting divine help too often -- like needy kids who never cut the cord. It never had anything to do with ethics or promiscuity at all!

It's the worst kind of stupidity -- the kind rooted in deliberate ignorance -- that makes this adaptation such a rigid world view, but all dressed up as sanctimonius "righteousness" without any clue that it's nothing more than the glorification of ignorance.

 

[sculptor]

Then again, we do have significant evidence of pulsed holocene rapid sea level rise that would have flooded coastal and estuary civilizations all over the globe.

 

[rcscwc]

Floods are as old as our mother earth. Perhaps in far past there severe floods quite frequently. Anyway One flood has to be very, very severe, but not globally. So local very, very severe floods would leave some impressions on the collective psyche.

In context of large dams, hydrologists try to estimate what is called a Probable Maximum Flood. It is IF the whole of the water in air column is precipitated in a pattern of critical sequence of storm. Whole of water CANNOT fall instantaneously. This PMF would be very, very rare and hence very, very severe too.

 

[Prophet(PBUH))]

​

Another question is: are there any other such pervasive, widespread legends? I wish to disclude creation myths (that's right, I said 'myths') as an answer because a) while they may be nearly universal and often told, unlike GFTs they vary greatly and may have nothing in common with one another, b) they are out of the scope of this discussion and c) in case you haven't understood yet, the topic is not religious myths, but why there are so many GFTs. And why should there be if there is not some kernel of truth at their core?

*definitions from Dictionary.com

They are found in even culture that has maintained some kind of spoken or written record because it happened. I say it happened because we all know from the geological record it did, the only debate about it is when and was man here and I say debate because anything that doesn't have a recorded eyewitness to it is purely conjecture and theory. To some however theory ,to know it all Atheist( I say know it all's because to be atheist is to claim you have looked every where for God and found he didn't exist so you claim to know all) is out weighted because of their ignorance of the biblical history .

I comment on this thread for a couple reasons as my first post here.

One to point out most who think think they know the story of Noah and this goes for many a Sunday school teachers have it wrong and flat out miss what happened as recorded in the scripture, they just are clueless to what they are reading even though it could not possible be more black and white.

Two most whom consider themselves intellectuals when discussing theory's vers Biblical writings and interpretation fail in being persuasive because they have not a clue to whats in the Bible at all and frankly if they were intellectually honest they would bow out of any religious debate because on the one side of the discussion all they know is a theory that is still a theory 150 years later and why is it a theory, because one it can not be demonstrated 2 modern science goes against them from archaeology to biology. While anyone can be book smart, as well find their mind captured by concepts in the idea of cellular structure the reality is not one single concept theory or idea of duplicating the process can be done even today will everything at their disposal. Gene manipulation, is not constructing a cell wall. The point being Atheist have no understanding in a God conversation because they simply know not what the biblical recorded is. Insults and accusation no direct knowledge .

Finally back to the flood to fully understand Genesis 6 one needs to start at the beginning and not proceed from one verse to another until they have a full understanding of what they red. Once a person does that and puts things in to context to the rest of Biblical history particularity Joshua and as a world where we are today it will certainly open their eyes to the context of the scripture. Oh one other thing the oldest version of the scripture known is the septuagint a simple Greek word that means 70 but to biblical scholars means the first ever effort to translating from Hebrew to Greek as demanded by the Jews in 300's BC. As the Jews of that time and Jesus's time did not speak Hebrew they spoke mostly Greek other then Rabbi's. And as for theologians from the faith they have brought more problems and frankly archaeology has continued to prove them wrong, most recent example theologians in both the Catholic and Protestant faith promulgated the belief that many books were not written by said author but many years after their death Daniel being one most targeted until of course the tablet stones uncovered these last 20 years found at the gates of the ancient cities of Babylon dating back some 2800 years to the time of Daniel word for word. Daniel 6 it would appear was a favorite of King Neberkenezer.


When I was a child of Atheist I believed as a child believes, when I became a young man I believed by faith, as I became old, wise and learned I came to know the truth and now wonder if I was not better off with just faith.

 

[Dywyddyr]

Tbecause we all know from the geological record it did

This would be a false claim.

( I say know it all's because to be atheist is to claim you have looked every where for God and found he didn't exist so you claim to know all)

This too is false.
Atheism is a lack of belief (generally) not a specific claim that we know god doesn't exist.

Two most whom consider themselves intellectuals when discussing theory's vers Biblical writings and interpretation fail in being persuasive because they have not a clue to whats in the Bible at all and frankly if they were intellectually honest they would bow out of any religious debate because on the one side of the discussion all they know is a theory that is still a theory 150 years later and why is it a theory, because one it can not be demonstrated 2 modern science goes against them from archaeology to biology.

For someone to complain about "those who consider themselves intellectuals" and entirely misunderstand the word "theory" in a scientific context the way you're doing is remarkably hypocritical.

When I was a child of Atheist I believed as a child believes, when I became a young man I believed by faith, as I became old, wise and learned I came to know the truth and now wonder if I was not better off with just faith.

Except that this another false claim. You don't "know the truth", you just believe you do.

 

[Prophet(PBUH))]

Then again, we do have significant evidence of pulsed holocene rapid sea level rise that would have flooded coastal and estuary civilizations all over the globe.

I wonder when you look at the evidence of this flood how catastrophic it was and the near instant changes it made. Consider what would have had to happen for the Great mammoths, mastodons to freeze so quickly and remain so until this last century that the tropical vegetation to freeze int heir mouths the food in their stomachs undigested, the meat when thawed was eatable and this all occurred within the arctic circle. Just what kind of atmosphere must have existed for such temperate condition at such a location? What changed and did so rapidly?

Arron Schawtz not someone i agree with on everything but I certainly admired his mind as well shared a belief and that is question everything. So much we over look because we allow our minds to run on cruse control believing we already know over looking the most telling things.