Why is it that of all the representatives of the animal world, speech has developed only in humans?

[ольга]

I still don't follow how you think that connectedness eliminates free will.

I'm connected to the balls on the table because I can see them. How does mean I don't have a choice about which one I pick, or if I pick one at all, or instead flip the table?

You have not addressed this question.

Дэйв, я об этом много думаю. Вы же физик, ну подумайте сами: какая свобода может быть у физического тела? Есть миллионы или миллиарды причин и следствий, о которых вы даже и не задумываетесь. Они и определяют дальнейшее движение тела. А как может быть иначе?

 

[ольга]

The human body is not a wooden puppet that requires an external manipulator to produce its movements, speech, intelligence, and decisions. It is autonomous for all reasonable purposes.

Just stop being an incompatibilist, or accepting that kind of requirement for free will. Why in the world would you want to behave randomly (devoid of internal regulation), as a severely insane person does?

You want your somewhat predictable choices and inclinations, as long as they are not destroying your life or others. And if they are, accepting the concept of free will enables you to change them, whereas someone who regards themselves as fatalistically locked in their current programming will not do so.

And the extreme view of requiring control over all your own origins in order for there to be free will is incoherent. The idea that you could "have been someone or something else" or that you could "have been an alternative version of yourself with different memories and routines" -- neither of those is possible. Since you would thereby cease to exist physically or psychologically (respectively) if you were someone other than who you are. You can't choose to be replaced before you exist, and if you could replace yourself afterwards you simply cease to exist. Someone else (either physically or psychologically) can't be you, since that entails different individuals.

That kind of metaphysical requirement -- in order for free will to be applicable -- is likewise designed to be dead the instant it leaves the starting gate.
_

Я как то подумала: а возможно ли вернуться в прошлое и поступить в какой либо ситуации по другому? И поняла, что если это возможно, то вы об этом даже не узнаете.

 

[ольга]

The human body is not a wooden puppet that requires an external manipulator to produce its movements, speech, intelligence, and decisions. It is autonomous for all reasonable purposes.

Just stop being an incompatibilist, or accepting that kind of requirement for free will. Why in the world would you want to behave randomly (devoid of internal regulation), as a severely insane person does?

You want your somewhat predictable choices and inclinations, as long as they are not destroying your life or others. And if they are, accepting the concept of free will enables you to change them, whereas someone who regards themselves as fatalistically locked in their current programming will not do so.

And the extreme view of requiring control over all your own origins in order for there to be free will is incoherent. The idea that you could "have been someone or something else" or that you could "have been an alternative version of yourself with different memories and routines" -- neither of those is possible. Since you would thereby cease to exist physically or psychologically (respectively) if you were someone other than who you are. You can't choose to be replaced before you exist, and if you could replace yourself afterwards you simply cease to exist. Someone else (either physically or psychologically) can't be you, since that entails different individuals.

That kind of metaphysical requirement -- in order for free will to be applicable -- is likewise designed to be dead the instant it leaves the starting gate.
_

У меня нет цели быть непредсказуемой. Я просто хочу быть беспристрастной. И я не против свободы воли, я только за, но тогда нужно понять как это возможно, как это работает в физическом мире.

 

[DaveC426913]

Dave, I think about this a lot.

Yes. I'd say you're stuck in a loop. You need a fresh perspective.

You are a physicist, so think about it: what kind of freedom can a physical body have? There are millions or billions of causes and effects that you don’t even think about. They determine the further movement of the body.

You still have not addressed the question.

How do I not have the free will to choose any ball on the table?

How could it be otherwise?

Never mind that. That is an argument from incredulity. It's not valid.

I want you to defend this idea that I am unable to make choices. Tell me how, today, I chose the blue ball, but tomorrow I am forced choose the green ball, or flip the table, but you say it's not because I feel like it?

Those are choices. Just because I had a dream last night that had a 'blue' theme, and that influencd my choice - that does not mean I had no choice.

So you need to explain why you think I am forced to choose the blue ball tomorrow instead of any other choice.

 

[C C]

How did I think: is it possible to go back in time and get into any situation differently? And I realized that if it is possible, then you will not even know about it.

Quite right there, at least in the context of a particular philosophy of time view. If your cognition of distinct events reversed direction temporarily (no longer oriented toward the future), then when it switched back to "normal" you would not express awareness of the anomaly having transpired. Anymore than characters in a movie remark about events being "rewinded" after the return to "play".

• H.G. Wells: “Clearly,” the Time Traveller proceeded, “any real body must have extension in four directions: it must have Length, Breadth, Thickness, and—Duration. But through a natural infirmity of the flesh, which I will explain to you in a moment, we incline to overlook this fact.
  
  There are really four dimensions, three which we call the three planes of Space, and a fourth, Time. There is, however, a tendency to draw an unreal distinction between the former three dimensions and the latter, because it happens that our consciousness moves intermittently in one direction along the latter from the beginning to the end of our lives."
  
  Paul Halpern: Other late-19th-century mathematicians began to imagine the fourth dimension as something far more familiar: the passage of time. The pages of "Nature" and other scientific journals featured speculations about a four-dimensional amalgam of the three-dimensions of space along with an additional dimension of time.
  
  These notions eventually received a concrete mathematical treatment in Einstein’s general theory of relativity, which enabled physicists to reclaim higher dimensions from the spiritualists. Long before then, though, they left their own imprint on popular culture.
  
  H G Wells took note of the idea of a temporal fourth dimension when setting the stage for the Time Traveller’s journey in his novella The Time Machine (1895)... -- The Occcult Roots of Higher Dimensional Research in Physics

 

[ольга]

Yes. I'd say you're stuck in a loop. You need a fresh perspective.


You still have not addressed the question.

How do I not have the free will to choose any ball on the table?



Never mind that. That is an argument from incredulity. It's not valid.

I want you to defend this idea that I am unable to make choices. Tell me how, today, I chose the blue ball, but tomorrow I am forced choose the green ball, or flip the table, but you say it's not because I feel like it?

Those are choices. Just because I had a dream last night that had a 'blue' theme, and that influencd my choice - that does not mean I had no choice.

So you need to explain why you think I am forced to choose the blue ball tomorrow instead of any other choice.

Ну тогда, раз вы не принимаете доводы логики, вам в помощь 2 всем известных эксперимента : эксперимент Джона-Дилана Хайнеса, и эксперимент Бенджамина Либета.

 

[DaveC426913]

Well then, since you do not accept the arguments of logic,

I do not accept your logic. You make too many leaps to get to your conclusions.

two well-known experiments will help you: the John-Dylan Haynes experiment, and the Benjamin Libet experiment.

Was there some point you wanted to make about these experiments? Do you think they somehow bolster your case about souls instead of brain?

You'll have to spell that out. As I just mentioned, you make too many leaps to get to your conclusions. This is also known as "handwaving".


The experiments certainly suggest there are lots of things going on in the brain that do not rise to the level of consciousness - but no one was saying otherwise. Contrarily, they sure don't point to anything supernatural.

 

[ольга]

I do not accept your logic. You make too many leaps to get to your conclusions.


References?

Was there some point you wanted to make about these experiments? Why you think they make your case about souls instead of brains?

Они доказывают то, что мозг, т.е. физический объект, производит действие ещё до того, как вы его осознали. Так кто же этот Я, принимающий решения?

 

[DaveC426913]

I have edited post 107.

They prove that the brain, i.e. the physical object, produces the action even before you are aware of it.

So? The brain is much more than its consciousness. What has that got to do with souls?

So who is this I that makes decisions?

Still: my brain. Just not only my conscious brain.

 

[ольга]

I have edited post 107.


So? The brain is much more than its consciousness. What has that got to do with souls?

Still: my brain. Just not only my conscious brain.

Дэйв, а разве свободный выбор не подразумевает осознанности? Если действие производит ваше тело ещё до того, как вы это действие осознали, то где же тут свободный выбор? Просто сработали бессознательные механизмы, такие же, как и у дерева.

 

[ольга]

Quite right there, at least in the context of a particular philosophy of time view. If your cognition of distinct events reversed direction temporarily (no longer oriented toward the future), then when it switched back to "normal" you would not express awareness of the anomaly having transpired. Anymore than characters in a movie remark about events being "rewinded" after the return to "play".

• H.G. Wells: “Clearly,” the Time Traveller proceeded, “any real body must have extension in four directions: it must have Length, Breadth, Thickness, and—Duration. But through a natural infirmity of the flesh, which I will explain to you in a moment, we incline to overlook this fact.
  
  There are really four dimensions, three which we call the three planes of Space, and a fourth, Time. There is, however, a tendency to draw an unreal distinction between the former three dimensions and the latter, because it happens that our consciousness moves intermittently in one direction along the latter from the beginning to the end of our lives."
  
  Paul Halpern: Other late-19th-century mathematicians began to imagine the fourth dimension as something far more familiar: the passage of time. The pages of "Nature" and other scientific journals featured speculations about a four-dimensional amalgam of the three-dimensions of space along with an additional dimension of time.
  
  These notions eventually received a concrete mathematical treatment in Einstein’s general theory of relativity, which enabled physicists to reclaim higher dimensions from the spiritualists. Long before then, though, they left their own imprint on popular culture.
  
  H G Wells took note of the idea of a temporal fourth dimension when setting the stage for the Time Traveller’s journey in his novella The Time Machine (1895)... -- The Occcult Roots of Higher Dimensional Research in Physics

Время. Без него не было бы нашей Вселенной. Оно не то, что о нём думают. Измерение? Что такое измерение?