Why is it that of all the representatives of the animal world, speech has developed only in humans?

Free will is provided for by religions, which have immaterial entities that are different from the material world and do not obey its laws.
Oh. So: magic.


Just a few posts ago, you said:
Your inner feelings do not prove anything, it is not scientific evidence.
Would you care to explain to the rest of the class how - when I describe my feelings (which are emergent from my experimentally-verified physical brain, in my experimentally-verified chemistry-driven body)

you tell me "feelings are not scientific evidence",

but when asked for your alternative

your solution is "immaterial entities" which "do not obey the laws of the material world"?


You are caught in the logical fallacy known as"special pleading". God arguments are almost always built on this fallacy.
 
Oh. So: magic.


Just a few posts ago, you said:

Would you care to explain to the rest of the class how - when I describe my feelings (which are emergent from my experimentally-verified physical brain, in my experimentally-verified chemistry-driven body)

you tell me "feelings are not scientific evidence",

but when asked for your alternative

your solution is "immaterial entities" which "do not obey the laws of the material world"?


You are caught in the logical fallacy known as"special pleading". God arguments are almost always built on this fallacy.
Дэйв, так это я Вас поймала в эту ловушку. Разве Вы не заметили иронии? Мне, как верующей, позволено говорить о нематериальных сущностях, а для Вас, как атеиста, это табу. Но Вы о них говорите.
 
Now try, using your own willpower, to walk through a wall, or jump and reach Jupiter.
Seriously? I translated from Russian to English for this? What does not being able to walk through walls have to do with free will? Nonsense!
 
Dave, I'm the one who caught you in this trap. Didn't you notice the irony? As a believer, I'm allowed to talk about immaterial entities, but as an atheist, it's taboo for you. But you talk about them.
No. You are the one who tried to rule out feelings by saying there's no scientific evidence.
I am not trying to play two sides of the coin; you are.
If you're going to invoke immaterial entities, you'll have to hold yourself to that same standard: show us this scientific evidence of your immaterial entity, or it is disqualified - by your own say so - from this discussion.


Besides, it's not true. There's plenty of evidence that my actions are initiated from within my physical form in general, and my brain in particular.
If you want to argue that my actions are controlled by something other than my thinking brain (which objectively exists and is irrefutably ythe source of my actions) the onus is on you to provide that mechanism. And since you're demanding scientific evidence, I'll be expecting some description of a mechanism by which a red ball sitting on a table can make me choose it.

The evidence is in my favour. As always, your belief in immaterial causes is disqualified by your own insistence on scientific evidence.


But again, it still comes down to what you think the term "free will" means. You seem think it must mean the ability to defy the laws of nature. I don't see why. I have as many choices as there permutations of balls on the table. As well as many other choices - like taking a nap, leaving the room, flipping the table or assaulting the researcher. Where in there do you think I don't have free will? I think I need to have that question answered in a way that clarifies why I don't have choice.


It's almost like you think the only definition of "free will" is an action that has no initiating cause - truly random - like the decay of a proton. That seems like the opposite of free will to me, because there are zero choices.
 
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Seriously? I translated from Russian to English for this? What does not being able to walk through walls have to do with free will? Nonsense!
О'кей, не нравится проходить сквозь стены, придумайте что-нибудь, что вы можете сделать по собственной воле. Сможете?
 
Дэйв, так это я Вас поймала в эту ловушку. Разве Вы не заметили иронии? Мне, как верующей, позволено говорить о нематериальных сущностях, а для Вас, как атеиста, это табу. Но Вы о них говорите.
You are in the "Human Science" stick to the topic. If you want to talk god, philosophy start a new thread.
 
No. You are the one who tried to rule out feelings by saying there's no scientific evidence.
I am not trying to play two sides of the coin; you are.
If you're going to invoke immaterial entities, you'll have to hold yourself to that same standard: show us this scientific evidence of your immaterial entity, or it is disqualified - by your own say so - from this discussion.


Besides, it's not true. There's plenty of evidence that my actions are initiated from within my physical form in general, and my brain in particular.
If you want to argue that my actions are controlled by something other than my thinking brain (which objectively exists and is irrefutably ythe source of my actions) the onus is on you to provide that mechanism. And since you're demanding scientific evidence, I'll be expecting some description of a mechanism by which a red ball sitting on a table can make me choose it.

The evidence is in my favour. As always, your belief in immaterial causes is disqualified by your own insistence on scientific evidence.


But again, it still comes down to what you think the term "free will" means. You seem think it must mean the ability to defy the laws of nature. I don't see why. I have as many choices as there permutations of balls on the table. As well as many other choices - like taking a nap, leaving the room, flipping the table or assaulting the researcher. Where in there do you think I don't have free will? I think I need to have that question answered in a way that clarifies why I don't have choice.


It's almost like you think the only definition of "free will" is an action that has no initiating cause - truly random - like the decay of a proton. That seems like the opposite of free will to me, because there are zero choices.
Ну, О'кей, давайте будем доказывать последовательно по пунктам, с точки зрения материализма.
1. Вы не отрицаете, что являетесь физическим детерменированным объектом, и что вы подчиняетесь причинно-следственным связям?
 
You are in the "Human Science" stick to the topic. If you want to talk god, philosophy start a new thread.
Нет, Пинбол(это ваше настоящее имя?), мы сейчас будем доказывать детерменированность мышления.
 
Нет, Пинбол(это ваше настоящее имя?), мы сейчас будем доказывать детерменированность мышления.
I think Free will, determinism, thought is another thread.
Are we done with speech?
 
Well, okay, let's prove it point by point, from the point of view of materialism.
1. Do you deny that you are a physical deterministic object and that you are subject to cause and effect relationships?
Where did I admit to being deterministic?
 
Думаете, развитие речи у человека не связано с мышлением?
Of course it is. What it is not connected to is telepathy, god, ghosts, walking through walls and jumping to Jupiter.
This is a science thread, please stick to the science, Human science of speech.
 
I do not deny that, no.

I assume you also do not deny that you are a material object. (Else, how are you typing?)

I do not deny that, no.

I assume you also do not deny that you are a material object. (Else, how are you typing?)
Если вы не отрицаете, что являетесь материальным объектом, то вы также не будете отрицать, что все материальные объекты детерминированы?

Я и не утверждала, что являюсь только бесплотным Духом, по крайней мере пока живая.
 
ольга: Pinball has a point.

It's a fine discussion, but we are way off-topic - and the science rules are going to trip you up at some point. You should probably take this thread up in the Philosophy forum.
Вообще то речь и религия тесно связано, как это не покажется странным. Библия начинается с "в начале было Слово, и Слово было у Бога, Слово было о Боге, Слово было Бог".
 
Actually, speech and religion are closely connected, as strange as it may seem. The Bible begins with "in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, the Word was about God, the Word was God."
As you wish. Since this is the Human Sciences forum, we'll be expecting you to provide scientific evidence for your immaterial entities, and demonstrate mechanisms for their operation.
 
How does that follow?
Следует - что? То, что все детерменированные объекты подчинены причинно-следственным связям? Т.е. любому следствию предшествует причина?
 
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