What do girls want?

[billvon]

My definiton of incel is this.
In-voluntary, cel-ibate.

Nope. I've been celibate for times in my life when I would have preferred to have sex; I've never been an incel.

Necrophilia not required to fulfill the definition.

Agreed. It is just something incels discuss.

Decent are they? Well I guess that excludes them from being good.

Nope. Decency and "being good" are not opposites.

Nice you chose the word "aggressive" for that. So if you want to find love it means you are doing some kind of negative act.

Nope. You don't have to do that. (I never have.)

And the fact women don't actively seek love, means they are less "aggressive", implying that promoting love is some kind of negative act.

Again, no. Aggression (or the lack thereof) is not inherently good or bad. Aggression to get your diploma, or come in first in a triathalon, or to protect those you love, are good things; aggression to commit crimes is a bad thing. Context matters.

Maybe so, but if I keep to myself then what women would approach me?

None. But since you think most people are boring and you don't want such people, then you are better off with no women approaching you.

If they approached me it would be "aggressive", which women ought not to be.

You have some very, very strange ideas about what women "ought" to be. It is good most people don't think like you.

Its more so my claims about human pathology. Kind of like how women feel hatred and disgust when a random man they dont approve of flirts with them.

So in other words, they are just like you.

If I see a woman I lust for, I am shamed and told I ought to have a relationship with her or else I am an evil sexist and a bad person.

Nope. No one will shame you for lusting after someone. Of course, if you are a dick about it, or you stalk her, or you start obsessing over her in public, then you will rightly be labeled a bad person.

Meanwhile, if I do fall in love with a woman I can relate to, I am usually called a creep and told I ought not to fall in love with a person like that.

Again, no one will tell you that if you're not a creep. However, if you treat women like you suggest you do on this forum, then they would be right in calling you a creep.

Meanwhile, females can love and lust to their hearts content, and get shining praise from the audience.

Who is this "audience" whose praise you so desperately crave?

You are taking fringe anecdotes to prove a point. Nope.

You could not conceive how a woman could be attracted to an old guy and a healthy, vibrant guy at the same time. I gave you an example of how that can indeed happen.

Immature women are not in the minority, at least not in America. Maybe in other countries it is so.

Immature women are not in the minority in the group of women you know, perhaps.

 

[gamelord]

Nope. I've been celibate for times in my life when I would have preferred to have sex; I've never been an incel.

Incel is characterized by persistent difficulties and frustrations in the dating department. How to quantify it is when you start to lose faith in the fairness of humanity.

Agreed. It is just something incels discuss.

I could say that crime and watermelon is just something blacks discuss, but that would be racist, lumping everyone into one group, the same as what you are doing with incels.

Nope. Decency and "being good" are not opposites.

Not opposites on the spectrum. But on the spectrum, decency is not as high on the spectrum as good is.

Nope. You don't have to do that. (I never have.)

Sadly I do, because women rarely approach, and the women who do approach have no intention of any real relationship or even real sex for that matter. So I have no choice but to either approach, or be forever alone.

Again, no. Aggression (or the lack thereof) is not inherently good or bad. Aggression to get your diploma, or come in first in a triathalon, or to protect those you love, are good things; aggression to commit crimes is a bad thing. Context matters.

Okay, my apologies, I suppose I read you wrong.

None. But since you think most people are boring and you don't want such people, then you are better off with no women approaching you.

Your logic self-contradicts, why would I would be better off with the category "none" when I did not say "all", I said most, obviously there are 2 occurences which would contradict your statement, that is the occasional woman who is interesting, or the boring, yet attractive woman who just wanted casual sex.

You have some very, very strange ideas about what women "ought" to be. It is good most people don't think like you.

My statement was a sarcasm, based on my incorrect interpretation of your use of the word aggression.

So in other words, they are just like you.

Yes this is my point exactly, and yet most Americans are delusional and will not accept this point. They will not accept that American women are no different than males, and thus males are no different than women. And that the whole dating world is founded on lies and fabrications of how dating ought to be.

Nope. No one will shame you for lusting after someone. Of course, if you are a dick about it, or you stalk her, or you start obsessing over her in public, then you will rightly be labeled a bad person.

Incorrect, feminists will shame me, even for looking at cartoon porn, and even for wanting a female sex robot, such a thing they call evil objectification of women.

Again, no one will tell you that if you're not a creep. However, if you treat women like you suggest you do on this forum, then they would be right in calling you a creep.

I never discussed how I have treated women, here on this forum, at least not that I remember. I discussed my views on gender norms and society. But yes fine call me a creep, historically it is always the same, in the past everyone called males who wore women's clothes creeps, any male who disobeys gender norms is a "creep", same old same old, used to it at this point.

Who is this "audience" whose praise you so desperately crave?

The audience of america, who watches feminist empowerment on tv and internet, giving them showers of praise and calling anyone who stands up for the rights of males a creep.

You could not conceive how a woman could be attracted to an old guy and a healthy, vibrant guy at the same time. I gave you an example of how that can indeed happen.

It can happen, however the main issue is women seem to have some kind of obsession for old men and ignore young men. In fact the only women I ever saw on craigslist who offered free sex, demanded that the man be over 50. Any other man was forced to pay for sex.

Immature women are not in the minority in the group of women you know, perhaps.

Statistics seem to disagree, as 83% of america is religious and has naive political views akin to that of a small child. If it makes you feel better I view most American males as immature also, though if I had to put my foot down, I'd say that more american females are immature than american males, however the bar has been set so low that it isn't saying that much.

 

[Seattle]

Classic 1984 inversion of reality.

Old men, are less healthy than young. This is obvious to the sane.

In my eyes American women are generally immature, taking selfies, talking about memes, trends, posting their dinner photos and other childish nonsense on facebook.




Masturbation, porn is not real, not sexually satisfying.

And I am the relationship type, its just that most people bore me, and I dont want a boring relationship with someone who takes me to church and does boring things like talking about the weather all day for no good reason.

Yes, masturbation is not as satisfying as actual sex but if the claim is of a lonely, sexually frustrated person who is about to go off...masturbation is a choice.

There are plenty of people in your shoes for various reason. Older people with less choice, or a lot of older men aren't physically attracted to women of their age and younger women aren't attracted to them, or people who are divorced with kids and no free time.

The only difference with you, it seems, is that you feel that you are missing out because you really haven't had a long term relationship and the other difference is just that you are too passive to do anything about your situation.

Who is going to be interested in a passive male who wants to wear makeup and a dress and who lives with their parents? Blaming women in this case is ridiculous, don't you think?

 

[Seattle]

So you are sticking up for me again, I guess this makes us frenemies.

In any case, I still disagree with half of what you are saying.
Why is it that in society, women hate getting compliments from men? That it is viewed as so wrong for a man to have sexual attraction for a woman. Maybe it is a genetic thing, maybe women are inherently genetically hateful of men.


Yes because women propel and uphold the rigid gender norms of toxic masculinity, males are forced into a rigid corner and have to obey rigid macho ideals of appearance. Anyone who defies these ideals is cast out by society as an outsider. Christian women can wear suits and men's clothes, but if a man wears a dress then it is a sin against god.

I live in a part of the country that isn't particularly religious. Most guys don't have any interest in wearing a dress. Some guys are covered with tattoos, if they wanted they could certainly wear a dress.

You just seem to insist on taking a victim role in your arguments or viewpoints. Women don't wear a bikini to work. They wear whatever is seem as appropriate work wear. It just turns out that dresses aren't culturally appropriate work wear, mainly because guys aren't pushing for it to be.

Women used to wear only dresses to work, guys hit on them, looked at their legs, tried to look down their dress and so they started to wear something that looked more businesslike in a effort to be taken as an equal in the workplace.

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

American women seem to have some obsession with dating old men.

I think it has to do with money ...I dont get involved.
Alex

 

[Seattle]

American women seem to have some obsession with dating old men. I am both for and against this. I like the idea of men getting something for their troubles and time spent on this world. But I hate the idea that if you are young, women don't appreciate you. The other thing I hate is that it seems to be a kind of sexual dysfunction, like women are repulsed by men who are healthy and have vigor.

I'm all for it (young women dating old men) but it just doesn't happen enough.

You seem to have a problem with everything and somehow relate it back to you being a victim. Many women like to date a man a few years older than themselves. Some date guys a lot old, most do not.

How does this affect you? Either date someone a few years younger than you or choose among the majority that will date someone their own age.

This is the least of your problems wouldn't you agree?

 

[billvon]

Incel is characterized by persistent difficulties and frustrations in the dating department. How to quantify it is when you start to lose faith in the fairness of humanity.

It is also characterized by a deep-seated hatred of women and calls for violence against them. From the Southern Poverty Law Center:

=============
MALE SUPREMACY
Male supremacy is a hateful ideology advocating for the subjugation of women.

Male supremacy misrepresents all women as genetically inferior, manipulative and stupid and reduces them to their reproductive or sexual function — with sex being something that they owe men and that can or even should be coerced out of them. Driven by a biological analysis of women as fundamentally inferior to men, male supremacists malign women specifically for their gender. A thinly veiled desire for the domination of women and a conviction that the current system oppresses men in favor of women are the unifying tenets of the male supremacist worldview.

In their own words
“Pussy is the only real empowerment women will ever know."
— Paul Elam, An Ear for Men, Sex Robots: Part 3 - Disempowering Pussy, October 2017

“Make rape legal if done on private property.”
— Roosh V., “How to Stop Rape,” Return Of Kings, February 2015

“No means no — until it means yes.”
— Roosh V., 30 Bangs, March 2012

“No functioning, healthy society would allow Pulse—or the kinds of men who frequented it—to exist…. No healthy society would mourn their passing. "
— Matt Forney, “The Orlando Nightclub Shooting and the Moral Sickness of Whites,” Matt Forney blog, June 2017

Types of Male Supremacy

Male supremacy is an ideology with many faces. Its unifying thread is virulent, at times violent misogyny, and the practice of blaming women and a large feminist conspiracy for the ills of (mostly white) men today. Like other hate groups, male supremacist hate groups propagate conspiracies that see the world as a matriarchy propped up by “cultural Marxism” meant to eradicate or subjugate men. It is driven by the belief that men are entitled to a superior place in society than women, which are biologically and intellectually inferior — as a result, any advancement that women might have obtained is nothing more than a usurpation. Like white supremacy, male supremacy is driven by fear and anger at the loss of white male status.

There are different paths and constituencies in male supremacist movements: between men’s rights activists whose focus appears to be defending the rights of men, all the while decrying their infringement by women; Red Pillers, who claim to be the only ones aware of the existence of a feminist conspiracy running society; pick-up artists, whose goal is to lure women into sleeping with them, while constantly debasing them; involuntary celibates (or incels), who, having failed to find women either willing to have or to be coerced into sex, turn their anger into calls of violence; and men going their own way (MGTOW), who present themselves as male separatists and have chosen to remove themselves from the negative influence of women entirely.

. . . .

Men who felt deceived by these seduction methods but still felt entitled to sexual attention from women eventually gathered on the now defunct “anti-PUA” website PUAhate, or the still live Sluthate.com. They call themselves “involuntary celibates,” or incels.

The violence so omnipresent in PUA hate first made headlines in 2014: the website was frequented by Elliot Rodger, whose misogynistic, hate-filled rants, which he attributed to his rejection by women, eventually led him to murder six people and injure fourteen in Isla Vista, California.

It was on PUAHate that Rodger found “a forum full of men who are starved of sex, just like me.” It “confirmed many of the theories I had about how wicked and degenerate women really are.” In his 140-page manifesto, he declared:

“This whole viewpoint and ideology of abolishing sex stems from being deprived of it all my life. If I cannot have it, I will do everything I can to DESTROY IT. My orchestration of the Day of Retribution is my attempt to do everything, in my power, to destroy everything I cannot have. All of those beautiful girls I’ve desired so much in my life, but can never have because they despise and loathe me, I will destroy. All of those popular people who live hedonistic lives of pleasure, I will destroy, because they never accepted me as one of them. I will kill them all and make them suffer, just as they have made me suffer. It is only fair.”

While Rodger represents an extreme case, the kind of violence and hatred that led Rodger to action was not particularly surprising given the nature of the incel community. Incels, who luxuriate in their hatred of women, found a home for their hate-filled, misogynistic rants. One of the incel community’s common complaints is that women prefer “Chads” (empty-headed, good-looking men) to nice men like incels, and for this they deserve punishment. The violent rhetoric of this community finally led to the banning of the /incel subreddit — which claimed some 40,000 subscribers — in November 2017. The now banned subreddit had long featured content like posts entitled “all women are sluts.” Participants often decried women’s lack of brain capacity, genetic inferiority, cruelty, or designated women by the terms "femoids" or even, poetically, "cum dumpsters.”

Revealingly, since the Isla Vista shooting, Rodger is sometimes referred to by incel communities as St. Elliott.
===============

I could say that crime and watermelon is just something blacks discuss, but that would be racist, lumping everyone into one group, the same as what you are doing with incels.

Given that incels label themselves with that name, and proclaim their anger against women - no, it's not.

If you say that all blacks like crime and watermelon, that's racist. If there's a group of people who call themselves the 'crimenwatermelon club' then saying that they like crime and watermelon is not racist.

Can you see the difference there?

Sadly I do, because women rarely approach, and the women who do approach have no intention of any real relationship or even real sex for that matter. So I have no choice but to either approach, or be forever alone.

OK. So do so and stop complaining.

Your logic self-contradicts, why would I would be better off with the category "none" when I did not say "all", I said most, obviously there are 2 occurences which would contradict your statement, that is the occasional woman who is interesting, or the boring, yet attractive woman who just wanted casual sex.

Because you have had nothing but bad things to say about women.

Yes this is my point exactly, and yet most Americans are delusional and will not accept this point. They will not accept that American women are no different than males, and thus males are no different than women.

There are, of course, fundamental differences in both physiology (obviously) and evolved behavior (necessary when one sex bears children and the other does not.) But if your point is that they are far more alike than people like incels claim, then agreed 100%.

Incorrect, feminists will shame me, even for looking at cartoon porn, and even for wanting a female sex robot, such a thing they call evil objectification of women.

If you look at cartoon porn in public and talking about how you want a female sex robot to a bunch of strangers? You bet - and with good reason.

But if you just think about such things and keep them to yourself no one will shame you.

The audience of america, who watches feminist empowerment on tv and internet, giving them showers of praise and calling anyone who stands up for the rights of males a creep.

Don't worry then. You will never be on TV and thus will never even have an appreciable fraction of that audience. To all intents and purposes, the audience for your opinions will be 0%. The only audience you should care about are people whose opinions you value, and who you've gotten to know.

It can happen, however the main issue is women seem to have some kind of obsession for old men and ignore young men.

Sure. And some old women are the opposite. (Google "cougars.") And some young women prefer young men. Whatever floats your boat.

Statistics seem to disagree, as 83% of america is religious and has naive political views akin to that of a small child.

I know religious types who are indeed immature; I know religious types who are far more mature than you. Again, there are all kinds out there.

 

[gamelord]

The only difference with you, it seems, is that you feel that you are missing out because you really haven't had a long term relationship and the other difference is just that you are too passive to do anything about your situation.

False, I used to try to actively get relationships, am only passive now to recuperate from the relationship abuse and lies that were done to me.

Who is going to be interested in a passive male who wants to wear makeup and a dress and who lives with their parents? Blaming women in this case is ridiculous, don't you think?

Sexist male-hating dogma. Apparently males are not allowed to passive, which is sexist as fudge. But I'm not allowed to say it's sexist, because society is literally so sexist that you aren't even allwed to call out sexism when it happens. Second part of sexism is the living with the parents thing, like women are allowed to stay with families but males have to be pioneers who go out into the wilds. Its shaming of stay at home dads, absolute sexism. Third sexism is you shaming males for wearing makeup or girls clothes, absolute and total sexism. Women are allowed to wear mens clothes and tattoos, yet males are backed into a rigid corner forced to obey gender norms, and if they don't you shame them and say "If you want someone to love you, you better obey gender norms like a real man." And you are so sexist that you can't even see how sexist you are.

I'm all for it (young women dating old men) but it just doesn't happen enough.

You seem to have a problem with everything and somehow relate it back to you being a victim. Many women like to date a man a few years older than themselves. Some date guys a lot old, most do not.

How does this affect you? Either date someone a few years younger than you or choose among the majority that will date someone their own age.

This is the least of your problems wouldn't you agree?

Fair enough. Yes I suppose.

It is also characterized by a deep-seated hatred of women and calls for violence against them. From the Southern Poverty Law Center:

Revealingly, since the Isla Vista shooting, Rodger is sometimes referred to by incel communities as St. Elliott.
===============


Given that incels label themselves with that name, and proclaim their anger against women - no, it's not.

So Southern poverty law center says something, must be true? Someone says that Eliot is god of the incels, he must be god of the incels? He shouldn't even be god of the incels, I should be god of the incels, Eliot isn't even alive.
Your argument is the same crooked racist argument as per usual.
Its like a racist saying "Blacks portray themselves this way. Blacks make violent music, Blacks are violent black panthers, I am just judging how they identify."
So theres been 4 mass killings done by incels, as compared to what, the 3000 mass killings done by americans in the past century?
Heres what you aren't getting.
Incel refers to a phenomenon.
Has nothing to do with whether someone agrees with MRA or MGTOW.
Its like a male. A male is a phenomenon, the penis.
Now dont get mad about the transsexual thing, I believe transsexuals ought to have the right to be trans.
But I think that they were born male. Males who want to change their bodies to female bodies. Mtf.
If transsexuals were not born male, then there would be no desire to be transsexual in the first place.
Also, not talking about ftm transsexuals.
Just like incel is not a political phenomenon, but a physical one.
If you are incel, you are incel. If you become angry and bitter about it, so be it. If you choose to be a pacifist about it, so be it. Its just given the nature of male biology many of them become angry and bitter about it.

Can you see the difference there?

OK. So do so and stop complaining.

Because you have had nothing but bad things to say about women.

I have lots of bad things to say about men too, if it makes you feel any better.

There are, of course, fundamental differences in both physiology (obviously) and evolved behavior (necessary when one sex bears children and the other does not.) But if your point is that they are far more alike than people like incels claim, then agreed 100%.

If you look at cartoon porn in public and talking about how you want a female sex robot to a bunch of strangers? You bet - and with good reason.

And why should they shame me exactly? Because they are living under a hateful Puritan umbrella?
Besides you are missing the whole point I made altogether, which is that feminists are on some anti-male crusade to attack male sexuality. I was saying even if no real people were involved and nobody could possibly get raped, even if, they would still shame male sexuality. But it seems that whole thing went over your head.

But if you just think about such things and keep them to yourself no one will shame you.

Again they would, such is the nature of Puritan American hysteria.

Don't worry then. You will never be on TV and thus will never even have an appreciable fraction of that audience. To all intents and purposes, the audience for your opinions will be 0%. The only audience you should care about are people whose opinions you value, and who you've gotten to know.

You are totally delusional at this point. How do you even know the future to say whether or not I will be on TV. Do you have a big crystal ball? I was already on TV in the past, so why not the future?

I know religious types who are indeed immature; I know religious types who are far more mature than you. Again, there are all kinds out there.

Not possible. They are immediately disqualified for believing in something as ridiculous as religion. They might be harder workers than me but not actually mature in any way. For example a worker bee drone is a great worker but cannot compare to the mental faculties of a human being, and in this sense maturity is having logical and rational mental faculties, which most Americans largely do not.

 

[RainbowSingularity]

Immature

how does the word apply to interpersonal relationships ?
while i am not contesting your ideas, i am pointing out that there isa lot of large generalisations that go on with people defining people of various ages as being mature or immature.

consequently for an example if with age CAN come maturity, is it logical and easy to see working examples of this in interpersonal relationships where people of wide age ranges who share the same level of maturity ?

 

[billvon]

Apparently males are not allowed to passive, which is sexist as fudge.

Of course they are; there are whole genres of relationships where the man is the passive one, and that's been portrayed extensively in dramas.

So Southern poverty law center says something, must be true?

It is fairly likely to be true, yes. They have spent decades fighting injustice; they regularly took on the KKK, and was one of the first free legal representation groups to start winning. Since then they've kept track of white supremacist groups, anti-gay and anti-women groups and a host of other hate groups.

Someone says that Eliot is god of the incels, he must be god of the incels?

He is certainly the god of THAT incel.

He shouldn't even be god of the incels, I should be god of the incels

Ah, so you self-identify as an incel, and think you should be looked up to as one of them. Good to know.

In that case my advice gets a lot simpler. Want to meet women? Stop being an incel, get off the couch and move out of your mom's house. All three of those things will keep you from meeting women.

They are immediately disqualified for believing in something as ridiculous as religion.

Dude, you are an incel. You don't get to claim that other people believe in something ridiculous and are therefore disqualified. It's like a member of the US Nazi party claiming that Wal-Mart greeters are really mean.

 

[gamelord]

how does the word apply to interpersonal relationships ?
while i am not contesting your ideas, i am pointing out that there isa lot of large generalisations that go on with people defining people of various ages as being mature or immature.

consequently for an example if with age CAN come maturity, is it logical and easy to see working examples of this in interpersonal relationships where people of wide age ranges who share the same level of maturity ?

Women and men are immature in terms of sex, relationships, politics, religion, economy, philosophy, everything.
If I had to take a contest and put my foot down as to guess which percentage of the population it is, I would say there are more immature females than males.
And usually with age they still remain as immature as ever before, if not even more so due to cases like brain dementia.

Of course they are; there are whole genres of relationships where the man is the passive one, and that's been portrayed extensively in dramas.

Such as, NCIS, where the passive males are portrayed as forever incel and perpetually rejected by strong, cold females who do not have the slightest empathetic or nurturing qualities at all?

It is fairly likely to be true, yes. They have spent decades fighting injustice; they regularly took on the KKK, and was one of the first free legal representation groups to start winning. Since then they've kept track of white supremacist groups, anti-gay and anti-women groups and a host of other hate groups.

They have been tracking hate groups so long I wonder of any of the hate has rubbed off on them thus far.

He is certainly the god of THAT incel.

Ah, so you self-identify as an incel, and think you should be looked up to as one of them. Good to know.

I identified as a god of incels, doesn't make me incel, just as God being god of the humans, doesn't make him a human.

In that case my advice gets a lot simpler. Want to meet women? Stop being an incel, get off the couch and move out of your mom's house. All three of those things will keep you from meeting women.

Already tried that, didn't work out for me. I have met many women, none of them had a real interest in me.

Dude, you are an incel. You don't get to claim that other people believe in something ridiculous and are therefore disqualified. It's like a member of the US Nazi party claiming that Wal-Mart greeters are really mean.

Incel is not a belief system. Your belief system can modify your chances of being incel, but that is as far as it goes.
Incel is a state you just happen to be stuck in.
Nazis, and religious people, are both belief systems, so your logic does not apply.

 

[billvon]

Such as, NCIS, where the passive males are portrayed as forever incel and perpetually rejected by strong, cold females who do not have the slightest empathetic or nurturing qualities at all?

Or the old Three's Company, where the owner of the apartment complex was badgered by his aggressive wife who always wanted sex.
Or the DC comics series (Supergirl/The Flash etc) where men are often sidekicks - but have plenty of opportunites for relationships (and often avail themselves of them.)

They have been tracking hate groups so long I wonder of any of the hate has rubbed off on them thus far.

Or they are quite accurate and you don't like what that says about your own beliefs. Given that such a small group is already responsible for four murders, I'd say they are pretty spot-on.

Here's a good take on this from a Canadian paper:
============================================
Can the radicalization of ‘incels’ be stopped?

DAVID FUTRELLE
APRIL 27, 2018

When I learned that the suspect in the Toronto van attack had apparently posted a Facebook message identifying himself as a foot soldier in what he called the “incel rebellion,” I was saddened but not at all surprised. As the keeper of a blog devoted to tracking the culture of misogyny online, I have been watching the “incel” subculture for seven years – and I find its rise in the past several years to be nearly as disturbing as the recent rebirth of the neo-Nazi right.

Incel, as many Canadians have learned this past week, is short for “involuntary celibate,” and is the preferred moniker of a number of mostly young men united by a shared bitterness over their inability to persuade women to sleep with them. They let this fact define their entire lives, and devote much of their time online lashing out at the women who don’t want them – and picking over the supposed flaws in their own appearances that they think render them forever unlovable.

When you combine this sort of anger and self-pity, you often get violence. Four years ago, a man named Elliot Rodger murdered six in Isla Vista, Calif., in an attempt, as he explained in the 137-page manifesto he left behind, to take his “retribution” against women. Incels have embraced “Saint Elliot’” as a martyr and role model – and so, evidently, did Alek Minassian, who hailed “the Supreme Gentleman Elliot Rodger” in his Facebook post.

So is there any way we can prevent more tragedies such as this?

Remarkably, there have been some very patient “normies” – that’s how incels deem average people – who have waded into these hateful spaces in an attempt to convince the obviously damaged incels who inhabit them to seek out the professional help they so sorely need to sort through their deep resentments and build up a healthy self-esteem.

But most incels are too devoted to their own dysfunction, too committed to stewing in their own hate, too addicted to self-pity, to even consider it. And the few who have given it a try seem bent on sabotaging any chance it might make a difference. On Reddit’s main forum for incels, one recently complained that, after 10 therapy sessions, “I haven’t changed at all. I’ve not grown taller. My face hasn’t become any more attractive. I still get no attention from girls. Therapy was the most useless thing I’ve ever tried in my life.”

Therapy only works when patients truly want to change. And the sort of person who complains, absurdly, that therapy hasn’t made them taller or better looking – well, they aren’t likely to get much out of it.

Frankly, I’m not sure we can get very far with most incels by appealing to their humanity – as many of them don’t seem to have much humanity left. Scanning their forums in the wake of Monday’s tragedy, I haven’t found any real compassion for the victims. Some incels are indignantly denying that this horrific mass murder had anything to do with them. And others are justifying future murders even more horrible than the ones we’ve already seen. And in both of these scenarios, remarkably, incels manage to cast themselves as the true victims.

“Women and society have dejected us into loneliness and depression,” complains a commenter on Incels.me who calls himself eliotrogerhere. “Their obsession with looks has driven many of us who don’t fit their standards to anger and homicidal tendencies. This is not the result of mental illness because it is a normal response to prejudiced behavior. … What’s the incentive for incels (ugly men) to follow YOUR social rules, when our actions, GOOD or BAD, will never be rewarded? Why NOT shoot up that sorority full of girls that teased you?... [O]r get into a van and run you over.”
======================

Incel is not a belief system. Your belief system can modify your chances of being incel, but that is as far as it goes.

Of course it is. That's why incels have boards where they discuss that belief system; said beliefs include the idea that women are out to get them, that they spend their time shaming ugly men and otherwise acting against them, that the "Chads" and "Stacys" are scum for ignoring them.

Incel is a state you just happen to be stuck in.
Nazis, and religious people, are both belief systems, so your logic does not apply.

No, "incel" is not "I can't get sex whenever I want it." The only people who can get sex whenever they want it under any conditions are uncaptured rapists. The vast majority of the world can get sex out of their relationships, but since it involves consent, it doesn't happen on demand.

 

[gamelord]

Or the old Three's Company, where the owner of the apartment complex was badgered by his aggressive wife who always wanted sex.
Or the DC comics series (Supergirl/The Flash etc) where men are often sidekicks - but have plenty of opportunites for relationships (and often avail themselves of them.)

Or they are quite accurate and you don't like what that says about your own beliefs. Given that such a small group is already responsible for four murders, I'd say they are pretty spot-on.

Here's a good take on this from a Canadian paper:
============================================
Can the radicalization of ‘incels’ be stopped?

DAVID FUTRELLE
APRIL 27, 2018

When I learned that the suspect in the Toronto van attack had apparently posted a Facebook message identifying himself as a foot soldier in what he called the “incel rebellion,” I was saddened but not at all surprised. As the keeper of a blog devoted to tracking the culture of misogyny online, I have been watching the “incel” subculture for seven years – and I find its rise in the past several years to be nearly as disturbing as the recent rebirth of the neo-Nazi right.

Incel, as many Canadians have learned this past week, is short for “involuntary celibate,” and is the preferred moniker of a number of mostly young men united by a shared bitterness over their inability to persuade women to sleep with them. They let this fact define their entire lives, and devote much of their time online lashing out at the women who don’t want them – and picking over the supposed flaws in their own appearances that they think render them forever unlovable.

When you combine this sort of anger and self-pity, you often get violence. Four years ago, a man named Elliot Rodger murdered six in Isla Vista, Calif., in an attempt, as he explained in the 137-page manifesto he left behind, to take his “retribution” against women. Incels have embraced “Saint Elliot’” as a martyr and role model – and so, evidently, did Alek Minassian, who hailed “the Supreme Gentleman Elliot Rodger” in his Facebook post.

So is there any way we can prevent more tragedies such as this?

Remarkably, there have been some very patient “normies” – that’s how incels deem average people – who have waded into these hateful spaces in an attempt to convince the obviously damaged incels who inhabit them to seek out the professional help they so sorely need to sort through their deep resentments and build up a healthy self-esteem.

But most incels are too devoted to their own dysfunction, too committed to stewing in their own hate, too addicted to self-pity, to even consider it. And the few who have given it a try seem bent on sabotaging any chance it might make a difference. On Reddit’s main forum for incels, one recently complained that, after 10 therapy sessions, “I haven’t changed at all. I’ve not grown taller. My face hasn’t become any more attractive. I still get no attention from girls. Therapy was the most useless thing I’ve ever tried in my life.”

Therapy only works when patients truly want to change. And the sort of person who complains, absurdly, that therapy hasn’t made them taller or better looking – well, they aren’t likely to get much out of it.

Frankly, I’m not sure we can get very far with most incels by appealing to their humanity – as many of them don’t seem to have much humanity left. Scanning their forums in the wake of Monday’s tragedy, I haven’t found any real compassion for the victims. Some incels are indignantly denying that this horrific mass murder had anything to do with them. And others are justifying future murders even more horrible than the ones we’ve already seen. And in both of these scenarios, remarkably, incels manage to cast themselves as the true victims.

“Women and society have dejected us into loneliness and depression,” complains a commenter on Incels.me who calls himself eliotrogerhere. “Their obsession with looks has driven many of us who don’t fit their standards to anger and homicidal tendencies. This is not the result of mental illness because it is a normal response to prejudiced behavior. … What’s the incentive for incels (ugly men) to follow YOUR social rules, when our actions, GOOD or BAD, will never be rewarded? Why NOT shoot up that sorority full of girls that teased you?... [O]r get into a van and run you over.”
======================

Of course it is. That's why incels have boards where they discuss that belief system; said beliefs include the idea that women are out to get them, that they spend their time shaming ugly men and otherwise acting against them, that the "Chads" and "Stacys" are scum for ignoring them.

No, "incel" is not "I can't get sex whenever I want it." The only people who can get sex whenever they want it under any conditions are uncaptured rapists. The vast majority of the world can get sex out of their relationships, but since it involves consent, it doesn't happen on demand.

So I guess Southern Poverty has grown tired of fighting bigots, and decided to become bigots themselves. Ah its the same old story of Harvey Dent.

The vast majority of the world can get sex out of their relationships, but since it involves consent, it doesn't happen on demand.

The vast majority of incels can't get relationships.

Or the old Three's Company, where the owner of the apartment complex was badgered by his aggressive wife who always wanted sex.
Or the DC comics series (Supergirl/The Flash etc) where men are often sidekicks - but have plenty of opportunites for relationships (and often avail themselves of them.)

All examples of powerful alpha males and macho dogma.

Or they are quite accurate and you don't like what that says about your own beliefs. Given that such a small group is already responsible for four murders, I'd say they are pretty spot-on.

There are 17,250 murders in the US per year.
So thats 4 out of 17,250.
0.02%.

 

[billvon]

So I guess Southern Poverty has grown tired of fighting bigots, and decided to become bigots themselves.

Nope. Fighting bigotry is not bigotry.

Nazis, the KKK and similar hate groups use similar sophistry. "The SPLC hates us! I guess they're not so tolerant after all! Hypocrites."

All examples of powerful alpha males and macho dogma.

So a show where a woman (Supergirl) is a superhero, supported by a geeky (male) techie sidekick, is an example of powerful alpha males and macho dogma? Interesting.

There are 17,250 murders in the US per year.

Committed primarily by criminals who act out of revenge, greed or anger.

How many of those are doing it for their cause? Very few.

Now, how many incels are there in the US? (These are the incels who are members of that belief system - the sort that post on message boards and worship "the Supreme Gentleman Elliot Rodger")

 

[gamelord]

Nope. Fighting bigotry is not bigotry.

Nazis, the KKK and similar hate groups use similar sophistry. "The SPLC hates us! I guess they're not so tolerant after all! Hypocrites."

Here's the difference: KKK are Nazi are a belief system. Incel is not a belief system, it is a condition. It is similar to how black and mexican are not a belief system, they are condition. Though many blacks share similar belief systems with other blacks, mexicans share similar belief systems with other mexicans, incel shares many belief systems with other incels, and Southern Poverty wants to play the role of the proverbial racist and claim the equivalent of, all blacks like rap music, all mexicans like tacos, and all incels like rape.

So a show where a woman (Supergirl) is a superhero, supported by a geeky (male) techie sidekick, is an example of powerful alpha males and macho dogma? Interesting.

Sorry, I haven't been up to date with my latest juvenile American propoganda TV.
But I'm guessing even those males still don't stray too far from the American male gender dogma.

Committed primarily by criminals who act out of revenge, greed or anger.

How many of those are doing it for their cause? Very few.

Now, how many incels are there in the US? (These are the incels who are members of that belief system - the sort that post on message boards and worship "the Supreme Gentleman Elliot Rodger")

I am sure there are many incels, but many are closet about it because of the American gender dogma that virgin males and males who don't have girlfriends are taboo and not masculine enough to be popular in society.

 

[billvon]

Here's the difference: KKK are Nazi are a belief system. Incel is not a belief system, it is a condition.

No, it is not. That's like claiming being a white nationalist is just a condition; it's just a white guy who lives in a nation, right? Wrong.

Incels are people who share common beliefs - that they are victims of a system that actively works against them, and that women are working to belittle and marginalize them. They gather in online communities to garner pity for their condition; on those forums they share their misogynist beliefs and fantasize about revenge against the Stacys and Chads of the world. Fortunately there aren't many of them; tens of thousands by one authority on the issue.

Compare that to single guys who can't find a date. There are tens of millions of those in the US. They are not incels.

Sorry, I haven't been up to date with my latest juvenile American propoganda TV.

Funny, you go from being an expert on propaganda TV when you think it supports your claims, to "not up to date" with it when it refutes them. How convenient!

I am sure there are many incels, but many are closet about it . . . .

Nope. Most don't have that level of misogyny, self-pity and resentment.

. . . .because of the American gender dogma that virgin males and males who don't have girlfriends are taboo and not masculine enough to be popular in society.

There is no such dogma, other than in your mind. You've never heard of the term "most eligible bachelor?"

 

[gamelord]

Incels are people who share common beliefs

Compare that to single guys who can't find a date. There are tens of millions of those in the US. They are not incels.

Single guys who cant get laid are involuntary celibates. Thus incels. You can pretend that incel stands for something that isnt involuntary celibate but at that point you'd be delusional.

Funny, you go from being an expert on propaganda TV when you think it supports your claims, to "not up to date" with it when it refutes them. How convenient!

There is a fallacy in here somewhere.
Mainly I stated I know the nature of American TV propoganda. That doesn't mean I have to keep up with every latest trivia of what the kids are watching, nor does it mean I have to be God and omnipotent.

Nope. Most don't have that level of misogyny, self-pity and resentment.

There is no such dogma, other than in your mind. You've never heard of the term "most eligible bachelor?"

Mostly a term for frat boys and upper-middle class males who rigidly follow the American male gender dogma.
If you aren't a male of privilege and "status" then the "bachelor prestige" simply does not apply here.

 

[billvon]

Single guys who cant get laid are involuntary celibates. Thus incels. You can pretend that incel stands for something that isnt involuntary celibate but at that point you'd be delusional.

Do you think that white nationalist just stands for a white person who lives in a nation? Do you think feminists are just women who feel feminine?

Here are a few more definitions of incels:

Racked: Incel, the online community of “involuntarily celibate” men radicalized by their shared mistrust of women, has existed on the internet for years.

GQ: Incel stands for "involuntary celibate" – the name assumed by deeply misogynistic men who believe women are to blame for their lack of sexual intimacy.

Wiktionary: A member of a mostly online subculture of people (typically misogynistic straight men) who define themselves by being unable to find a sexual relationship despite desiring one.

Harpers: Incels, or “involuntary celibates," are a hate group. That’s not up for debate. Incels—which, along with Pick Up Artists, Men's Rights Activists, and Men Going Their Own Way, comprise a portion of the manosphere—believe that women (who get labeled "roasties," "femoids," and "Stacys") flock to other men ("Chads") who are not them. This enrages them as they feel they are owed sex by those same women.

Keegan Hanks: [Incels are] men who believe that women are withholding sex from them, and they are celibate not by choice but because of societal structures, or because of feminism or because of the evils of women.

USA Today: A common theme among Incels is that women, or "Stacys," are shallow hypocrites for having sex with men with muscles or money, called "Chads," instead of ostensibly nice guys like them who need and deserve sex.

New York Times: Incels are misogynists who are deeply suspicious and disparaging of women, whom they blame for denying them their right to sexual intercourse.

Glamour: Incel is short for “involuntarily celibate,” a term originally coined in 1993 by a queer woman searching for a way to describe her sense of loneliness, and to connect with others who felt the same. The phrase has since been co-opted by an online community of men who are, in the simplest terms, angry that they can’t convince women to have sex with them. Unlike typical men who are irked they’re not having sex, incels don’t grouse to their friends over beers and try to pick up girls at bars—they talk about overthrowing feminism and, often, plot violence against women, including advocating for state-sanctioned rape on subreddits like r/braincels, on 4Chan, and on various sites like incels.me.

Vox: Self-identified incels, as they call themselves, have developed an elaborate sociopolitical explanation for their sexual failures, one that centers on the idea that women are shallow, vicious, and only attracted to hyper-muscular men. They see this as a profound injustice against men like them, who suffer an inherent genetic disadvantage through no fault of their own.

New Statesman: Those who identify themselves as Incel, bitterly call people who do have sex “Chads and Staceys”, as the Toronto attacker appears to have done, reportedly sharing cartoons and memes that present women as shallow seekers of hard-bodied perfection. They tend to vociferously deny the rejection by women and wider society that they see as so unfair is down to their own behaviour of choices.

Mainly I stated I know the nature of American TV propoganda. That doesn't mean I have to keep up with every latest trivia of what the kids are watching, nor does it mean I have to be God and omnipotent.

So you only know the nature of things in American media that support your beliefs, and you ignore the nature of things that tend to disprove your beliefs. Not a very wise way to live your life; you wind up pretty ignorant of the topics you feel strongly about.

Mostly a term for frat boys and upper-middle class males who rigidly follow the American male gender dogma.

You just blamed "American gender dogma that virgin males and males who don't have girlfriends are taboo and not masculine enough to be popular in society." Now you are saying that's not true for groups you dislike?

It's hard to keep up with the groups you hate, and your shifting rationalizations for your hatred of them.

Honestly you are sounding more and more like an incel.

 

[RainbowSingularity]

Women and men are immature in terms of sex, relationships, politics, religion, economy, philosophy, everything.
If I had to take a contest and put my foot down as to guess which percentage of the population it is, I would say there are more immature females than males.
And usually with age they still remain as immature as ever before, if not even more so due to cases like brain dementia.

terms of "etc etc"
terms tend to be quite culturally specific in understanding and application.

the sexual association of terms like bum, ass, but and fanny for example.
using the UK & USA cultural models.

the meanings can be interpreted as sexual, demeaning, insulting, jovial contextually definiative.

calling someone in the UK a "bum" is almost a term of endearment
while calling someone in the USA a "bum" is a simple outright insult
(i am not going to get into the specificity of cultural differences for those that do not understand)

walking around in the uk using the term "fanny-pack" will (potentially)make people hide their children from you and think your a bit of a sexual pervert.
while in the usa it is just an expresion.
the meanings are vastly different and consequential sexual association is quite specific and varied.

"maturity" is subjective.

note order of importance "sex then relationships"
the nature of the context is interpersonal relationships based on potential mating & breeding processes(paternal/maternal consequentiality) as a default expectation.

are you trying to smash a square peg through a round hole ?

1 person is not considered a family (subjective cultural laws)
when people ask "do you have a family" ? does a gay person say "yes" if they have a partner ?

are you being confined by trying to think like others to allow yourself to think by yourself ?

 

[gamelord]

terms of "etc etc"
terms tend to be quite culturally specific in understanding and application.

the sexual association of terms like bum, ass, but and fanny for example.
using the UK & USA cultural models.

the meanings can be interpreted as sexual, demeaning, insulting, jovial contextually definiative.

calling someone in the UK a "bum" is almost a term of endearment
while calling someone in the USA a "bum" is a simple outright insult
(i am not going to get into the specificity of cultural differences for those that do not understand)

walking around in the uk using the term "fanny-pack" will (potentially)make people hide their children from you and think your a bit of a sexual pervert.
while in the usa it is just an expresion.
the meanings are vastly different and consequential sexual association is quite specific and varied.

"maturity" is subjective.

note order of importance "sex then relationships"
the nature of the context is interpersonal relationships based on potential mating & breeding processes(paternal/maternal consequentiality) as a default expectation.

are you trying to smash a square peg through a round hole ?

1 person is not considered a family (subjective cultural laws)
when people ask "do you have a family" ? does a gay person say "yes" if they have a partner ?

are you being confined by trying to think like others to allow yourself to think by yourself ?

It was order of immaturity, Americans tend to be more immature about sex and somewhat more mature in terms of relationships. But their level of maturity about sex and relationships is nearly equal, and one might argue America's views of relationships are slightly more immature than their views of sex.

The rest of it I did not really take the time to put into a particular order.

As for a family it constitutes at least 3 people.