What do girls want?

[billvon]

Proves nothing. Most of these men perfected their "game" and also do approach escalation to get women.
That is most of these men had to get women to date them than the other way around.

No, most men figured out that "perfecting their game" - and approaching women like they were prey - was not really the way to find partners.

Meaningless. A man can buy a prostitute or have sex with a drunk woman who doesn't really love him.

Or a sober woman who doesn't really love him (and who they don't love.) But they like each other. Indeed, that's probably the most common state of a couple when they first have sex.

Incels means involuntary celibate.
Many incels are not virgins, they just have a tough time of it in the game.

Ah, so an "incel" is someone who just isn't getting sex as often as they like? Well, then, most people are incels!

I've been pursued than more than 3 women as a well. That i didnt have interest in.

OK, so you are choosing to be alone. No problems there. Just remember that it was your decision before you start your next sad tale of woe.

I did join a church. The women there were insane. Well naturally because it was a church.
What do I mean by insane, and this gets to the problem at large?
Girl at the church declared me her boyfriend and started massaging me and getting sexual.
Then when I asked to meet her outside of the church, she put up her walls and refused to go on a date or spend time with me.

So she massaged you and "got sexual" in the church? OK, whatever she is into. There are plenty of crazy people out there. (I've dated some of them.)

To these kinds of women its all a game, they objectify you and they are narcissists who don't care about your feelings or emotions or needs at all.
If you tell them you are lonely, they wont feel a shred of sympathy for you.

Probably. If you spend a lot of time with a woman, and you tell them you are lonely every time you are together, she is going to wonder why you don't consider her a partner.

Then they will say "man up", get "confidence" and a bunch of other psychopathic bs.

If you think "get confidence" is "a bunch of psychopathic BS" then you've got some very big issues.

most people are shallow sheeple and unrelatable, that is most of them are dullards.

See above.

 

[Michael 345]

Because many priests are celibate by choice

My point was they SAY that they are celibate as do nuns
In reality whole different story

 

[gamelord]

No, most men figured out that "perfecting their game" - and approaching women like they were prey - was not really the way to find partners.

Men only do that because women rarely chase or display any initiative in seducing men. And when many women do seduce its usually fake and phony as some kind of narcissistic mind game.

Or a sober woman who doesn't really love him (and who they don't love.) But they like each other. Indeed, that's probably the most common state of a couple when they first have sex.

Yeah but still its more real than some drunk woman who doesn't care about you at all.

Ah, so an "incel" is someone who just isn't getting sex as often as they like? Well, then, most people are incels!

That is my point exactly. And what I mean is not getting sex for a ridiculously long time, like a year or half-a year or more. Its been years since my dad has gotten any sex, the ultimate result of the failed american marriage system.

OK, so you are choosing to be alone. No problems there. Just remember that it was your decision before you start your next sad tale of woe.

Believe me, I know. I've punished myself endlessly. But that was over 10 years ago. As much as I wish I could go back in time and change that, I can't. I am stuck with the reality I have now. And at this point, it's no longer my fault.

Not to mention, the women that did chase after me in the past, were tremendously innappropriate and rude and borderline rapists. Yet the double standard remains, I'm supposed to be thankful and it's my fault I'm alone, because I ought to be grateful if a woman molests or rapes me. And that is how bad the dating zone's got.

So she massaged you and "got sexual" in the church? OK, whatever she is into. There are plenty of crazy people out there. (I've dated some of them.)

Again, its always about what the woman's into. Never about my feelings and how its not okay to play narcissistic mind-games with me.

Probably. If you spend a lot of time with a woman, and you tell them you are lonely every time you are together, she is going to wonder why you don't consider her a partner.

Most of the women I say I am lonely to have already made it clear they are unavailiable. But if a girl was genuinely into me I wouldn't say I'm lonely, unless it was like a first meeting and I wanted to know if she'd either offer her sympathy or chastize me. And depending on her response I could gauge her interest level, if she says "I'm here' it means she wants me, if she says "I know you'll find someone someday" its 50/50, unsure.

If you think "get confidence" is "a bunch of psychopathic BS" then you've got some very big issues.

See above.

You got issues if you can't see what it is. The world wants men to cater to it and provide all of the entertainment and iniative. A man is shamed for being shy because a man is expected to iniate every aspect of the encounter.
And its psychopathic because, it is a world view that excuses women's lack of empathy for shy folk, and excuses the lack of empathy period, because it is literally saying that woman are literally unable to empathize with someone who isn't open about their feelings. As in they inherently lack the ability to understand their feelings, unless it is literally presented to them in a confident manner.

 

[sideshowbob]

I have recently become irresistible to 20-year-old women.

But I have no illusions about it. It's because I remind them of their grandfathers.

 

[billvon]

My point was they SAY that they are celibate as do nuns
In reality whole different story

Most are celibate. The exceptions get a lot of press.

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

Since when to women approach men sitting alone at a park?

It happens to me and I am old and do not look conventional.
If you go regular folk get used to each other ...try it for six months.
You dont sit there expecting some one is going to come over pat the puppy and say lets go back to my place.

Most of them might talk and approach, but not be interested in anything romantic.

Romance can only happen if you are out there you increase the odds sitting on a park bench over your sofa at home.

And if a girl actually is interesting and fun to be around, you can usually bet she has a jealous boyfriend who keeps her under lock and key.

Well get his name and challenge him to a cage fight or maybe ask about her friends.
Sure lots of things may not happen but its like the lottery you cant expect to win unless you buy a ticket.
Stop your dispair and negative thinking which destroys your ability to exude confidence and a happy personality.
Try sitting in the park with the puppy and knitting it a jumper and when the right one asks are you knitting a coat for your puppy you can say yes how would you like to marry me.
If that does not work take two puppies and a wheelbarrow full of gold.
Alex

 

[billvon]

Yeah but still its more real than some drunk woman who doesn't care about you at all.

Right. So perhaps choose to spend your time with sober women.

That is my point exactly. And what I mean is not getting sex for a ridiculously long time, like a year or half-a year or more. Its been years since my dad has gotten any sex, the ultimate result of the failed american marriage system.

OK. So since you have a different definition than everyone else, I'll call your definition "gincel." Normal "incels" claim they never get sex, that "chads" and "stacys" are in some sort of conspiracy to keep them celibate. Here's a pretty good definition from Wikipedia:
============
Incels (a portmanteau of "involuntary celibates") are self-identifying members of an online subculture who define themselves as unable to find a romantic or sexual partner despite desiring one, a state they describe as inceldom. Self-identified incels are mostly white, male, and heterosexual. Discussions in incel forums are often characterized by resentment, misanthropy, self-pity, self-loathing, misogyny, racism, a sense of entitlement to sex, and the endorsement of violence against sexually active people. The Southern Poverty Law Center described the subculture as "part of the online male supremacist ecosystem" that is a member of their list of hate groups. People who have either self-identified as incels or who had mentioned incel-related names and literature in their private writings or internet postings have committed at least four mass murders in North America.
=============

Believe me, I know. I've punished myself endlessly. But that was over 10 years ago. As much as I wish I could go back in time and change that, I can't. I am stuck with the reality I have now. And at this point, it's no longer my fault.

?? There's no 'time limit.' It was your decision. We all live with the consequences of our decisions.

Not to mention, the women that did chase after me in the past, were tremendously innappropriate and rude and borderline rapists. Yet the double standard remains, I'm supposed to be thankful . . . .

No, you are just 'supposed' to decide what you want and then pursue that. No one is asking you to be "thankful."

and it's my fault I'm alone, because I ought to be grateful if a woman molests or rapes me. And that is how bad the dating zone's got.

Again - no.

Again, its always about what the woman's into. Never about my feelings and how its not okay to play narcissistic mind-games with me.

Then tell her that, and find someone better. Stop being a victim.

You got issues if you can't see what it is. The world wants men to cater to it and provide all of the entertainment and iniative. A man is shamed for being shy because a man is expected to iniate every aspect of the encounter.

Again, you've just met the wrong women. If you think your few bad experiences is representative of all women - there are plenty of incel websites where you can hate on them. (If that's your thing.)

And its psychopathic because, it is a world view that excuses women's lack of empathy for shy folk

You are not entitled to special care just because you're shy. No one but you will solve your issues with women.

and excuses the lack of empathy period, because it is literally saying that woman are literally unable to empathize with someone who isn't open about their feelings.

NO ONE is able to empathize with someone who isn't open about their feelings. If you refuse to let anyone know how you feel, and do your best to hide your feelings, it is no one's fault but your own if they can't figure out how you feel.

 

[Seattle]

Men only do that because women rarely chase or display any initiative in seducing men. And when many women do seduce its usually fake and phony as some kind of narcissistic mind game.


Yeah but still its more real than some drunk woman who doesn't care about you at all.


That is my point exactly. And what I mean is not getting sex for a ridiculously long time, like a year or half-a year or more. Its been years since my dad has gotten any sex, the ultimate result of the failed american marriage system.

Believe me, I know. I've punished myself endlessly. But that was over 10 years ago. As much as I wish I could go back in time and change that, I can't. I am stuck with the reality I have now. And at this point, it's no longer my fault.

Not to mention, the women that did chase after me in the past, were tremendously innappropriate and rude and borderline rapists. Yet the double standard remains, I'm supposed to be thankful and it's my fault I'm alone, because I ought to be grateful if a woman molests or rapes me. And that is how bad the dating zone's got.


Again, its always about what the woman's into. Never about my feelings and how its not okay to play narcissistic mind-games with me.


Most of the women I say I am lonely to have already made it clear they are unavailiable. But if a girl was genuinely into me I wouldn't say I'm lonely, unless it was like a first meeting and I wanted to know if she'd either offer her sympathy or chastize me. And depending on her response I could gauge her interest level, if she says "I'm here' it means she wants me, if she says "I know you'll find someone someday" its 50/50, unsure.


You got issues if you can't see what it is. The world wants men to cater to it and provide all of the entertainment and iniative. A man is shamed for being shy because a man is expected to iniate every aspect of the encounter.
And its psychopathic because, it is a world view that excuses women's lack of empathy for shy folk, and excuses the lack of empathy period, because it is literally saying that woman are literally unable to empathize with someone who isn't open about their feelings. As in they inherently lack the ability to understand their feelings, unless it is literally presented to them in a confident manner.

How can a woman rape you?
If you want to interest those outside of the LGBT community, don't wear a dress.

How many women are looking for a guy who wants to wear a dress? Really, you should just get out more, learn to be OK with not being in a romantic relationship (you aren't that into women anyway) and just decide to be happy in life.

You do have to get out of the house though. You have a hand, so you can't be that sexually frustrated. You don't seem like the relationship type so don't force it. You keep talking about sheeple and traditional values and yet you want to fit into that system.

Just go out and make friends who like to do whatever you like to do and don't overthink it beyond that.

 

[Tiassa]

How can a woman rape you?

It's possible.

How many women are looking for a guy who wants to wear a dress?

You might be amazed. Well, okay, they aren't necessarily scrawling that criterion at the top of the list, but there is a perfect illustration for our neighbor: Is he asking her about her skirt in order to tell her how fine she looks in it, or because he's jealous and wants to know where to get one?

I can promise him the latter gets the better response. He's not going to ask where to get one if she looks like shit. And if he really wants to make the point, there is a way to compliment a woman by acknowledging there's just no way to wear it as well as she does. (Hint: It's a safe line for being inherently true, as the clothes are cut for a woman's body.)

 

[Seattle]

It's possible.

Anything is possible. It's not a concern that is at the top of my list of personal worries. It is something that most women have to be concerned about.

You might be amazed. Well, okay, they aren't necessarily scrawling that criterion at the top of the list, but there is a perfect illustration for our neighbor: Is he asking her about her skirt in order to tell her how fine she looks in it, or because he's jealous and wants to know where to get one?

I can promise him the latter gets the better response. He's not going to ask where to get one if she looks like shit. And if he really wants to make the point, there is a way to compliment a woman by acknowledging there's just no way to wear it as well as she does. (Hint: It's a safe line for being inherently true, as the clothes are cut for a woman's body.)

Yes, I might be amazed but probably not. It depends on what is meant by "a woman looking for a guy who wants to wear a dress". If they are looking for a shopping friend, sure. If they are looking for a boyfriend, not so much.

Most of the women I know, date, observe, don't have a boyfriend/husband who wears a dress.

 

[TheFrogger]

Unconditional love. To be loved.

 

[gamelord]

It happens to me and I am old and do not look conventional.

American women seem to have some obsession with dating old men. I am both for and against this. I like the idea of men getting something for their troubles and time spent on this world. But I hate the idea that if you are young, women don't appreciate you. The other thing I hate is that it seems to be a kind of sexual dysfunction, like women are repulsed by men who are healthy and have vigor.

If you go regular folk get used to each other ...try it for six months.
You dont sit there expecting some one is going to come over pat the puppy and say lets go back to my place.

If that is unlikely to happen then whats the point? If I have to wait 6 months to get laid I'd have better luck with online dating, even though that's not much odds to begin with. Really? Walking a puppy? Knitting? Waiting 6 months to get laid? Talk about emasculation...and I'm the one being told I need to be more masculine? I feel my testesterone building as we speak.

Romance can only happen if you are out there you increase the odds sitting on a park bench over your sofa at home.

Dunno, I could do online dating at the sofa.
The other thing is, sitting in a park doing nothing might damage my self-esteem if nothing happens after a while.

Well get his name and challenge him to a cage fight or maybe ask about her friends.

The wild west days are long gone, most men are emasculated and wouldn't dare fight me anyway.

Sure lots of things may not happen but its like the lottery you cant expect to win unless you buy a ticket.
Stop your dispair and negative thinking which destroys your ability to exude confidence and a happy personality.
Try sitting in the park with the puppy and knitting it a jumper and when the right one asks are you knitting a coat for your puppy you can say yes how would you like to marry me.
If that does not work take two puppies and a wheelbarrow full of gold.
Alex

Wheelbarrow full of gold...k I will just visit my local gold mine and get some pronto.

 

[gamelord]

Right. So perhaps choose to spend your time with sober women.

OK. So since you have a different definition than everyone else, I'll call your definition "gincel." Normal "incels" claim they never get sex, that "chads" and "stacys" are in some sort of conspiracy to keep them celibate. Here's a pretty good definition from Wikipedia:
============
Incels (a portmanteau of "involuntary celibates") are self-identifying members of an online subculture who define themselves as unable to find a romantic or sexual partner despite desiring one, a state they describe as inceldom.

Nope still incel. Many incels are not virgin, but just have a tough time to get laid with whom they lust, or win the affection of whom they love. And when they do get laid, its usually out of desperation and not with someone who truly loves them or whom they love. The path of the incel is twofold: unsatisfied lust, and also unsatisfied love.

?? There's no 'time limit.' It was your decision. We all live with the consequences of our decisions.

At this point its more so social attitudes than anything I did 10 years ago.

Again, you've just met the wrong women. If you think your few bad experiences is representative of all women - there are plenty of incel websites where you can hate on them. (If that's your thing.)

Not all women but the problem is especially deep in America.

You are not entitled to special care just because you're shy. No one but you will solve your issues with women.

NO ONE is able to empathize with someone who isn't open about their feelings. If you refuse to let anyone know how you feel, and do your best to hide your feelings, it is no one's fault but your own if they can't figure out how you feel.

I dont think your understanding the argument.
The argument is equality:
Men often approach and are friendly to shy women, yet women often avoid shy men and call them creepy or evil. It is a sexist double standard.
The double standard exists because most women inherently hate men, and only the confident man gets the woman out of her introverted man-hating attitude.

 

[billvon]

American women seem to have some obsession with dating old men. I am both for and against this. I like the idea of men getting something for their troubles and time spent on this world. But I hate the idea that if you are young, women don't appreciate you.

I think it's more that if you are immature, women don't appreciate you. It's cute in a 10 year old, not so much in a 25 year old.

The other thing I hate is that it seems to be a kind of sexual dysfunction, like women are repulsed by men who are healthy and have vigor.

Or they are attracted to men who are healthy and have vigor (which many 'old men' have.)

The other thing is, sitting in a park doing nothing might damage my self-esteem if nothing happens after a while.

From what you've presented here - too late.

 

[gamelord]

I think it's more that if you are immature, women don't appreciate you. It's cute in a 10 year old, not so much in a 25 year old.

Or they are attracted to men who are healthy and have vigor (which many 'old men' have.)

From what you've presented here - too late.

Classic 1984 inversion of reality.

Old men, are less healthy than young. This is obvious to the sane.

In my eyes American women are generally immature, taking selfies, talking about memes, trends, posting their dinner photos and other childish nonsense on facebook.

You do have to get out of the house though. You have a hand, so you can't be that sexually frustrated. You don't seem like the relationship type so don't force it. You keep talking about sheeple and traditional values and yet you want to fit into that system.

Masturbation, porn is not real, not sexually satisfying.

And I am the relationship type, its just that most people bore me, and I dont want a boring relationship with someone who takes me to church and does boring things like talking about the weather all day for no good reason.

 

[gamelord]

You might be amazed. Well, okay, they aren't necessarily scrawling that criterion at the top of the list, but there is a perfect illustration for our neighbor: Is he asking her about her skirt in order to tell her how fine she looks in it, or because he's jealous and wants to know where to get one?

I can promise him the latter gets the better response. He's not going to ask where to get one if she looks like shit. And if he really wants to make the point, there is a way to compliment a woman by acknowledging there's just no way to wear it as well as she does. (Hint: It's a safe line for being inherently true, as the clothes are cut for a woman's body.)

So you are sticking up for me again, I guess this makes us frenemies.

In any case, I still disagree with half of what you are saying.
Why is it that in society, women hate getting compliments from men? That it is viewed as so wrong for a man to have sexual attraction for a woman. Maybe it is a genetic thing, maybe women are inherently genetically hateful of men.

Most of the women I know, date, observe, don't have a boyfriend/husband who wears a dress.

Yes because women propel and uphold the rigid gender norms of toxic masculinity, males are forced into a rigid corner and have to obey rigid macho ideals of appearance. Anyone who defies these ideals is cast out by society as an outsider. Christian women can wear suits and men's clothes, but if a man wears a dress then it is a sin against god.

 

[billvon]

Nope still incel. Many incels are not virgin, but just have a tough time to get laid with whom they lust, or win the affection of whom they love.

Again, that describes a lot of normal people. Incels have an additional layer of anger and entitlement.

Here's a more colloquial definition from Urban Dictionary that looks like it works:

====================
Incel: aka "involuntarily celibate", a person (usually male) who has a horrible personality and treats women like sexual objects and thinks his lack of a sex life comes from being "ugly" when its really just his blatant sexism and terrible attitude. Incels have little to no self awareness; even when they see other "ugly" men with girlfriends, they consider these men to be tricksters who have somehow beat the system and can get women despite being cursed with unattractiveness (in other words, they are respectful to women and women are attracted to their personalities, but incels cant comprehend such a phenomenon). They believe that women owe them sex, and many of the more extreme incels like to spend time in incel communities on the internet coming up with ways to make women have sex with them (often involving genocide of people of color, killing of "Chads", taking rights away from women, raping them, having sex with women's dead bodies, and other horrid, disgusting things. Then can't understand that that is PRECISELY why women want nothing to do with them).
====================

Not all women but the problem is especially deep in America.

Not even most women. Most women, like most men, are basically decent people.

Men often approach and are friendly shy women, yet women often avoid shy men and call them creepy or evil. It is a sexist double standard.

There is no double standard. Men more often _choose_ to be more aggressive than women; go to any singles bar to watch this in action. That is a _choice._ Some women choose that, but fewer of them. Again, that's a choice.

Almost no one will call you creepy or evil if you simply keep to yourself. If you start lecturing people about how women are evil and sexist, then of course you might get called that.

The double standard exists because most women inherently hate men, and only the confident man gets the woman out of her introverted man-hating attitude.

That's so wrong I don't even know where to start. I'd have to understand your particular pathology to work on that, and I don't.

And I am the relationship type, its just that most people bore me, and I dont want a boring relationship with someone who takes me to church and does boring things like talking about the weather all day for no good reason.

OK, so now you are saying you don't want a relationship because it might bore you. Fine; your choice. Stop complaining about your own choices.

 

[billvon]

Old men, are less healthy than young. This is obvious to the sane.

I will give you two examples.

One is Dan. He's 55. He runs marathons and is a skydiver. He's happily married.
Another is Cy. He's about 30. He is morbidly obese and complains about how women don't like him. (I hear about this because he is often in the break room complaining about this.)

Dan is much, much healthier than Cy. THAT is obvious to anyone who is sane.

In my eyes American women are generally immature, taking selfies, talking about memes, trends, posting their dinner photos and other childish nonsense on facebook.

Again, in general, you are wrong. There are, of course, immature women, just as there are immature men. These are in the minority.

 

[gamelord]

Again, that describes a lot of normal people. Incels have an additional layer of anger and entitlement.

Here's a more colloquial definition from Urban Dictionary that looks like it works:

====================
Incel: aka "involuntarily celibate", a person (usually male) who has a horrible personality and treats women like sexual objects and thinks his lack of a sex life comes from being "ugly" when its really just his blatant sexism and terrible attitude. Incels have little to no self awareness; even when they see other "ugly" men with girlfriends, they consider these men to be tricksters who have somehow beat the system and can get women despite being cursed with unattractiveness (in other words, they are respectful to women and women are attracted to their personalities, but incels cant comprehend such a phenomenon). They believe that women owe them sex, and many of the more extreme incels like to spend time in incel communities on the internet coming up with ways to make women have sex with them (often involving genocide of people of color, killing of "Chads", taking rights away from women, raping them, having sex with women's dead bodies, and other horrid, disgusting things. Then can't understand that that is PRECISELY why women want nothing to do with them).
====================

Oh you got your definition of incel from Urban Dictionary. And here I thought we were having a serious discussion.
That is funny, you got your definition from a hate-site, to criticize people you claim to be hateful.
My definiton of incel is this.
In-voluntary, cel-ibate. Necrophilia not required to fulfill the definition.

Not even most women. Most women, like most men, are basically decent people.

Decent are they? Well I guess that excludes them from being good. And yes most Americans (men and women) are not good people.

There is no double standard. Men more often _choose_ to be more aggressive than women; go to any singles bar to watch this in action. That is a _choice._ Some women choose that, but fewer of them. Again, that's a choice.

Nice you chose the word "aggressive" for that. So if you want to find love it means you are doing some kind of negative act.
And the fact women don't actively seek love, means they are less "aggressive", implying that promoting love is some kind of negative act.

Almost no one will call you creepy or evil if you simply keep to yourself. If you start lecturing people about how women are evil and sexist, then of course you might get called that.

Maybe so, but if I keep to myself then what women would approach me? If they approached me it would be "aggressive", which women ought not to be.

That's so wrong I don't even know where to start. I'd have to understand your particular pathology to work on that, and I don't.

Its more so my claims about human pathology. Kind of like how women feel hatred and disgust when a random man they dont approve of flirts with them.

OK, so now you are saying you don't want a relationship because it might bore you. Fine; your choice. Stop complaining about your own choices.

It boils down to this.
If I see a woman I lust for, I am shamed and told I ought to have a relationship with her or else I am an evil sexist and a bad person. Even if her personality bores me, I must not lust. Meanwhile, if I do fall in love with a woman I can relate to, I am usually called a creep and told I ought not to fall in love with a person like that.
Meanwhile, females can love and lust to their hearts content, and get shining praise from the audience.

 

[gamelord]

I will give you two examples.

One is Dan. He's 55. He runs marathons and is a skydiver. He's happily married.
Another is Cy. He's about 30. He is morbidly obese and complains about how women don't like him. (I hear about this because he is often in the break room complaining about this.)

Dan is much, much healthier than Cy. THAT is obvious to anyone who is sane.

Again, in general, you are wrong. There are, of course, immature women, just as there are immature men. These are in the minority.

You are taking fringe anecdotes to prove a point. Nope.

In general old are less healthy than young.

Immature women are not in the minority, at least not in America. Maybe in other countries it is so.