Trumplicans?

Discussion in 'Politics' started by wegs, Jun 9, 2019.

  1. wegs Matter and Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

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    Coworkers of mine are Republicans and they didn’t vote for Trump and won’t. Some of my friends are Republicans, but hate Trump and didn’t vote for him.

    Theory debunked?
     
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  3. parmalee peripatetic artisan Valued Senior Member

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    Even so, does it really matter? Without the numbers, these voters are entirely powerless. So, effectively: ALL Republican elected officials = Trump.

    I concede that such voters do, in fact, exist--whether by virtue of ignorance which is inexcusable, or stubbornness, i.e., beholden to certain ideals which have essentially been non-existent among Republicans for nearly five decades, or cognitive impairment (we can't ignore the other side of the bell curve)--but their voices are not echoed by their elected officials. So I'm not even sure what it means to be a Republican who does not, in any way, support Trump.

    Debating the particulars of when (or if, for those living in a bubble) we've crossed the Rubicon seems a pointless exercise, IMHO, but... I think now would certainly be the time for any Republican who truly does not support Trump to acknowledge, lacking the numbers--bigly, the utter futility of being a Republican who does not support Trump.
     
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  5. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Someone who believes in Republican ideals (many of which I support) but thinks Trump is a criminal who is unfit to be president.

    Just because you dislike someone does not mean that you should believe the opposite of what they do. As an example, Trump supports space exploration. Must everyone who objects to Trump now oppose space exploration?

    Or a more partisan example. Let's say the next democratic president turns out to be a bigger criminal than Trump. Must you become a republican?
     
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  7. parmalee peripatetic artisan Valued Senior Member

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    OK, so these Republican voters who don't support Trump simply don't vote? I mean, who are they gonna vote for, when there isn't a single Republican politician who doesn't support Trump? And keep in mind: their talk don't mean shit, it's only their actions that have consequences.
     
  8. parmalee peripatetic artisan Valued Senior Member

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    Also:
    I cannot figure out what, if anything, this has to do with anything that I said.

    Or this, for that matter.
     
  9. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Some do, some don't.
    There are far more candidates in an election than the president. (Or even senators and representatives for that matter.)
    You said you were unsure what it meant to be a Republican who doesn't support Trump. I gave you a few examples. One example was a Republican who supported Republican planks but does not support Trump, even if Trump supports many of them.

    As another example, consider a Democrat who did not support Anthony Weiner (a man who sent pornographic pictures to a 15 year old) before he sent those pictures. Would you be confused by that? Would you wonder what it meant to be a democrat in Weiner's district who did not support Weiner?
     
  10. parmalee peripatetic artisan Valued Senior Member

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    Name one who opposes Trump--with their actions.
     
  11. parmalee peripatetic artisan Valued Senior Member

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    Point being... Well first, apart from vulgarity, I do not see any real functional differences between Trump and any other Republican, but I'll set that aside for now.

    When there is not a single Republican elected representative who opposes Trump, what does it mean to be a Republican who opposes Trump? Isn't that pretty much the equivalent of saying, "I'm a Republican who is not a Republican?"

    For it to be meaningful, oughtn't a Republican who opposes Trump be actively taking out any and all Republicans who do not? And interpret "taking out" however you please, as it is abundantly clear that ALL elected Republicans are just fine with the notion of "taking out" US citizens--whether or not that involves, say, guns, well, who knows? I'm not the one who said it. And so, these alleged "Republicans who oppose Trump" need to take out Mitch McConnell, they need to take out Lindsey Graham, and they especially need to take out Donald Trump, and all the rest, right?
     
  12. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Joe Walsh. Need another one? Bill Weld.
     
  13. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    A republican who supports his party's planks but does not support Trump.

    Not sure why you are having trouble with this. Do you support Anthony Weiner?

    So they are not republicans because they don't do what democrats want them to do? An odd definition to be sure.
     
  14. parmalee peripatetic artisan Valued Senior Member

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    Joe "I'm grabbing my musket!" Walsh?
    But among elected representatives, there are scarcely any--perhaps a handful, at most. If even that. And Joe Walsh is certifiably insane, as per above.

    No, they are Republicans, who for all practical purposes, cannot vote Republican--because, again, apart from a handful at the absolute most, there aren't any Republican politicians who do not support Trump. And people like Romney, who talks out of his ass but doesn't act in accordance, don't really count here. In some respects, they're even worse than McConnell--at least you know what you're getting with him.
     
  15. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Yes - and Bill Weld.
    No, he's not. He's pretty out there - but so is "the world is going to end in 12 years if we don't address climate change" woman and "women's bodies shut down pregnancy when they are raped" man. And he's certainly not worse than Trump.
    Again, they can vote republican without supporting Trump.

    I have voted for politicians who were anti-nuclear, because I thought their other positions on healthcare, renewable energy, immigration and taxation made sense. That does not make me anti-nuclear.
    I have voted for politicians who were pro-spending, because I thought their other positions made sense. That does not make me any less opposed to massive deficits.
     
  16. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    No, I didn't.
    Reading comprehension - you should take warning: in your normal life, your job etc, you don't make mistakes like that. (You'd get fired). You are not a naturally stupid person: what happened?

    You have lost track of a quite simple argument, mistook its direction of implication in a very basic and elementary way, and thereby posted a familiar form of childish, playground, wingnut misapprehension - a characteristic feature of the media feed from the familiar sources of fascist propaganda, right down to the ubiquitous Republican vocabulary of reactionary accusation and personal attack ("admitted", etc).

    (That form most often shows up - many times on this forum in response to me, for example - in the assumption that opposing the Republican horrorshow implies favoring Democrats, supporting Democratic politicians, siding with "the Democrats", etc. One of you guys even claimed that I had been posting that the Democrats had no flaws, were some kind of saintly folks riding in on a (this is a quote) "white horse" to save the day. )


    Short version: I don't "hate" Republicans, I don't confuse them with "conservatives", I don't think Democratic politicians are faultless or even necessarily very good, I don't think Republicans and Democrats comprise "both sides" of anything, and I have never posted anything a minimally competent reader in good faith could mistake for such opinions. Intellectual incompetence or bad faith? Take your pick - you can't do anything about either one, apparently. You made that mistake even with the focus directly on the exact issue - obliviousness has fewer more flagrant illustrations.

    Still need an explanation? Still demanding other people put effort into persuading you to quit being wrong in dumb ways? Still incapable of correcting your own identified errors, even the simple ones? Ok, I'll bite once:

    ->Trump did not lose any Republican support when he gained the entire voting base of that Party - he just didn't get the votes of the nonvoters. <-

    He won't get the votes of nonvoters this time either. But he will benefit from the support of the Republican Party - all of it, his fans and supposed foes alike, voters and nonvoters both. (Look at the latest Senate vote - to exclude witnesses and evidence from a trial. Opposition to Trump needed four Republican Senators - just four - to perform one act of opposition - just one - to Trump. No way. )

    No opposition to Trump is available within the Republican Party. The Republican Party is unified in support of Trump - financing, leadership, politicians, media operations, and voting base entire.
    Two people who support the Party that supports Trump. Meanwhile, no faction in that Party supports them - for example, they have no chance at the votes of those 13 million fantasy Republicans you imagine oppose Trump. In a lot of Republican States, they cannot even get their names on a primary ballot.
    No, they can't.

    The entire Republican Party supports Trump, and adding to its power and influence adds to the support of Trump.
    Trump=Republican; Republican=Trump.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2020
  17. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Not sure. When did you lose the ability to do math? It's really a pretty basic skill.
    What sort of job do you have that requires no math skills? Personal injury lawyer, perhaps?
    Even the republicans who voted against him? Fascinating. What other sorts of cognitive dissonance do you maintain in your daily life?
     
  18. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    30,994
    You probably mean arithmetic.
    It's irrelevant anyway. It doesn't matter whether you screwed up the math or the arithmetic - Garbage in garbage out.
    If they support the Republican Party, sure.
    Trivial fringe of individuals anyway, with no status or influence within the Party. What lies behind your misreading of simple posts - Reading comprehension problems again?
    Trump=Republican; Republican=Trump. That is observed and obvious physical reality - the basis of cognition, in the real world.
     
  19. parmalee peripatetic artisan Valued Senior Member

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    • Inappropriate language in this post has been starred out (*). Please avoid gratuitous use of such langage on this forum.
    I'm not inclined towards giving people the benefit of the doubt when they say things like, "I'm gonna git my gun if Trump don't win!" Sure, he probably did not intend that literally; rather, he meant something along these lines, "I'm gonna be fuckin' pissed if that b**** or that n***** wins!" Too presumptuous of me? Really?! Ought I be more understanding towards a politician who threatens violence if his rapist buddy doesn't win?

    And how exactly do they do that when their only choices always support Trump?

    C'mon, there's compromise and there's... selling your freaking soul.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 3, 2020
  20. wegs Matter and Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

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    I’m not personally speaking of politicians but regular every day people who identify as Republicans, but detest Trump.

    Mitt Romney is a Republican politician though who seems to not be a Trumplican, and I wonder how many others agree with him but are too afraid to stand against Trump. We can’t read people’s minds; many probably feel bullied by Trump.
     
  21. parmalee peripatetic artisan Valued Senior Member

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    Here's Mitt on the Mueller Report:

    “I have now read the redacted Mueller report and offer my personal reaction.

    It is good news that there was insufficient evidence to charge the President of the United States with having conspired with a foreign adversary or with having obstructed justice. The alternative would have taken us through a wrenching process with the potential for constitutional crisis. The business of government can move on.

    “Even so, I am sickened at the extent and pervasiveness of dishonesty and misdirection by individuals in the highest office of the land, including the President. I am also appalled that, among other things, fellow citizens working in a campaign for president welcomed help from Russia—including information that had been illegally obtained; that none of them acted to inform American law enforcement; and that the campaign chairman was actively promoting Russian interests in Ukraine.

    “Reading the report is a sobering revelation of how far we have strayed from the aspirations and principles of the founders.”


    (Bolding mine.)

    See what he did there? Mitt speak with forked tongue. Classic Romney. I'm guessing he read a lot of DC comics at some point in his life. In that Netflix doc from a couple years back, there was a scene in which he is shown wearing heavy winter gloves with duct tape on the tears--his wife even remarks upon this. I guarantee you: he did that just for the cameras.
     
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  22. parmalee peripatetic artisan Valued Senior Member

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    Setting aside the Trump aspect for a moment, here's something I've always been curious about: posters have stated that they know Republicans... How? Are you talking about neighbors, relatives, coworkers, and such? Or people whom you choose to know?

    This probably comes across as a stupid or naive question, but I'm fine with that, because I am genuinely curious. I honestly don't know any Republicans. And this is in no way a consequence of willful exclusion; rather, it's simply that Republicans are naturally underrepresented among the sorts* of people with whom I consort. *"sorts" here referring to occupations, "lifestyles" and suchlike.

    What tenets of the modern Republican party do they support? I can understand, say, an "Eisenhower Republican"--that ain't me, but I can at least understand it. But the modern Republican party is not that, and I honestly can't think of a single tenet of the modern Republican that is not wholly repugnant--or just plain batshit crazy--to me, frankly.
     
  23. wegs Matter and Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

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    ^^ A few friends and coworkers for me, who I know are Republicans but don’t support Trump, to answer your question. They may like some of his policies that are construed as Republican, but they don’t like his approach toward those policies. (And his sexist, racist behaviors that they feel are not Republican values)

    This has been what I’ve taken from brief conversations about Trump, but I haven’t interrogated them or taken a deep dive into their views.
     

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