Trumping Toward War: The United States, American Conservatism, and Iran

[Bob-a-builder]

Putin called off the attacks because Russia uses a lot of Iranian oil.

At Iceaura,

Caveat: Trump may not have known the planes were in the air, or realized how close he came to having launched the assault; we have no way of telling how much Trump actually knows about military matters.)

We know he does not listen to generals who are informed by a network of spies and intelligence agencies. James bond could uncover a new plot from Goldfinger and Trump would not even hear it because he "Knows more than any general".

He knows Russia did not attack the election and Mueller has fabricated evidence because Putin told him so.. and he cannot see any reason Putin would lie.

Whether or not America starts a new war in the middle east depends entirety upon the whims of the worst businessman in the history of mankind. I would trust Pee Wee Herman to make a far greater president because at least Pee Wee Herman earned his fame and fortune. (Pee Wee is a heavily underrated actor from the 1990's if anyone does not know).

It seems nonsensical to try to attach rhyme or reason to Trumps mind.

 

[sculptor]

Putin called off the attacks ...
.

darned nice of Vladimir Vladimirovich

 

[Bells]

Just a coincidence of timing. https://abcnews.go.com/International/putin-warns-us-iran-annual-call-show/story?id=63833096 And Carlson of course, on TV somewhere.

Trump canceled the thing when the planes were in the air. Something changed his mind, and that rapidly.

(Caveat: Trump may not have known the planes were in the air, or realized how close he came to having launched the assault; we have no way of telling how much Trump actually knows about military matters.)

Or he was bluffing and none of it took place at all.

Or it shows a case of gross incompetence..

Or someone intervened...

Because none of it makes sense.

And speaking of not making sense..

Quantum Quack

and did it have anything to do with the timing of the massive Oil Refinery explosion in Philadelphia? Apparently around 4am local Phily time. ( allow about 60 minutes for the White house to be informed)

love to see an actual exact time line of events...
tried googling but got nothing but vagaries.

especially whether the oil refinery explosion occurred after or before the planes turned back. ( not trumps decision as that is all over the place...)

and reported escalated Iranian hacking attempts would be handy as well.
Obviously I am concerned that Iran may be involved but there is a possibility that OIL generally is the target using Iran as a patsy.

(Climate change activism may have just got nasty)

This issue is confusing enough on its own.

It does not need conspiracies thrown into its lot.

There is no mention of foul play. Stop with the crazy conspiracies about the oil refinery explosion and stop with the even crazier conspiracy theories inferring "climate change activism" apparently doing something something to point the finger at Iran. You have absolutely no proof of any of this and you are just throwing this in there to change the topic..

You have a history of this behaviour.

Cease and desist. Enough.

 

[Quantum Quack]

deleted as off topic

 

[Quantum Quack]

Or he was bluffing and none of it took place at all.

Or it shows a case of gross incompetence..

Or someone intervened...

Because none of it makes sense.

And speaking of not making sense..

Quantum Quack



This issue is confusing enough on its own.

It does not need conspiracies thrown into its lot.

There is no mention of foul play. Stop with the crazy conspiracies about the oil refinery explosion and stop with the even crazier conspiracy theories inferring "climate change activism" apparently doing something something to point the finger at Iran. You have absolutely no proof of any of this and you are just throwing this in there to change the topic..

You have a history of this behaviour.

Cease and desist. Enough.

As this thread is all about speculation, care to contribute some...?

 

[Bells]

As this thread is all about speculation, care to contribute some...?

I believe I already did.

I think he was bluffing. Because no one would be so stupid as to show their hands that quickly and badly. The President of the United States, with a "rebuilt" armed forces, just told the world he blinked. And Iran in response, executed someone they claim was a US spy. Trump is still blinking..

Alternatively, the level of incompetence is exceptionally high.

Because when the targets would be chosen, collateral damage would be in the reports to Trump. His excuse that he asked for how many would be killed and canned the raid then and there does not make any sense. Millions of dollars spent to plan and begin the strike (planes were in the air already, ships moved into position, etc) and he cancels it for 150 dead? Because he thought to ask about that then and there? No one had reported the risk of casualties beforehand? And he apparently cared so much about these people that he called off the raid? We are talking about the same guy who has no issues with locking little kids in cages for crossing the border illegally...

I think it was the first option. I think he is bluffing and lying. I think he has watched too much of The West Wing (particularly Season 1, episode 3).. And I think he is doing it to give the image of a US military willing to do whatever he orders and that he really is benevolent, but will continue to threaten and bully.. Supposedly Iran will fear that Trump really can just launch at any time and essentially cease and desist.

Instead, he's just come across as grossly incompetent.

 

[Quantum Quack]

His excuse that he asked for how many would be killed and canned the raid then and there does not make any sense.

Didn't he say something along the lines that the punishment for shooting down the drone was not proportionate to the act of shooting down an unarmed drone?
It doesn't challenge your point(s), but it may become an important detail later.

Because when the targets would be chosen, collateral damage would be in the reports to Trump. His excuse that he asked for how many would be killed and canned the raid then and there does not make any sense. Millions of dollars spent to plan and begin the strike (planes were in the air already, ships moved into position, etc) and he cancels it for 150 dead? Because he thought to ask about that then and there? No one had reported the risk of casualties beforehand? And he apparently cared so much about these people that he called off the raid? We are talking about the same guy who has no issues with locking little kids in cages for crossing the border illegally...

Yes, and the death of untold thousands of civilians in Raqqa in his quest to gain political points by defeating rather than degrading Daesh ISIL on the border between Syria and Iraq has no relevant meaning to him.

So you are correct IMO... It makes no sense.....to worry about 150 casualties when he is threatening to obliterate an entire nation in a "way never seen before".

 

[Quantum Quack]

It seems nonsensical to try to attach rhyme or reason to Trumps mind.

there is reason, but not the reasoning you would apply to a emotionally and mentally challenged POTUS.
His primary motivation would be his vanity, his historical legacy IMO.
"I don't want to be known as the president who went to war killing millions because an unmanned drone was shot down." sort of thinking. The concern being not for the death of millions but more with the vanity associated with his historical legacy...

 

[iceaura]

The guy who rigged the election?

Putin did not rig the election. The Republican Party did more rigging than Putin.

As far as Trump "bluffing" - coming in high and hard is standard business negotiating, and organized crime is a business.
In the world of business, where one can hire lawyers for protection, the possibility of a mistake by your opponents landing you in a deal you never wanted and never signed and never saw coming is remote.

 

[Tiassa]

Didn't he say something along the lines that the punishment for shooting down the drone was not proportionate to the act of shooting down an unarmed drone?
It doesn't challenge your point(s), but it may become an important detail later.

It was an important detail when he said it:

(1) Trump was catching up to largely universal criticism about disproportion.

(2) Iran called his bluff, even asserting to have technical data to prove the drone's location.

(3) The only way Trump didn't have some idea of the casualty estimate prior to allegedly being inspired to ask is if he wasn't listening to anything anyone was telling him.​

A dose in re American quackery: For years, conservatives have stood on pretenses of patriotism, law and order, and support for the instruments of authority, such as military and police. Except, if we check the detail, it's a bit different story. Conservatives pretend police cannot do their jobs without lying; when it comes to NRA fever, it is conservatives, not liberals, expecting police and military to betray their oaths and follow some dumbassed president to martial tyranny; conservatives stir up wars for no good reason.

And look at what the Trump administration has done: Trash the FBI and U.S. Attorneys, deliberately wreck the reputation of the Office of the Attorney General of the United States; not content to assail and wound merely the Department of Justice, they have also harrowed Foggy Bottom, leaving the State Department on perpetually uncertain footing and hindering their ability to exercise our prestige and necessity in the world community; but wait, don't stop yet, because they have retasked the Department of Homeland Security as the Concentration Authority, and if that sounds like some sort of sick joke, we might consider the utility of sending Air Marshalls and TSA airport security to the border.

Virtually everything awful that conservatives screeched and accused over the last handful of decades has come true in the Trump adminstration; and therein lies the swindle, this really is what they've wanted the whole time, and when they would complain and weep their crocodile tears about being called racist or misogynist or supremacist, well, yeah, what did we expect?

Of all the things we might criticize our military brass for, being so goddamned stupid that Donald fucking Trump should have to remind them to calculate the battle damage projection on collateral damage just isn't on the list; if they were that dumb, we couldn't pull off the rest of the stunning shitshow we Americans can put on.

What it comes down to, in Trumpspeak, is that the President was told in no uncertain terms that blowing the shit out of something with that kind of collateral risk would make him very unpopular, and the elitists he hates so much for laughing at him would double over and fall out of their chairs, and he would be taking a chance on everything he ever said about how respected he is being seen as a lie. The key, we've learned from various leaks and comments over the term, is the old trope about making him think it's his idea. Now, virtually any other president could have made the point that upon consultation with the people retained to consult in those moments, it was decided that following this route would be disproportionate, overstated, and excessively dangerous. Not Trump, though; he so needs to be in seen as the only authority that he painted his military leaders to look so incompetent that they really ought to be replaced.

Honestly, if they're that bad, why would he leave them on the job?

That is what doesn't make sense about his excuse; what he just told the world is that the American military is incompetent through and through.

And that's not quite to shrug and say, so much for conservatives and patriotism; we've kind of known, for decades.

 

[Bowser]

Yep, I suppose a war would have been better. For whatever reason, we're not killing each other at the moment.

 

[iceaura]

For whatever reason, we're not killing each other at the moment.

We are.
The US is imposing sanctions and running cyberattacks and financing proxies and so forth that are killing Iranians.

 

[Quantum Quack]

A human perspective (Australia):
So Mohammad, an asylum seeker from Iran, a refugee for over over 6 years of detention/internment camp experience, and also my tenant, renting a small room to call home, is sitting in front of the TV and watching and listening to Trump tell the world how the USA is going to obliterate IRAN in a way never before seen wiping out his entire family. Expecting that he will be rounded up and placed in isolation camps if the USA declares war on IRAN because of Australia's commitment to the USA.

What do you think is his reaction to Trumps threat?

How many million terrorists is the USA hoping to create?

 

[CptBork]

Whether or not America starts a new war in the middle east depends entirety upon the whims of the worst businessman in the history of mankind. I would trust Pee Wee Herman to make a far greater president because at least Pee Wee Herman earned his fame and fortune. (Pee Wee is a heavily underrated actor from the 1990's if anyone does not know).

"Pee Wee Goes to the White House" would make for an awesome movie. He'd ride into Iran all by himself on a bicycle with everyone saying he's absolutely nuts, and come back out with all the mullahs drunk and hoisting him on their shoulders 2 hours later. Then he'd order a giant gumball dropped on them from a B-52.

 

[Bob-a-builder]

A human perspective (Australia):
So Mohammad, an asylum seeker from Iran, a refugee for over over 6 years of detention/internment camp experience, and also my tenant, renting a small room to call home, is sitting in front of the TV and watching and listening to Trump tell the world how the USA is going to obliterate IRAN in a way never before seen wiping out his entire family. Expecting that he will be rounded up and placed in isolation camps if the USA declares war on IRAN because of Australia's commitment to the USA.

What do you think is his reaction to Trumps threat?

How many million terrorists is the USA hoping to create?

Trump obviously would benefit from the creation of both Terrorists and Refugees as that fits with his scaremongering. Example: By metering the number of asylum seekers at legal ports of entry he forces those in line to get across using other means. He has increased the border crises appearances from doing that alone. However; he has also cut humanitarian aid to countries like Venezuela and has refused to intervene in a situation an Intelligent president might intervene if only to stop the need for the countries inhabitants to flee.

Fox News seems to run America which is scary because they are not protected by "Secret Service". If N.Koreas kidnapped Sean Hannity's family and told him to attack Iran... then Sean Hannity would give the order to attack Iran. Instant war. American has some serious woes at the moment.

News matters: What do you call a Domestic Terrorist group helping Republicans ? A Militia. There is currently a Republican Senator on the lam who has threatened to kill police if apprehended? WTF! I suggest police shoot him on sight. He said "Send Bachelors" so his murderous intent is clear.

As far as your roommate goes. He should be worried. I think every American has cause to worry with that president and its populace which seems to be too dumb to vote. Florida is apparently very "anti-climate change" which is almost funny as it is one state that could one day be entirely under water. ENTIRELY! Only ice keeps it above water. Let's hope it stays.

The simple solution to the Iran Crisis is if they would send Trump a nice letter with a candy bar stapled to it. Tell Trump he is very fit and handsome and boom. Trump would hand them nuclear armament technology. Just like they did with Saudi Arabia for helping Kushners 666. Hey.. the Saudis bailed out my Son-in-Law.. Let's give them all our nuclear knowledge as a reward.

The worst businessman in the history of mankind is running America. Forbes and many suggest he should be worth $10B more had he simply left his known inheritance in any bank 34 years ago. $10B/34years/365days=$805k+ DAILY FLUSHED DOWN TOILET. (equivalent of).

I do not understand Republican mindsets. Especially the leaders.

Think on this:
Trump Legacy: Currently not a single soldier, Ice agent, FBI member, EPA staff, Child torturer, or white house butler can say a single thing against Donald Trump without risking their job. Donald Trump (the worst businessman in all of history and war coward) is 100% in charge of all of them. They risk their jobs if they speak out and they will (99% chance) get fired or put out of the way.

BUT.............. One day (Unless he decides to start a Thermonuclear war and start civilization over by mating with his daughter in a bunker) Trump will no longer be the bosses of these people. What then?

Is it not obvious that when Trump is no longer their boss we will hear story after story after story, of atrocity after atrocity after atrocity. Committed by Trump and the Republicans. We hear many now. That is not even a piece of what is to come once white house staffers/FBI/CIA/EPA/ICE/etc., etc., etc.. have their gags removed. How many currently working in Homeland security are currently screaming themselves to sleep at night knowing if they speak out their jobs will also vanish.

So..Trump-ism will be followed by Trump hatred. Big time. I predict even Ivanka, Eric and Junior himself will need to flee America. Someone spit on Eric yesterday. Imagine when the public realizes what an ass he is.. and I'm speaking of the 40% that need a Netflix movie to teach them.

I would not want the last name "Trump" in a few years. Not unless I wished to be brutally stabbed in an alley and spit upon (they are doing the spitting already).

The "Trump Legacy" will not be what those morons expect... at all. Donald Junior thinks he will be President someday.. OMFG! What an idiot. The writing is on the wall.

On the bright side (if there is any). At least a lot of Partisan buffoonery and serious problems with the constitution have been discovered. Future presidents can shore up the blanket rights of a president to hold public workers and children hostage for negotiations. A wall is idiotic. Anyone with a $25 passport can bypass any wall with a claim they want to visit Disneyland. Any teenage girl can google what herbs cause a dangerous miscarriage in 2 minutes.. even if Dirty dancing taught republicans back room clinics arise in wakes of banning.

I live in Canada. We live 3+ years longer than Americans on average. Mexico will soon pass American lifespans due to their free healthcare. American Education is lowest in the G5 countries. By far. It helps Republicans to keep America too dumb to vote.

America can't even become metric or ditch pennies. They have some issues. Their government is seriously broken.

This week it is barring legislation protecting against Russian interference. Next week it will be torturing infants and toddlers as negotiation tactics (Oh wait; that is also this week).

Canada has had free healthcare for over half a century already. Think on that for the next 50 years. I have never waited longer than 30 minutes in a doctors office. My wife just sprained her ankle last week and had very fast emergency care and xrays with a follow up appointment yesterday

 

[spidergoat]

Starting an attack and then calling it off could be a feint, after all we are cyberattacking Iran. Which I would call an act of war.

 

[Bob-a-builder]

Starting an attack and then calling it off could be a feint, after all we are cyberattacking Iran. Which I would call an act of war.

That might imply planning or intelligence from the current administration. I'm surprised when I see the American President walking upright.

I can recall Trump tweeting to Comey, "You better hope that conversation was not on tape". The media went wild with Trumps genius. Suggesting he was smart enough to imply he had the conversation on tape.

I thought the reverse. Trump had allegedly made improper comments to the head of the FBI who sometimes use things like recording devices. I think he was afraid comey taped him. But... people think he is a mastermind. The worst businessman in the history of mankind (literally - he flushed the equivalent of over $805000 daily for over 34 years) is considered a genius by 40% of America.

 

[Neddy Bate]

As a public service, I am re-posting Bob-a-builder's post #47 which was formatted imporperly by the forum software:

--------------------

"Bob-a-builder" said:

I do not believe the white house has any rhyme or reason.

Something is wrong with American Intelligence. Many are too dumb too vote.

Example a: 35% of America thinks "a wall" is clever. They must be very stupid to not realize any Mexican can bypass it and border agents with a simple $25 passport. Do they not realize Mexico and South Americans actually have governments that issue passports or do they think they all live in cages?

I can tell you where the "caravan" went. They all broke off as they neared the border and crossed legally. They just pretended they were visiting Disneyland.

How would a Democrat sneak into Mexico? They would simply get off their cruise ship in Acapulco and never return. A Republican would run through the desert in his underwear dodging border patrols. There have been smarter folk.

Example b: Even republicans educated entirely by sitcoms should learn from movies like "Dirty Dancing" that banning abortions only makes backroom clinics kill more American daughters. That was before internet (internet is a thing now (Google it if republican)). Today a girl can google what herbs can cause a dangerous miscarriage in less than 4 minutes if she types slow.

Example c: They are still not metric

Example d: They still use pennies

Example e: They don't believe in spies. James Bond himself could learn of a plot that Goldfinger was about to launch a sophisticated attack. Yet they have a president who "Knows more than the generals" (according to him), so every spy reporting to a general is just endangering himself for fun and the neat toys.
Take a few more years off James Bond. We'll tell you when to come back.

Example f: Healthcare... Mexico has better healthcare. Americans die years younger on average than they do in Canada. Years.
Canada has had entirely free healthcare for over half a century. Think on that for the next 50 years.

Example g: Their water supply is tainted: Americans murder each other at an incredible rate. If I just cross the border into the USA my odds of getting murdered multiply by six (6). I'm not blaming guns. It is probably just tainted water or marrying cousins.

Donald Trump is so dumb he bankrupted a casino... How do you bankrupt a casino?
Donald Trump then bankrupted a few more casinos. How can you lose with casinos?

Had Trump left his money in any bank like a retarded blind child might do, his 200Million he inherited and known wealth of 1985 would have grown similar to Nasdaq, dow S&P 500.. It would have grown upwards of 13 million according to Forbes/Google, etc.

That means he would be worth more than $10 BILLION more than he is today.

That means (if math correct) he should be worth at least $10 BILLION more.
So.. If he should be worth $10 billion more based upon known 1985 wealth and we do the math... How much has he lost daily?

10 billion divided by 34 years divided again by 365 days in a year...

Wow! That clown has lost the equivalent of over $805 000.00 DAILY (equivalent).

That makes him the absolute worst businessman in the history of mankind... literally. Unless anyone can name a single businessman in history who has lost the same equivalents.

So... Did trump start an attack?... Did Trump not start an attack?

I doubt even he knows for sure.

Robert Mueller says Russia attacked, Trump says he asked Putin if he attacked and Putin apparently said no. He said he could see no reason why they would (sorry James Bond.. go home for a few years).

Trump bankrupted an entire football league.

Tour de Trump failed. Trump airlines failed, Trump steaks failed, trump vodka failed, trump internet failed, casinos.

OH! This one is funny. Trump started a mortgage company right before real estate bubble collapsed (See IDIOT") and then lost money. He CLAIMED he should not have to repay his $40 Million loan (Can't make this stuff up) unless he made money. True story.

He even had "Trump the board game" so you could lose as bigly as him at home.

He is so bad at business he is not even allowed to run his own company. He licensed his name more than built anything lately.

So... WOW!

Discussing American politics like it had aim or purpose almost seems like a thought experiment of futility.

It feels like watching a train wreck in slow motion. You know it is causing deaths and chaos but its hard to look away.

The dumbest businessman in the history of mankind is steering America solely on his impulses (James Bond went home).

 

[RainbowSingularity]

And look at what the Trump administration has done: Trash the FBI and U.S. Attorneys, deliberately wreck the reputation of the Office of the Attorney General of the United States; not content to assail and wound merely the Department of Justice,

given the likelihood that the drone was more than likely regularly flown in Iranian air space, it was just a matter of timing.

i imagine being able to find pieces of a usa drone would be the middle east version of winning the world super lottery

 

[Schmelzer]

Any comments about Bolton fired?

My personal guess is that Bolton was hired to play the bad cop against Venezuela and Iran. Now Trump can start playing the dove and add Maduro and Rouhani after Kim to the list of his best friends. Even most of the hawks are happy that no open war has been started (at least those associated with the military, who know that both wars would, like Vietnam, unwinnable for the US) and will not object seriously.

Nice timing, enough time to reach something peaceful on the world stage before the elections. During the elections, he will play the dove part, leaving the hawk part to the Dems.