Sex offenders? Can we trust?

[Bells]

Bells, I have some idea what kind of studies and information you have bought into, and I think that they are biased and presented by groups that have a much greater interest in controlling humans than they do in the well-being of children. Granted, a lot of them probably think that it is in humanity's best interest to be controlled that way.

I have seen first hand the kind of damage sexual abuse can do to a child and what it can do when that child grows up and becomes an adult. My best friend through high school was sexually abused as a small child by her step father. She killed herself while we were still at university. It was not because of how her father reacted when he found out. I think, it was more to do with the fact her mother did nothing and allowed it to continue, looking away and ignoring her daughter's plight. It was the lack of "hysteria" and anger on her mother's part that drove her into the depth of depression, something that stayed with her through her teens until she finally killed herself.

So frankly, your position on this is obscene, to say the least. How you could actually say that a child can benefit from "sexual touching" is, frankly, beyond me. It is not only in humanity's best interest to stop and attempt to prevent this kind of abuse from occurring, most importantly, it is in the child's best interest. The only interest served in treating child abusers as harshly as society does is in the interest of the children, potential victims who find themselves permanently scarred by the actions of a perverted individual.

Do you honestly think a 5 year old child is not scarred or damaged in any way after he/she has been sexually molested? Do you think it is the parents who make up the damage or damage the child when they react with "hysteria"? In short, you are blaming the parents instead of the pedophile who raped or abused the child. You are blaming the 'system', because you have some warped view that they are attempting to feed the "hysteria" to make a quick buck. Do you know why sexual abuse is right up there on the 'horrible list' for most parents? It is because it is one of those things that can alter a child's persona, damage them so terribly mentally that they may never recover from it. It can alter their perception of others to such an extent, that they can never find happiness in life, not just in themselves but in contact with others. In short, sexual abuse takes away the child, leaving behind a damaged and shattered individual who no longer trusts those he/she should be able to trust.

It seems to me that feeling that being raped is worse than being beaten is because of anti-sexuality at least as much as because of the deed. Worse, if a person actually feels that he or she was not raped but had consensual sex, it is very damaging for people to go to that person and say that they were damaged because that sex was illegal. This kind of damage is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Do you know what a self-fulfilling prophecy is, Bells?

As a woman, if I had to choose, I would choose being beaten over being raped. Not because of your so called 'anti-sexuality' notions of society, but because sex is something that is personal and should never be associated with hatred and pain. Sex should never result in someone feeling afraid for the rest of their lives, scarring them to the point where it becomes something that is fearful.

I don't know what I'm going to do with all this. "Science" in this case is based on rumor, hearsay, and who has the political pull. The habit of referring to statutory rape as simply "rape" started at a particular point in time that I remember, when some ambitious prosecutor said that word that way at a particular time on a news segment and it gave me that sinking feeling when I knew that something evil had been injected into the world of human thought, that would stick and burn and destroy a lot of people before it had run its course. It's just button-pushing. No real thought goes into this.

Do you think a 5 year old can consent to sex? How about a 10 year old? 12? 13? Do you know what pedophiles do with their victims? They prime them first. Make them think they are falling in love and that the only way to show that love is to have sex. So tell me, at what age can a child give consent and have full understanding of what they are consenting to?

 

[Asguard]

bells thats the problem, at what age CAN someone concent?

I have known 30 year olds who i wouldnt trust to use a ketle let alone concent to sex or to medical procidures and i have known people who are quite young who knew exactly what they were doing much younger than i was when i first had a relationship

Unfortuantly the law has to have a cut off and thats where the problem starts

Its also why the concent to medical treatment act is so vague about issues relating to concent and minors because you cant set an age and go "right there before that you are to stupid to know what is in your own best intrests and now your not"

I dont nessarly agree with the statory rape laws for POST pubesants but i DEFINITLY agree with them for PRE pubessants

 

[15ofthe19]

Pinnochio, here's the problem in a nutshell: They call it harmful because of the sex and not because of the damage, physical or mental, that is actually caused to the child. It is a cheap way to get out of actually doing the job that an accuser is morally obligated to do, and that job is to prove his or her case.

A person who accuses someone else of misconduct is often a bad neighbor. They aren't likely to have much character. Accusations are weapons, not intellectual discourse.

So if a five year old is raped, it's the job of the toddler to prove the case in a court of law? I really can't think of anything else to say here that wont get me banned so I'll just leave it at this: It's a good thing, for your sake, that the internet is an anonymous place.

 

[MetaKron]

So if a five year old is raped, it's the job of the toddler to prove the case in a court of law? I really can't think of anything else to say here that wont get me banned so I'll just leave it at this: It's a good thing, for your sake, that the internet is an anonymous place.

Which just goes to prove that you would use your fists to resolve what your knowledge and capacity for reason cannot. This is a common problem among those who use hatred of pedophilia as an excuse for violence. It is one of the biggest reasons I don't believe what you have to say.

Just to use the example you mention, no of course it is not the job of the five year old to prove that he or she was raped. However, it is the job of the prosecutors to prove this, according to the highest standards. Anyone who is even willing to allow other than the highest standards is simply screwing around, and this has happened. People have spent a long time in jail for rapes that never even happened, where there was no physical evidence of violation. To me that it proof that such things are part of a program to demonize natural sexuality. That program has been going on, most often openly, for over a thousand years.

 

[MetaKron]

Bells, in #41, it is not apparent to me that you actually know what my position is. Anyone who has graduated law school should have been able to read my posts in this thread for understanding instead of simply responding to words and phrases that push certain buttons, so please do.

I think that from the start of this thread, and in every other such thread, I have always differentiated between those contacts that the younger person wants and the ones that he or she doesn't want. Your friend must not have wanted those contacts and must not have enjoyed them. Either that or you might be asking me to believe that a person can want sexual contacts, enjoy them, feel that those contacts were life-enhancing, then go off and kill herself. Would you use that bad experience as a reason to assume that underage people never want sexual contact and never enjoy it, with or without the other person being their father? There are people who experience prolonged depression and commit suicide after sexual relationships that you would judge as normal.

There is more than one way to be raped, if the word rape really has much meaning these days. I can argue with reasons that mental rape can include being told all of this stuff about sex being "bad" and how you personally, as a victim of sex, are "damaged" and that these damages will cause you to turn into some kind of leering maniacal sociopath with all-black eyeballs, which we are seeing too much of on television todays on shows like Supernatural and Torchwood. A lot of people would commit suicide if they were led to believe that they would become a psychopathic killer, a rapist, the Antichrist, or a demon from Hell, which is the exact dilemma that one character has on Torchwood (second season, second episode with the character Martha Jones), and a theme that they have done twice in just one season. That's the real problem that a lot of people have when they are exposed to unapproved sexualities. They fear being transformed from a good Christian into something worse.

I see the hypocrisy. People have tried to make me feel ashamed to be alive, but I knew that they were pushing their problems off on me, using me as a human garbage dump and punching bag.

I'm not sure what you think is sick about my position. Let's cover some key points:

Rape of a five year old: Extremely bad but not the end of the world. Treat the child's hurt and avoid all the things that make it worse like treating the child as if it were tainted by something from Hell.

Sexual touching of a five year old: What are we going to define as sexual touching and exactly why? I suppose I might be considered "sick" if I consider this to be an open question and I don't trust the people who think that they have "closed" it. For each age there is touching that is good for that person. Taking away the sense of touch isolates that person and causes emotional pain.

Sex between an adult and a pubescent person, about thirteen and up: Might be no crime at all. Was the primary mode of courtship and marriage for almost all of human history.

I don't equate statutory rape with forcible rape.

I don't believe in age of consent laws.

 

[15ofthe19]

Which just goes to prove that you would use your fists to resolve what your knowledge and capacity for reason cannot. This is a common problem among those who use hatred of pedophilia as an excuse for violence. It is one of the biggest reasons I don't believe what you have to say.

Just to use the example you mention, no of course it is not the job of the five year old to prove that he or she was raped. However, it is the job of the prosecutors to prove this, according to the highest standards. Anyone who is even willing to allow other than the highest standards is simply screwing around, and this has happened. People have spent a long time in jail for rapes that never even happened, where there was no physical evidence of violation. To me that it proof that such things are part of a program to demonize natural sexuality. That program has been going on, most often openly, for over a thousand years.

Who said I would even need my fists to have you cowering in the floor like a whipped dog? I'd say it wouldn't take much more than a cold stare, and you'd be shitting in your pants.

Don't get all fucking mealy mouthed now about due process and try to backtrack. You know exactly what you've been spewing in this thread, and it's despicable. Of course people have been wrongly accused, no one is disputing that, but you're seriously blaming the victim here and if you can't see that you need to go back and re-read the drivel you posted.

How in the bloody hell would you know a thing about what you suggest is "a common problem who use hatred of pedophilia as an excuse for violence.." unless you had first hand experience? Is there something you need to share?

 

[MetaKron]

15 of 19, I can but hope that the moderator will choose to delete your rather low quality post (#46) rather than close the thread. I don't think that you have the slightest idea what I have been "spewing" in this thread and I wish that you would provide more intelligent replies. This is a serious subject even if you and many people on your side are difficult to take seriously.

I know what is a common problem for people who use hatred of pedophilia as an excuse because anyone who observes human behavior and anyone who can read can't bloody miss it.

 

[15ofthe19]

Yeah, Tiassa will probably due some editing/deleting. Such is the way of the Mod these days, but whatever happens, your posts make my skin crawl, and I'm not easily creeped out. You're one sick puppy.

You might have a point, hidden somewhere beneath all the bullshit rationalizing pederast behavior, but you would be wise to find a better way to explain yourself, lest you be thought of a pedophile yourself. Let's just say your justifications are a bit over the top, at best.

You keep parroting some conspiracy idea that some unseen force wants to demonize sex, but even if that were so, how do you get from there, to justifying or rationalizing sexual abuse of a minor child?

 

[MetaKron]

Yeah, Tiassa will probably due some editing/deleting. Such is the way of the Mod these days, but whatever happens, your posts make my skin crawl, and I'm not easily creeped out. You're one sick puppy.

You might have a point, hidden somewhere beneath all the bullshit rationalizing pederast behavior, but you would be wise to find a better way to explain yourself, lest you be thought of a pedophile yourself. Let's just say your justifications are a bit over the top, at best.

You keep parroting some conspiracy idea that some unseen force wants to demonize sex, but even if that were so, how do you get from there, to justifying or rationalizing sexual abuse of a minor child?

If you don't know about the conspiracy to demonize sex, you don't know the subject. I'm glad that I make your skin crawl because people like you who advocate violence make me want to scream and climb the walls. Nothing that you have said here has proven to me that your thing is anything but another excuse for violence.

 

[15ofthe19]

If you don't know about the conspiracy to demonize sex, you don't know the subject. I'm glad that I make your skin crawl because people like you who advocate violence make me want to scream and climb the walls. Nothing that you have said here has proven to me that your thing is anything but another excuse for violence.

I don't think anything violent is necessary here. A simple search of your hard drive by the local cops would most likely take care of the situation.

I don't argue that there are those who would demonize sex. Undoubtedly there are, and those people are wrong, but you are not making an effective argument against those people. Your misguided attempt to counter them is really more offensive than effective.

 

[Tiassa]

Mod Hat - Just a couple notes

Mod Hat — Just a couple notes

Just a couple notes on the state of the discussion:

15 of 19, I can but hope that the moderator will choose to delete your rather low quality post (#46) rather than close the thread.

It's not #46 I would worry about.

• • •​

Yeah, Tiassa will probably due some editing/deleting. Such is the way of the Mod these days ....

Oh, quit your goddamn whining. While I might, personally, agree with your suggestion that MetaKron might have a point hidden beneath the layers of crap, you, too, would be wise to find a better form of expression. The implication of threat in #43 doesn't exactly look good, and your silly chest-beating in #46 doesn't help. If you're not too high and mighty to consider a simple suggestion, I'd recommend that you ought to just tell him that if he wants to go down to a group of angry parents the next time there's a sexual abuse scandal at a nearby daycare, you'll be happy to film the resulting riot when he lays that exploitation conspiracy theory crap on them face to face.

Juvenile antisocial machismo just isn't an attractive style for you.

 

[15ofthe19]

You have a child. Can you understand my outrage?

I'm not excusing my posts. They were stupid, pointless. But just damn!

This cat is trying to diminish the damage done to a child that gets molested. Forgive me if I actually responded with a bit of emotion...???

 

[MetaKron]

I don't think anything violent is necessary here. A simple search of your hard drive by the local cops would most likely take care of the situation.

I don't argue that there are those who would demonize sex. Undoubtedly there are, and those people are wrong, but you are not making an effective argument against those people. Your misguided attempt to counter them is really more offensive than effective.

I don't keep any form of pornography on my hard drives, especially that.

One of my points is that just because I find certain kinds of sex disgusting, and sex with underage people is on that list, doesn't mean that I feel compelled to demonize or cause harm to weinie-waggers, gropers, or people who have sex with pubescent teenagers who most likely are having sex anyway.

So my arguments are not politically correct. So sue me. I consider the systematic attacks against childhood and teenage sexuality to be the basis of a lot of horrible problems that human society has.

 

[MetaKron]

You have a child. Can you understand my outrage?

I'm not excusing my posts. They were stupid, pointless. But just damn!

This cat is trying to diminish the damage done to a child that gets molested. Forgive me if I actually responded with a bit of emotion...???

I think that this conversation is bringing out the fact that your rage is unthinking and that you may not know what you are actually angry about.

And wouldn't it be terrible if I could diminish the damage that is done to a child.

My personal nightmare, that I have first-hand experience with, is that a parent will perceive something "wrong" with a child and cause a lot of damage trying to "fix" that thing. Experts have said that this phenomenon is a lot worse than the actual sexual abuse.

 

[MetaKron]

bells thats the problem, at what age CAN someone concent?

I have known 30 year olds who i wouldnt trust to use a ketle let alone concent to sex or to medical procidures and i have known people who are quite young who knew exactly what they were doing much younger than i was when i first had a relationship

Unfortuantly the law has to have a cut off and thats where the problem starts

Its also why the concent to medical treatment act is so vague about issues relating to concent and minors because you cant set an age and go "right there before that you are to stupid to know what is in your own best intrests and now your not"

I dont nessarly agree with the statory rape laws for POST pubesants but i DEFINITLY agree with them for PRE pubessants

Is there any rational way to assess the actual harm that is done to any given individual? Or benefits? I think of sex, as opposed to sexual abuse, as beneficial.

 

[Asguard]

MetaKron

There is a HUGE difference between pedophila and other kinds of sexual acts including homosexuality, S&M ect which some people find discusting

YES through out history pedophila was practiced by different cultures, it could even be said to exstend to pubity rituals where the older members of the tribe would sexually abuse a young boy to initate him as an adult. HOWEVER this doesnt make it right, yes pubity rituals are the reason most of us (if not all) are here. They served the purpose of instiling the idea that pain is not always to be avoided but sometimes welcomed in order to get greater rewards (ie the cute girl who lives down the way as a bride). Wether or not you belive this was a good thing however pubity rituals and pedophila are COMPLEATLY different topics. For one thing there was a reason (other than sexual gratification on the part of the elder) for these rituals, for another they were a one off thing that once ended was over rather than the sytomatic abuse of a pediphile

I have known 2 girls, one of who was sexually abused and the other whos father found out JUST in time to save her. It took ALONG time for them to associate sexual acts with anything other than the abuse

Also there is a difference between a pediphile and someone who has sex with young POST pubesants. A pediphile is atracted to someone who is yet to become sexually mature for starters. There are other differences which i really dont feel like going into but someone who has sex with a 16, 17 year old is NOT a pediphile by psycological definition. By a psych definition i belive they are normal actually, just that sociaty has decided that there is to great a power difference for true concent. This is born out in laws like the ones in victoria where the age of concent is 16 UNLESS You have a position of power over the other party (excepting marrage of course). Ie if your there legal gardian (again excepting husband or wife) or a doctor, teacher ect the age of concent is 18 or NEVER in the case of a doctor or mental heath proffessional treating a pt. this is because the power inbalance can never be equal so they can never compleatly concent. This may or maynot be born out in law but it is CERTIANLY born out in industry regulations

 

[MetaKron]

Well, I am glad that this society forbids power games that involve sex. Otherwise we might have politicians selling the idea of controlling sexual expression between consenting adults.

 

[Asguard]

Is there any rational way to assess the actual harm that is done to any given individual? Or benefits? I think of sex, as opposed to sexual abuse, as beneficial.

It depends on power balance and this isnt an area the law is good at judging, can power ever be equal say in a family situation (is the rational besides genetic defect for insest being illegal)

Can a child just experiancing sexual emotion fully comprehend what they are doing is another related problem and this is where satitory rape laws come from. The power balance between two 13 year olds is probably pritty even where as the power balance between a 13 year old and a 30 year old is highly unlikly to be even

Now YES it could be argued that the power balance between two adults can be uneven which is why there are laws in area's to MAKE it more even (doctor pt laws, sexual harasment laws, rape laws ect) but these are not always enough. How can we MAKE them enough? who knows, that is a matter for law councils and ethics groups

 

[MetaKron]

At some point you just can't make people behave and further attempts just make thing worse. People look at the negatives too much and shut out the positives. That's where this "there can be no positive value to such and such" comes from.

 

[Asguard]

i think your making a mestake about my feelings on the subject. I personally know of girls who were sexually asulted VERY young and i have had to help them deal with this. Also have seen the suicide rates especially for men who were sexually assulted as children