Scientists and Virtue

[Read-Only]

Now lets take the possibility that there were at least a few people at some point of time in history, approached authorities or intellectually superior people of their time frame with ideas and thoughts about the unexplored laws of nature. Do you think that its possible that they got pushed away because of lack of scientific evidence? Do you think that many of such fields which went neglected or laughed at could have some traces towards the unexplainable part of nature?

If so, what all steps must we take to ensure that our generation wont be repeating the same mistakes over and over again?

I'm sure that has happened - but WHO said it it was mistakes, you? Good science works along a specific path: building new ideas upon what's already been proven. Can you point to a single instance where some untrained, undereducated individual has EVER come up with something that was later shown to be correct?????

 

[theobserver]

I'm sure that has happened - but WHO said it it was mistakes, you? Good science works along a specific path: building new ideas upon what's already been proven. Can you point to a single instance where some untrained, undereducated individual has EVER come up with something that was later shown to be correct?????

u kidding me?? What about the ancient hindu texts which explained heliocentrism which were written by untrained undereducated individuals compared to our current standards? What about the churches actions against Galileo?

We can argue that necessary equipments to prove it weren't present till Galileo made them. But that doesn't change the fact that the information was present for centuries but got rejected by the scholars. And to be honest, i think that happens all the time because of arrogant narrow minded individuals like yourself who consider themselves as scientists or people of higher intellect.

 

[Read-Only]

u kidding me?? What about the ancient hindu texts which explained heliocentrism which were written by untrained undereducated individuals compared to our current standards? What about the churches actions against Galileo?

We can argue that necessary equipments to prove it weren't present till Galileo made them. But that doesn't change the fact that the information was present for centuries but got rejected by the scholars. And to be honest, i think that happens all the time because of arrogant narrow minded individuals like yourself who consider themselves as scientists or people of higher intellect.

Most of that is just irrevelant fluff - it did NOT meet the requirements of the question I asked. Neither the church nor Hindu people could come close to being "scientists" by any stretch of the imagination. :shrug:

 

[theobserver]

Most of that is just irrevelant fluff - it did NOT meet the requirements of the question I asked. Neither the church nor Hindu people could come close to being "scientists" by any stretch of the imagination. :shrug:

No they didn't; as per the standards and methods of science. Doesn't change the fact that the information's documented centuries ago were proved 100% true to the satisfaction of scientists at a later point in time. So technically its possible that non-scientists can observe things and form theories using simple deductive reasoning. You agree?

 

[Read-Only]

No they didn't; as per the standards and methods of science. Doesn't change the fact that the information's documented centuries ago were proved 100% true to the satisfaction of scientists at a later point in time. So technically its possible that non-scientists can observe things and form theories using simple deductive reasoning. You agree?

Yes, but ONLY in a very, VERY limited sense. At the current level of scientific understanding, however, an ignorant, untrained and uneducated mind has as much chance of doing that as they do of becoming Emperor of the World. (And that's exactly what kind of people we have here making new suggestions - as has popped up in this thread and several others.)

 

[theobserver]

Yes, but ONLY in a very, VERY limited sense. At the current level of scientific understanding, however, an ignorant, untrained and uneducated mind has as much chance of doing that as they do of becoming Emperor of the World. (And that's exactly what kind of people we have here making new suggestions - as has popped up in this thread and several others.)

How many so called educated trained scientists have made mistakes??? How do you see it? A scientist making an error in his theory or experiments is more serious than an uneducated untrained common man making few errors in his hypothesis. And imho, you are doing the same mistake by rejecting simple logic and stubbornly defending your ignorance.

 

[Read-Only]

How many so called educated trained scientists have made mistakes??? How do you see it? A scientist making an error in his theory or experiments is more serious than an uneducated untrained common man making few errors in his hypothesis. And imho, you are doing the same mistake by rejecting simple logic and stubbornly defending your ignorance.

Bad call - I'm not defending any ignorance at all !!!!:bugeye: Certainly, everyone makes mistakes. And just who do suppose would make the most of them - a professional working from a solid basis or an untrained, uneducated common man using nothing more than his imagination????

Seems to me that you're doing nothing here but crusading FOR ignorance and opposing genuine scientific efforts in favor of woo-woo-ism. You sure do seem in favor of it.

 

[stateofmind]

Hmmm, I think I've got it now. "Judge em' before they've had a trial." If there was a government based on that what do you think it would be called?

 

[theobserver]

Bad call - I'm not defending any ignorance at all !!!!:bugeye: Certainly, everyone makes mistakes. And just who do suppose would make the most of them - a professional working from a solid basis or an untrained, uneducated common man using nothing more than his imagination????

Seems to me that you're doing nothing here but crusading FOR ignorance and opposing genuine scientific efforts in favor of woo-woo-ism. You sure do seem in favor of it.

Did you forgot what Einstein said about imagination???

A professional is trained not to make mistakes. But he still makes it. And a common man can be nailed to the scientific cross for his theory which may or may not be true, challenged, humiliated, demotivated and labeled as pseudo science by the same scientific community when he try to prove his theory using his limited knowledge. Isnt that we must fight against? Dont we need to have a group of willing scientists/researchers trying to help the common man with imagination and walk some distance with him and see if it can be proved within the existing limitations of scientific methods?

 

[Read-Only]

Did you forgot what Einstein said about imagination???

That's one of THE greatest misunderstood quotes of all times. It's often brought up by nuts and fruitcakes because they completely miss the real point and thin that it justifies their nonsense. Yes, imagination IS good - but when it's based on fallacies and misunderstandings instead of solid principles, it's TOTALLY worthless! For example, you can imagine anti-gravity, over-unity devices and violations of things like thermodynamics all you want to - but guess what? It will NOT get you anywhere.

A professional is trained not to make mistakes. But he still makes it. And a common man can be nailed to the scientific cross for his theory which may or may not be true, challenged, humiliated, demotivated and labeled as pseudo science by the same scientific community when he try to prove his theory using his limited knowledge. Isnt that we must fight against? Dont we need to have a group of willing scientists/researchers trying to help the common man with imagination and walk some distance with him and see if it can be proved within the existing limitations of scientific methods?

Of course a professional will make mistakes. After all he/she is still just human with limitations. And no, there's no reason at all to fight against what you are proposing. That and all the rest you've just suggested would be a HUGE waste of time, effort and resources - can you honestly not understand that?:shrug:

 

[theobserver]

That's one of THE greatest misunderstood quotes of all times. It's often brought up by nuts and fruitcakes because they completely miss the real point and thin that it justifies their nonsense. Yes, imagination IS good - but when it's based on fallacies and misunderstandings instead of solid principles, it's TOTALLY worthless! For example, you can imagine anti-gravity, over-unity devices and violations of things like thermodynamics all you want to - but guess what? It will NOT get you anywhere.

If your argument is correct, then how did any of these solid principles became solid principles in the first place??? Most imaginations originate from the simple act of questioning the existing theories. Personally I don't call it imagination though. Its deductive reasoning. And most of the discoveries that changed mankind happened by accident.

Of course a professional will make mistakes. After all he/she is still just human with limitations. And no, there's no reason at all to fight against what you are proposing. That and all the rest you've just suggested would be a HUGE waste of time, effort and resources - can you honestly not understand that?:shrug:

There is more than enough reasons to change the existing scientific double standards. People are increasingly becoming stupid and stubborn but educated and media dependent. may be its a mistake made in past that caused all these. Dont you think thats possible? a simple something which some prejudiced scientist ignored to think further because he was having a bad day or limited knowledge might be the reason why there are much more troubles surrounding us.

 

[Read-Only]

If your argument is correct, then how did any of these solid principles became solid principles in the first place??? Most imaginations originate from the simple act of questioning the existing theories. Personally I don't call it imagination though. Its deductive reasoning. And most of the discoveries that changed mankind happened by accident.

Incorrect (as usual). There's a tremendous difference/gap between imagination and deductive reasoning. And the majority of earth-shattering discoveries were NOT be accident - they were products of hard, diligent work starting from a solid, established base. (Einstein is prime example of that, as was the discovery of atomic energy and several other things.)

There is more than enough reasons to change the existing scientific double standards. People are increasingly becoming stupid and stubborn but educated and media dependent. may be its a mistake made in past that caused all these. Dont you think thats possible? a simple something which some prejudiced scientist ignored to think further because he was having a bad day or limited knowledge might be the reason why there are much more troubles surrounding us.

There's absolutely NO sound reason to implement what you're proposing - in fact there's a LOT of very good reasons not to do so.

For one thing, do you have any remote idea of the time, money and resources it takes to produce one single researcher? Thousands of hours and dollars. Then to take even a single hour of that person's time to check into some fruitcake proposal should almost be considered a crime against humanity because they cannot do any REAL work during that time. In fact, your rather childish idea would probably tie up half the scientific community of the entire world - and produce absolutely nothing! Leave those people alone and allow them to do their jobs! Chasing after ghosts and pseudo-scientific investigations is nothing but waste. (I know I keep repeating that but it's only because you continue to refuse to face reality.)

 

[eddie23]

Yes, but ONLY in a very, VERY limited sense. At the current level of scientific understanding, however, an ignorant, untrained and uneducated mind has as much chance of doing that as they do of becoming Emperor of the World. (And that's exactly what kind of people we have here making new suggestions - as has popped up in this thread and several others.)

Those 3 things are not always together. It sounds like you are trying to put untrained, uneducated and ignorant as one quality that equals stupid.
I myself am not trained, I have no Higher education in the sciences, but I am not ignorant nor am I unintelligent.
So some times I am wrong, mistaken, or just plain dont agree with mainstream scientists, but it has nothing to do with ignorance or lack of education.
I do look things up, and as unpopular ar it is these days I even read about subjects that I am interested in. Only after this do I form an opinion, or post an alternant theory.
I think a lot of people on this site are in that same boat with me, and I realy like dissusing things with them.
Read only I have even agreed with you, admitted when I was mistaken and dissagreed with you on different threads.
When I admit to a mistake or agree with you it is easy to talk to you but If I or others have a different opinion or theory than you you make it hard to discuss the topic.

I am not trying to start any crap. Just some thing that I have noticed.

 

[Read-Only]

Those 3 things are not always together. It sounds like you are trying to put untrained, uneducated and ignorant as one quality that equals stupid.

No, I'm not trying to make them equal to "stupid." I'm a VERY literal person and mean precisely what I say. I used those words for exactly what they mean - if I had wanted to say 'stupid' I would have written "stupid.'

I myself am not trained, I have no Higher education in the sciences, but I am not ignorant nor am I unintelligent.
So some times I am wrong, mistaken, or just plain dont agree with mainstream scientists, but it has nothing to do with ignorance or lack of education.
I do look things up, and as unpopular ar it is these days I even read about subjects that I am interested in. Only after this do I form an opinion, or post an alternant theory.
I think a lot of people on this site are in that same boat with me, and I realy like dissusing things with them.
Read only I have even agreed with you, admitted when I was mistaken and dissagreed with you on different threads.
When I admit to a mistake or agree with you it is easy to talk to you but If I or others have a different opinion or theory than you you make it hard to discuss the topic.

I am not trying to start any crap. Just some thing that I have noticed.

Let me make this easy for you and everyone else. I have no problem with people who are ignorant (the word simply means "not knowing") or with those who are untrained or undereducated - PROVIDED they are making an effort to overcome those deficiencies. On the other hand, when they make it clear that they are NOT making an effort and just running their mouths (which is all to common here), I consider them to actually BE stupid idiots and not worth wasting my time on.

That should clear up some things for you, hopefully.

 

[eddie23]

It does
Thanks for the reply

 

[theobserver]

Incorrect (as usual). There's a tremendous difference/gap between imagination and deductive reasoning. And the majority of earth-shattering discoveries were NOT be accident - they were products of hard, diligent work starting from a solid, established base. (Einstein is prime example of that, as was the discovery of atomic energy and several other things.)

Do you mind listing a few of such discoveries that happened at a time when there were no textbooks or formal education system which didn't happened by accident or by questioning the existing set of beliefs??? Isn't that the same what Einstein also did? He questioned the existing knowledge which was accepted by scientific community without any doubt.

 

[Read-Only]

Do you mind listing a few of such discoveries that happened at a time when there were no textbooks or formal education system which didn't happened by accident or by questioning the existing set of beliefs??? Isn't that the same what Einstein also did? He questioned the existing knowledge which was accepted by scientific community without any doubt.

Here we go again - delving into the distant past which has NO application to the situation today. And Einstein most certainly was NOT working in the dark alone, he was building on previous works done by others (do your own research) and taking it to the next level.

If you really want to go back 200 or 300 years ago (and more), then go by yourself and leave me out it. We could spend months talking about Mendelssohn, Priestly, Lavoisier, Ben Franklin and many other pioneers - and (again) accomplish nothing in the end.

 

[Read-Only]

It does
Thanks for the reply

You are very welcome. As I've said so many times before, I'll always take the time to work with someone who has honest questions and is looking for answers. (Especially when it concerns something that I've said personally that they want clarified.)

 

[theobserver]

Here we go again - delving into the distant past which has NO application to the situation today. And Einstein most certainly was NOT working in the dark alone, he was building on previous works done by others (do your own research) and taking it to the next level.

He was working on a theory once proved by someone else and thought to be perfect by a large number of scientists. You conveniently forgot that I guess.

 

[stateofmind]

To ridicule someone's idea and deem it wrong without first considering it is irrational. Hell, if the idea's so stupid and illogical, couldn't you just simply point out the glaring contradictions instead of attacking and defacing the person's reputation for pages?

When you realize this irrational behavior among "scientists", which is a rite of passage for the scientific establishment these days, you have to wonder if there aren't some underlying motives i.e. belief protection.