News from Gaza Part 2

Discussion in 'The Cesspool' started by S.A.M., Nov 20, 2008.

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  1. Captain Kremmen All aboard, me Hearties! Valued Senior Member

    People might be interested to read Kaufman's speech in full

    I was brought up as an orthodox Jew and a Zionist. On a shelf in our kitchen, there was a tin box for the Jewish National Fund, into which we put coins to help the pioneers building a Jewish presence in Palestine.

    I first went to Israel in 1961 and I have been there since more times than I can count. I had family in Israel and have friends in Israel. One of them fought in the wars of 1956, 1967 and 1973 and was wounded in two of them. The tie clip that I am wearing is made from a campaign decoration awarded to him, which he presented to me.

    I have known most of the Prime Ministers of Israel, starting with the founding Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion. Golda Meir was my friend, as was Yigal Allon, Deputy Prime Minister, who, as a general, won the Negev for Israel in the 1948 war of independence.

    My parents came to Britain as refugees from Poland. Most of their families were subsequently murdered by the Nazis in the holocaust. My grandmother was ill in bed when the Nazis came to her home town of Staszow. A German soldier shot her dead in her bed.

    My grandmother did not die to provide cover for Israeli soldiers murdering Palestinian grandmothers in Gaza. The current Israeli Government ruthlessly and cynically exploit the continuing guilt among gentiles over the slaughter of Jews in the holocaust as justification for their murder of Palestinians. The implication is that Jewish lives are precious, but the lives of Palestinians do not count.

    On Sky News a few days ago, the spokeswoman for the Israeli army, Major Leibovich, was asked about the Israeli killing of, at that time, 800 Palestinians—the total is now 1,000. She replied instantly that

    "500 of them were militants."

    That was the reply of a Nazi. I suppose that the Jews fighting for their lives in the Warsaw ghetto could have been dismissed as militants.

    The Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni asserts that her Government will have no dealings with Hamas, because they are terrorists. Tzipi Livni's father was Eitan Livni, chief operations officer of the terrorist Irgun Zvai Leumi, who organised the blowing-up of the King David hotel in Jerusalem, in which 91 victims were killed, including four Jews.

    Israel was born out of Jewish terrorism. Jewish terrorists hanged two British sergeants and booby-trapped their corpses. Irgun, together with the terrorist Stern gang, massacred 254 Palestinians in 1948 in the village of Deir Yassin. Today, the current Israeli Government indicate that they would be willing, in circumstances acceptable to them, to negotiate with the Palestinian President Abbas of Fatah. It is too late for that. They could have negotiated with Fatah's previous leader, Yasser Arafat, who was a friend of mine. Instead, they besieged him in a bunker in Ramallah, where I visited him. Because of the failings of Fatah since Arafat's death, Hamas won the Palestinian election in 2006. Hamas is a deeply nasty organisation, but it was democratically elected, and it is the only game in town. The boycotting of Hamas, including by our Government, has been a culpable error, from which dreadful consequences have followed.

    The great Israeli Foreign Minister Abba Eban, with whom I campaigned for peace on many platforms, said:

    "You make peace by talking to your enemies."

    However many Palestinians the Israelis murder in Gaza, they cannot solve this existential problem by military means. Whenever and however the fighting ends, there will still be 1.5 million Palestinians in Gaza and 2.5 million more on the west bank. They are treated like dirt by the Israelis, with hundreds of road blocks and with the ghastly denizens of the illegal Jewish settlements harassing them as well. The time will come, not so long from now, when they will outnumber the Jewish population in Israel.

    It is time for our Government to make clear to the Israeli Government that their conduct and policies are unacceptable, and to impose a total arms ban on Israel. It is time for peace, but real peace, not the solution by conquest which is the Israelis' real goal but which it is impossible for them to achieve. They are not simply war criminals; they are fools.
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  3. Challenger78 Valued Senior Member

    I agree with him, However it should be noted, that even Yitzhak Rabin, the closest one so far to come to peace, was offering the palestinians a lot less than they need.

    Also, Is it possible that israel launched this campaign because of the change in the white house ?
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  5. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

    "... After the first volley hit the rocket-scarred town of Sderot, Israeli aircraft hit the rocket squad that fired it, the military said. ..." ( just after Israel declared unilaterally a cease fire.)


    Way to go IAF
    Do more of this and less bombing of food storage depots. Keep CAP on border and kill those terrorists, not citizens in cities.
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  7. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

    From Baffalo's post 778:
    "... That is a Mach 2.03 for the BM 21, rocket, a Mortar is Mach .6275, one hell of a difference in preformance profile. Plus here is a little something I found, this is the range fans of the BM-21 system rockets. The rockets have a range of 12.7 miles / 20.4 km, now just how big will your proposed system have to be to defend the impact areas of the range fans? ..."

    I have been recommending the CIWS as more than adequate for the SUBSONIC , SIMPLY FALLING HOLLOW TUBE ROCKETS, which the Gaza terrorist are now using, and have for several years. I have not been speaking of the advanced Mach 2+ rockets that may someday be fired from Gaza.

    YES the BM-21, if available in quantity could saturate the CIWS last ditch defense. Thus as I previously posted, Israel must counter these Mach 2+ rockets with defense in depth, at least two layers, so the CIWS is only called on to handle the "leakers." CIWS can certainly do that, one at a time, with high kill probability, but will have the normal fire rate, (Mach 2 threat approaching does not give a lot of time to kill it) instead a fire rate reducted by factor of at least 30 to save bullets.

    Also I have clearly stated the CIWS is to protect only the cities within range of the attacking rockets, not the entire ground area they can fall into. Thus the "fans" of area, shown on your map, which the rockets can hit, is NOT the protected area.*

    If your fears that the terrorist may get the Mach 2.03 for the BM 21, rocket are well founded, then Israel must put in place an outer layer of defense prior to the CIWS. I have no objection, in fact recommend, that Israel overfly Gaza both with CAP and armed drones but only strike back at military targets (such as team of terrorist setting up launchers or if they can do so undetected and launch, then at the launch area immediately when the computers of the nationwide radar network have backtracked the trajectory. Often CAP will see the muzzle flare and can even more quickly kill terrorists and the launch equipment. (According to the Yahoo news I quoted in post 791, the IAF did exactly this, today! - Again I say: Way to go IAF Do it again, and again! Leave the food depots alone.

    I have also suggested that Israel develop or acquire blimps with air to ground missile capability for a cheaper than CAP first layer of defenses. (Kill terrorists and rockets still on the ground, a few seconds after the first is launched.) I doubt the IAF can ever kill an airborn Mach 2 missile with its guns but surely often can with small faster heat seeker missile etc. It will not be maneuvering, dropping decoy flares, or shooting back like a fighter on fighter battle.

    *Certainly any area with more goats and sheep than people per square meter need not be defended. People there, such as the goat herder will be at risk, but that is orders of magnitude fewer people than are currently at risk with Israel's High Kill Ratio RETALITORY policy (instead of a DEFENSIVE policy).

    Lets do a crude analysis:

    Assume less than 1 in ten rockets that impact in this low human density area kill a person and assume 4 terrorists on average are at or near the launch site. Assume that the IAF and the prompt counter battery artillery fire kill two of the four on average. That means that for each Israeli goat herded, etc. killed 20 terrorist are killed. – That is a "high kill ratio" I completely approve of. Israel should defend itself as best as it can with modern technology (most of which is more than 40 years old and well tested), not try to kill and starve as many Palestinians as it can justify to the world community. (Do without causing worldwide boycott of Israeli products etc.)
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 18, 2009
  8. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

    Another one:

  9. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

    It's quite hilarious that you're blinded by your "Catch 22" assertion.

    Just like the last 1400 years, backwards and warring. Terrific.

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  10. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

    The US never invited Sam, Sam came to the US. Why would she put herself in a position to live in a country she loathes? How is your "occupation" coming along, Sam?
  11. Buffalo Roam Registered Senior Member


    Bill T, the BM-21 is already being fired from Gaza, don't you read the news?
    and even the lowly Qusam has a 1200fps velocity, I don't know the exact figures, and Hammas is already in possession of rocket with longer ranges that the BM-21 system.

    Mach starts at 1100 fps, and the Qusam in much faster than that.

    And the fact that is that it is much easier to hit a target launched at 45 deg or higher in a slow moving arc, then a target launched below 45 deg, at Mach speed +.

    Now if you care to check out the range fans from Palestinian territory,, I can already point out a new tactic from the Palestinians, there is overlap in the range fans, so coordinated fires from to or more range fans against a point can easily overwhelm a static defense, to many targets across to broad of a fan.

    And the Palestinians and Hamas keep getting access to larger rockets with longer ranges, and more sophistication, which keeps increasing the overlapping coverage of their range fans.

    What I love is as people point out the flaws in your system you keep squeezing the parameters.

    You are depending on Hamas and the Palestinians reacting exactly to the attack profiles you set.

    Your are depending on the effectiveness of Israelis counter battery, they are good but the only way battery fire works is if you hit the launch point before the launch occurs, and in most cases, the rockets are in the air before battery fire can be initiated, even with radar warning as the rocket leave the launchers, so counter battery is ineffective except to destroy the launchers, and make sure that the area cannot be use immediately for a second launch

    Now we still have one problem, the Palestinians launching from civilian rich zones, they invite the people and especially the children to watch, and why would that be?
  12. Buffalo Roam Registered Senior Member

    Really, Than what are the reaseach and teaching, Professors who I go to church with?

    Scientists Speak Up on Mix of God and Science - New York Tim...
    Aug 23, 2005 ... Dr. Collins was a nonbeliever until he was 27 - "more and more into the mode ... Most scientists he knows who do believe in God, he added, ... - Similar pages

    The reason Islamic countries will never be highly educated is that they destroy anything that does not comport with the Quran and Hadith.
  13. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

    Like stem cell technology and abortion. heehee
  14. Vega Banned Banned

    Hamas has lost this war and would never stand again!. Only if they used their brains instead of their blind islamic ideology they wouldn't have been in this situation in the first place. Oh yeah and the old occupation story! well thats ancient history now!
  15. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

    I thought the Jews proved that there is no such thing as ancient history in Palestine.

    And Hamas lost alright. Lets have the Israelis announce elections in Palestine.
  16. Vega Banned Banned

    I hate to break the bad news to you but there is no palestine anymore...just like there is no santa claus!..boohoo:bawl:
  17. Crunchy Cat F-in' *meow* baby!!! Valued Senior Member


    A dead threat from group X along with "innocent" casualties from the same group is more valuable than a live threat from group X with no casualties. Group X is always intrisnically less valuable than your own group.

    On a sidenote, Hamas has had the power to stop the onslaight from day 1. Stop firing rockets... that's it.
  18. Zakariya04 and it was Valued Senior Member


    as in "Palestine has been wiped off the map"

    is that what you mean vega???????

    and guess what i am going to hear next.............................

    PS - how you doing with the Yahct?????
  19. Buffalo Roam Registered Senior Member

    pj every thing I have pointed out is part and parcel of the Geneva Convention, I have given citation and site source, from International Treaty and Law, from the whole body of that law, parts that you may not agree with, but parts that are legal and enforceable, and in force.

    So You and Bells are the ones who don't want to get it, you cherry pick parts of the Geneva Convention, to support your biased opinions, and ignore the rest of the Chapters and Protocol Addition to the Convention.

    Israel get the bennifit of those parts of the Geneva Convention that protect it's rights to defend its self from agression.

    And as some oen stated before Hamas had control to stop the fighting and dying----Just stop sending the rocket into Israel.
  20. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

    You cannot defend yourself from people you occupy. Thats like the Germans claiming self defence from Jews in Warsaw. Just plain stupid.
  21. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

    I read a lot of it, but have not seen that- I asked before but again do you have a link?

    Surely, if true, that is only after the Qusams leaves the launch rails, near burnout of the fuel. I have seen many photos of their climb up. They are barely stable. After fuel exhaustion, they then arch over and fall, very sub sub sonically I am sure as the tube empty of fuel is low density.

    we certainly agree here. Why I say the Qusam are a very easy target for CIWS especially after fuel burnout when nearly stationary at the peak of the trajectory.

    Coming from different angles of approach is little problem for CIWS, if the target is slow as it can slew rapidly - do not remember the data but a full 360 (only 180 required) in about a second. It is as you know limited to engaging one target at a time, but most of that time can be the bullet flout time. I.e. no reason why it cannot shoot at distant target for a few seconds, slew in angle to another and then return to the first if need be. I do not know if Israel has, but about 18 years ago APL was putting the finishing touches on the CIC (combat information center) it allowed the fleet to have one integrated radar picture so every ship saw far beyond its own radar horizon. The main benefit, in addition to better coordination, was that a ship on the other side of the battle group which could not illuminate the beyond the horizon target* could none the less shoot a SM-2 missile at it. When that missile had flown over the battle group to the side form which the attack was coming, it was "handed off"(like air traffic controllers do) to a ship on the side of the attack to illuminate the target. This effectively more than doubled the SM-2s available for shooting down the threat (The new vertical launch AEGIS ship have many different missile types loaded in the launch tubes, but they could run out of the type needed.

    *SM-2 missiles are a "bistatic radar" system. I.e. the receiver is in the missile but the powerful ship board radar "paints" the target with an "illumination beam" which bounces off the target for the SM-2 to home on. This is part of the reason why sea-skimmers are more difficult to hit. The illuminator beam reflects off the target in all directions so some reflected radar can first make second reflection in front of the target off the sea surface and the SM-2 might home on it. AFAIK, this is not much of a problem now, but if the target is recoding the illumination and rebroadcasting it with very slight delay, then there is a string of false targets behind the true target and perhaps one "sea bounce target" in front of the true target so sophisticated sea skimmers are not always easy to kill.

    no doubt true - that is precisely my point that Israel needs to change from the retaliation approach and seek to establish peace (kill only terrorist, defend itself well form their efforts for a generation, etc.) As the years go by, especially when biological weapons come to be used, the damage Israel suffers and retaliates against will just grow worse. As Obama, might say: It is time for a change"

    No - I still just refer to my original post of several years ago. It was and still is adequate means to save more Israeli lives than the retaliation approach. I agree that the defended area required is growing larger and that a second layer of defense prior to the CIWS is required if the Quasam rockets are replaced by higher performance rockets.

    No -only expecting them to fire from Gaza, not Israel or the West bank except very rarely.

    That is basically true, if you assume that the terrorist can fire all their rockets at that site simultaneously. Thus far they do not seem to have much simultaneous launch capacity from what I read - correct me with a link if I am wrong.

    Now we still have one problem, the Palestinians launching from civilian rich zones, they invite the people and especially the children to watch, and why would that be?[/QUOTE]I have addressed this point before, so will be brief. IF Israel ONLY fired artillery at sites that had recently launched, instead of quasi-randomly into fields and olive groves (and Med sea beach area for naval ship gun practice etc.) then one of two things would soon become common practice:

    (1) When innocent civilians saw the rocket launcher being assembled etc. they would flee the area as they could be sure it would soon be pounded by Israeli counter- battery artillery fire.
    (2) The terrorist would tie some women and children to stakes near the launchers they were setting up. Israel should hope the terrorist are stupid enough to do this as then it would be clear that the women and children were shredded because the terrorist had prevented them from leaving. - very rapidly the terrorist would lose their main asset - the support of the Palestinians people, who now see them as trying to liberate their homes form the occupiers and guilty of random killing of them. is in Israel's long term interest to cease collective punishment of the Palestinian people and work towards a two state solution and real peace. There is so much mutual hatred on both sides, that that is currently impossible, IMHO, - As I say we need at least a generation of defensive (not high kill ratio retaliatory) policy in which these extremist can die of old age in the beds before real peace is possible.
  22. Crunchy Cat F-in' *meow* baby!!! Valued Senior Member

    There is a saying that seems very related... "take care of your business, or you will become someone elses business".
  23. Ghost_007 Registered Senior Member


    Hey Zak, been a long time!

    Muslims are in a dire position, no denying that but the way I see it everything works in cycles. The Muslim faith sprang out of nowhere and took the World by storm, this was when Europe was just one big massive shithole. Now Muslims are in trouble, we have weak spineless leaders and a lot of mistrust between nations. Within the Muslim World now there is a lot of tension, tension between Sunnis - Shias, Sunnis - Wahabis etc. I can never forget how a Saudi cleric said it was forbidden for Muslims (Sunnis) to support Hezbollah against Israel, the fighting in Iraq between the Sunnis and Shias has been horrific, no other word for it. It is tragic. But when you have leaders like Hosni Mubarak, Nouri al-Maliki, the Saudi Royal family etc. you know you are in trouble.

    Look at Egypt, that country has been under a state of emergency for 25 years, imagine that! Mateys can be arrested and tortured for no reason. In these countries you can't express your opinion, they kill your freedom, how can these countries develop?

    Some of the smartest people I've met are Muslims, no one can say Muslims have no talent, that talent is there it is just concealed, I'm sure when circumstances improve these guys will be brought to the fore. They have so much to offer the rest of the World.
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