Please answer to this question.
hamas is trageting deliberately civilians. Does hamas act like the nazis?
News from Gaza Part 2
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Please answer to this question.
hamas is trageting deliberately civilians. Does hamas act like the nazis?
Billy T said:
Was just reading the news today. Of the 20 or so Israelis killed, 3 are civilians killed by rockets, after the war started, there is or isn't one in the six months before that [ie contradictory reports of one civilian death before the war]. The rest are IDF troops, approx 8 of which died in friendly fire.
In the same time, Hamas rockets accidentally killed 4 Palestinians [including two children] before the war. Palestinian deaths due to the Israeli invasion is around 1200, with 1/3 children and 5000 injured, again one third children
Some "retaliation"
3 weeks ago, during the last few days before the war began, they were sending an average of almost 70 mortars, grads and kassam in the direction of Ashquelon, Sderot and other Israeli towns. Their rockets are not as accurate as they want but still, they have targeted deliberately these civilian towns. Do you deny this?
One can always test, but I am quite confident that CIWS is better than that. - There has been one test running since 2005 with no failures against mortar shells, sub-sonic targets with trajectories like the Gaza rockets (but more challenging as faster and smaller). These CIWS defending the green zone in Iraq are shooting at quite different targets than the cruise missiles they were designed for.
I am not good at searching and not inclined to do so, but bet the surplus CIWS being removed from the ships of many nations now are finding other applications that are "tests" also. SAM is good at searching - perhaps she will dig up some other "tests in progress"
Hammers were not designed for cracking peanut shells, but I am quite confident that against that easy target, the peanut shell will "die." I.e. it would be very very strange that CIWS would have difficulty with such easy targets as the Gaza rockets and there is no indication that they would based on the green zone results. (They were also used in NW Iraq, but I forget the details.).
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Are there no IDF troops in these towns? Because in November, the IDF invaded and killed 6 Palestinians, breaking the truce which Hamas had held for 4 months.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123154826952369919.html?mod=googlenews_wsj
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123154826952369919.html?mod=googlenews_wsj
Billy, can you tell me why Hamas did not use the long range rockets and white phosphorus missiles they had until well into the war? Why not in the days they were throwing rockets before the war? Why wait till the Israelis invaded? Is it some kind of strategy?
What you are doing is handwaving, As I told you earlier, the CIWS is designed for hughly directional targets.
But you still think that Pd is higher than 99.99%. Hand waving is not good enough.
Likewise for the patriot missile that were used in the first gulfe war. They were not designed for targetting missiles but they were used for this and most of the dammage they did was not to the scud missiles but to the israeli houses.
Israel is developping a technology against objects from gaza, but it is not ready yet (search Iron dome)
And finally, even when the Iron dome will be ready, that does not give hamas the right to deliberately target civilians and remain unpunnished
No, these are civilian towns and hamas were deliberately targeting these towns.
Don't you think that when they deliberately target civilians, they are acting as nazis?
Please give a simple answer: yes or no
I don't think they are targeting the civilians at all. And occupied people cannot be Nazis, only occupiers can. It seems to me their rockets are in response to military incursions and murder by the IDF [not to mention the crippling blockade].
What, in your opinion, considering the last 60 years of trial and error they have endured, should the Palestinians do. Note that they have already tried everything from peaceful protests [met with machine gun fire] to suicide bombing. They accepted the 67 borders and offered a 10 year hudna, all of which were rejected. These are not the actions of a party that wants to kill civilians. What would work on Israel, since obviously the four month truce and the rockets both did not?
What, in your opinion, considering the last 60 years of trial and error they have endured, should the Palestinians do. Note that they have already tried everything from peaceful protests [met with machine gun fire] to suicide bombing. They accepted the 67 borders and offered a 10 year hudna, all of which were rejected. These are not the actions of a party that wants to kill civilians. What would work on Israel, since obviously the four month truce and the rockets both did not?
Well in fact I agree with tou, they are not targeting civilians. In fact they are sending falafel balls, and when Zipi Livni said: "enough is enough is enough", it was because each falafel ball has a lot of calories. But as a ripost, Israel is sending back the falafel balls in pita.
And every time they sent a suicide bomber, it was not for targeting civilians. The allways exploded in buses, but it was because the buses are old and they wanted to give them a new painting. All the civilians that were killed were killed by mistake. They didn't target civilians deliberately
Stupid me
I find it really odd that you consider the Hamas' hope that the rockets will hit somebody in their frustration with their situation as targeting civilians, but the IDF throwing missiles with white phosphorus at schools, hospitals and refugee camps as not.
Yes it is really odd.
In fact these rockets are not true rockets, and they are sending them with the hope that they will dig holes in the ground and find some water. You know these last winters we did not have almost any rain, and those friendly hamas are helping us finding water. How nice they are
I agree with you, these good hamas people are helping us to find water in the ground and see how we reward them
If you read the history of the ZOB and their smuggling weapons, food and other necessities thorugh the sewers, using their children and women to aid them in the attacks, which they carried out from their roofs [hiding behind civilians, as it were], its almost as if Gaza was the remake of an old movie.
and as I told you earlier- yes 90+% of the times it fires for ship defense it is against an inbound target but that it does shoot (to help other ships) AT CROSSING TARGETS. Also in essentially 100% of the tests, it is shooting at a crossing towed target, far behind the towing plane.
Not "hand waving" but knowledge as to what makes a targets harder to hit. (Being supersonic, weaving, and skimming just above the tops of the waves.) - The slowly falling high elevation Gaza targets are simple, very very easy targets - a few dozen bullets sometimes I would expect is all that are required.) Also “not hand waving” as the CIWS is keeping the green zone from safe mortar shells on trajectories quite like the Gaza rockets. You are doing worse than “handwaving” (but that too) when asserting falsely that the CIWS is only designed for inbound targets. True most target are inbound in real attacks and true that the weaving inbound target was developed to avoid flying into the “wall of lead” CIWS can throw up when firing 4000 bullets a second. (CIWS must “converge the bullet stream onto the target” and the weaver can get much closer before that happens.)
Can you give a link?
I am all for killing the terrorist launching the rockets and have said so many times. My standard phrase is that the prompt, counter battery artillery fire achieved by existing moble artillery* in integrated system with computers back tracking nationwide radar data should "shred any living thing at the launch site" within about 45 seconds or less after first rocket launch (at least before the rocket hits the ground.)
Killing the terrorist should be adequate "punishment," but I am not for the current stupid collective punishment. - Not because on moral grounds, but on pragmatic grounds - It is not very smart to recruit more terrorists than you kill every year.
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*Isreal has more than a hundred mobile artillery units, I think, each with about a 15 mile max range. A small fraction of them could easily cover the 38 mile Gaza/Israeli border with less than 20 second flight time for the shell!) Israel is CHOOSING collective punishment, instead of killing the terrorist launching rockets. I can only think of one reason why. I have repeatedly asked Israel’s defenders posting here if they can tell a less shameful reason for this choice. None have answered. Perhaps you will try?
Buffalo Roam
Registered Senior Member
Billy T all I have to say to you is Sergeant York.
All off the shelf systems that worked well for their assigned missions, yet when put together as another system, they tracked, targeted and destroyed a Latrine Fan, along with the latrine, instead of the incoming drone.
And again, rockets are not a high angle weapon, their trajectory is much lower and faster than a mortar round.
BM-21 "Grad"
Caliber 122.4 mm (4.81 in)
Barrels 40
Rate of fire 2 rounds/s
Muzzle velocity 690 m/s (2,264 ft/s)
Maximum range 20,400 m (22,310 yds)
Sights PG-1M panoramic telescope
A mortar is a muzzle-loading indirect fire weapon that fires shells at low velocities, short ranges, and high-arcing ballistic trajectories.
81mm M1 Mortar
FM 23-91:Mortar Gunnery
General Data
Weight: 136 lbs assembled; tube 44.5 lbs; mount 46.5 lbs; base plate 45 lbs.
Overall Length: 3 ft 9.5 in.
Muzzle velocity (HE): 700 f.p.s.
There is a hell of a difference in hitting a Mortar round at 700 fps, and a rocket at 2,264 fps.
That is a Mach 2.03 for the BM 21, rocket, a Mortar is Mach .6275, one hell of a difference in preformance profile.
Plus here is a little something I found, this is the range fans of the BM-21 system rockets. The rockets have a range of 12.7 miles / 20.4 km, now just how big will your proposed system have to be to defend the impact areas of the range fans?
The Katyusha Rocket "Multiple Rocket Launcher" BM-21 could be easily taken apart and smuggled into a "demilitarized" Palestinian state. Individual Katyushas can be launched from a pipe using just a car battery.
The speckled region to the left is the Tel Aviv metropolitan area, which houses some 70% of Israel's Jewish population and 80% of the country's industrial base. The West Bank is a mountainous region overlooking the Mediterranean coastal plain and Gaza is a seaside district with its own port. If Israel relinquishes military control over these regions, it will be impossible to prevent the smuggling of weapons such as the Katyusha. The potential implications are clear.
Rockets are not mortars, and their flight profile is much lower and faster than a mortar round.
All off the shelf systems that worked well for their assigned missions, yet when put together as another system, they tracked, targeted and destroyed a Latrine Fan, along with the latrine, instead of the incoming drone.
And again, rockets are not a high angle weapon, their trajectory is much lower and faster than a mortar round.
BM-21 "Grad"
Caliber 122.4 mm (4.81 in)
Barrels 40
Rate of fire 2 rounds/s
Muzzle velocity 690 m/s (2,264 ft/s)
Maximum range 20,400 m (22,310 yds)
Sights PG-1M panoramic telescope
A mortar is a muzzle-loading indirect fire weapon that fires shells at low velocities, short ranges, and high-arcing ballistic trajectories.
81mm M1 Mortar
FM 23-91:Mortar Gunnery
General Data
Weight: 136 lbs assembled; tube 44.5 lbs; mount 46.5 lbs; base plate 45 lbs.
Overall Length: 3 ft 9.5 in.
Muzzle velocity (HE): 700 f.p.s.
There is a hell of a difference in hitting a Mortar round at 700 fps, and a rocket at 2,264 fps.
That is a Mach 2.03 for the BM 21, rocket, a Mortar is Mach .6275, one hell of a difference in preformance profile.
Plus here is a little something I found, this is the range fans of the BM-21 system rockets. The rockets have a range of 12.7 miles / 20.4 km, now just how big will your proposed system have to be to defend the impact areas of the range fans?
The Katyusha Rocket "Multiple Rocket Launcher" BM-21 could be easily taken apart and smuggled into a "demilitarized" Palestinian state. Individual Katyushas can be launched from a pipe using just a car battery.
The speckled region to the left is the Tel Aviv metropolitan area, which houses some 70% of Israel's Jewish population and 80% of the country's industrial base. The West Bank is a mountainous region overlooking the Mediterranean coastal plain and Gaza is a seaside district with its own port. If Israel relinquishes military control over these regions, it will be impossible to prevent the smuggling of weapons such as the Katyusha. The potential implications are clear.
Rockets are not mortars, and their flight profile is much lower and faster than a mortar round.
Zak,
Your OP mixes up Christian with non-Christian (Buddhist). I think the real point of difference is that the west (and parts of the east) have secular institutions. Also, most people in the :West" and Far East see superstitions as only a very small part of their lives. We also are suspicious of too "religiously"-minded of a leader - and when we are not, we get a Bush Jr and you can see where that route goes. The day "Islamic" nations reach the level of education that the West and Far East have reached, will be the day they are no longer Islamic.
Muslims don't want to be secular.
In short, it's impossible to base a society around worshiping FSM's cousin, Fakih the Flying Falafel (FFF) and at the same time having a highly educated society. The two are completely incompatible. Ask yourself which is more important, prosperity, health and education or your superstition - because it's either one or the other.
Your OP mixes up Christian with non-Christian (Buddhist). I think the real point of difference is that the west (and parts of the east) have secular institutions. Also, most people in the :West" and Far East see superstitions as only a very small part of their lives. We also are suspicious of too "religiously"-minded of a leader - and when we are not, we get a Bush Jr and you can see where that route goes. The day "Islamic" nations reach the level of education that the West and Far East have reached, will be the day they are no longer Islamic.
Muslims don't want to be secular.
In short, it's impossible to base a society around worshiping FSM's cousin, Fakih the Flying Falafel (FFF) and at the same time having a highly educated society. The two are completely incompatible. Ask yourself which is more important, prosperity, health and education or your superstition - because it's either one or the other.
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