News from Gaza Part 2

[Bells]

then why you are justifying them? how come they are allowed to fire on civilians?

I don't justify violence. They shouldn't fire on civilians, just as Israel shouldn't fire on civilians. I never said their firing rockets into Israel was good. I was commenting on the disproportionate manner of Israel's response.

recognizing their government will have serious implications on the palestinians people. HAMAS are doing that for racist reasons. wouldnt you agree?

Hamas are a product of their circumstance. I was pointing out to you that they refuse to acknowledge Israel's legitimacy as much as Israel refuses to acknowledge their legitimacy as an elected Government.

Israel was not exactly understanding or friendly with Fatah either.

What the Palestinians need is a Government who will care for their well being. They voted for the political wing of Hamas, because they see Hamas as being resistance fighters against their oppression. I would imagine that if Israel did withdraw completely and stop encroaching on Palestinian lands, the Palestinians would build a sustainable Government. But at present, with the wall, the check points, the blockades.. it creates more enemies and will result in more hatred from the Palestinians and they will vote for the people they think will fight for their rights.

i have spoken with many bedoiuns. honest or not, they do not consider themselves as arabs, at least to the extent the term is used to describe current day arabs.

national service as far as i know, is not the IDF. druze are the most of loyal groups, they are not considered arabs by the arabs themselves. that is worse.

I found this comment interesting..

It is commonly felt among Palestinians that Israel's varying treatment of different Arab populations with Israeli citizenship, according to military service, is an extension of the British colonial strategy of 'Divide to Rule.' Druze often play high-ranking roles in elite guards involved in major operations in the Occupied Territories and Lebanon; Bedouin soldiers tend to occupy roles as Border policemen, keeping Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza (some of whom may be members of their extended family) out of Israel. These realities have facilitated a sharpened division between the Druze and Bedouin communities and the rest of the former and current inhabitants of Historic Palestine

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel#Self-identification_of_Muslims.2C_Christians_and_Druze

And Druze don't have much of a choice. They are forced to serve due to an agreement from 1956. There is apparently a growing movement amongst a minority of Druze end the terms of that agreement when it comes to serving in the IDF.

 

[Mr.Spock]

lets look at the facts. gaza elections held 2 years ago. hamas charter dates to 1988. claiming it is a result of israel actions is just ignorance.

second fact, fatah. arafat was politically dead. we were foolish to bring him and turn the fatah legit. for werent for us, nobody would have remembered Arafat or the fatah.

January 17, 1991, Abu Iyad was assassinated by the pro-Iraqi Abu Nidal Organization. Arafat's decision also severed relations with Egypt and many of the oil-producing Arab states that supported the US-led coalition. Many in the US also used Arafat's position as a reason to disregard his claims to being a partner for peace. After the end of hostilities, many Arab states that backed the coalition cut off funds to the PLO

 

[Huwy]

When you have a Mad Dog, the time comes when you have to put it down, Hamas is a Mad Dog and the Time has come to put it down, out of the Palestinian's Misery.

I seem to remember another ethnic group (or their leaders) compared with an undesirable animal in the same way you have, except this time it was a snake or parasite.

Its amazing the double standards that exist.

 

[Huwy]

Some quotes I found:

“If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”

David Ben-Gurion


“We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.”

David Ben-Gurion

 

[Buffalo Roam]

I'm sorry, you provide the original link, which I quoted from, and you're accusing me of pulling a fast one? How far down did you read sweetheart?

I shall quote again from your link..



That is the whole paragraph. Learn to not skim read or skip paragraphs in your own links. And also learn to use the scroll function and scroll down about half way, or use the contents menu at the top of the page and click on paragraph 4.2.. It's not that hard.

Again, before you start accusing me of pulling a fast one, remember I got those figures and that quote from a link you posted earlier on. So if you fail to read your links properly, that's your issue, not mine.

According to Peace Now, the number of settlers increased by 6,100 compared with 2004, to reach 250,000 in the West Bank

Yes, you are as Ma'ale Adumim, the city had a total population of 33,000 at the end of 2007.

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=2&x_article=1301


March 16, 2007 by Alex Safian, PhD

Peace Now’s Blunder: Erred on Ma'ale Adumim Land by 15,900 Percent

Peace Now, the Israel-based advocacy group, claimed in an October 2006 report that Israeli settlements are situated mostly on “private Palestinian land,” and in particular that the territory of the largest settlement, Ma’ale Adumim, is 86.4 percent “private Palestinian land.” CAMERA raised a number of serious objections (here and here) to Peace Now’s claims, which the group has failed to address.

The original report, Breaking the Law – One Violation Leads to Another, was based on information described as leaked government data, and now, through Israel’s Freedom of Information laws, Peace Now has gained access to updated information which it portrays as confirming its original claims. However Peace Now has had to admit that it made a massive error regarding Ma’ale Adumim, a 15,900 percent mistake. Rather than 86.4% Palestinian land, the new data shows just 0.54% of Ma’ale Adumim’s land as supposedly Palestinian. In addition, Peace Now deceptively omits any mention of this extremely serious error both in its press release posted on its US website, and in the announcement posted on its Israeli website. Only in the middle of its updated report, strangely enough entitled Guilty, does Peace Now get around to its updated claims regarding Ma’ale Adumim’s land.

In addition, nowhere in its updated report does Peace Now deal with the broader problems that also afflicted its earlier report:

1. Peace Now is relying upon government maps that are based not on Palestinian ownership of land, but on Palestinian claims to ownership of land. With Ma’ale Adumim, for example, there were indeed Palestinian (more accurately Bedouin) claims over the land, but they were investigated and found to be baseless, as even the claimants eventually admitted. That would perhaps explain why there was a huge change in the map in this case.


2. Peace Now continues to misleadingly ignore crucial details of land law in the West Bank, in particular that:

(A) Under the Ottoman Land code which Israel inherited largely intact from previous sovereigns, most of the West Bank land used by Israeli settlements, being quite far from other built up areas, is mewat or waste land, which is always owned by the state and cannot legally be owned by private individuals.

(B) Any land used by the settlements which was not mewat land was almost certainly miri land, which means land of the Emir, or the sovereign. Miri land is state land over which a private individual can gain certain rights of use by the fact of cultivation, something like squatters’ rights. Those rights expire, however, once the land is no longer being cultivated, but the fact that someone once had rights to use the land (as long as hundreds of years ago) may still be recorded in the land registry, even long after the rights have expired. Peace Now apparently is counting as “private Palestinian land” any land over which any Palestinian ever gained such rights via cultivation. Which renders their term “private Palestinian land” meaningless.

In their original report Peace Now charged that Israel “deprived thousands of Palestinians of the basic human right of possession.” We challenged them then, and we repeat that challenge now – If they claim the land is “private Palestinian land,” let them name the owners. Which persons owned this land, what are their names, what were the boundaries of the plots and where are the deeds? If they can’t answer such obvious and basic questions, their original and updated claims are nothing short of reckless.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

Hamas is willing to sacrifice its people to die a martyr death. They wont raise a white flag so easily.

So they die easily enough.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

Some quotes I found:

“If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”

David Ben-Gurion


“We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.”

David Ben-Gurion

Source?

 

[pjdude1219]

all those accusations were never proven and what is the point of a country without the very poeple it was supposed to help?

and if you are saying you would do the same, then i have nothing to add.

So your saying you wouldn't work with the enemy of your occupier? Because thats all I'm saying I would do. and history is full of examples of people working with the enemies of their occupiers. Hell the americans did in the american revalution.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

So your saying you wouldn't work with the enemy of your occupier? Because thats all I'm saying I would do. and history is full of examples of people working with the enemies of their occupiers. Hell the americans did in the american revalution.

The weren't occupied by the Jews in WWII.

 

[pjdude1219]

The weren't occupied by the Jews in WWII.

I'm sorry. But these honestly needs to be asked after this are you stupid? Do you know how to read? What you have just posted in response to my post in no uncertain terms could never be considered an intelligent response. I was talking about jews in palestine being willing to work with the nazis to get their own state. ie. be willing to work with the enemy( the nazis) of their occupier(the british). I have no idea what the what your talking about.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

Hamas was warned by Egypt:

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/12/30/mideast/border.php

Egypt would only reopen the Rafah crossing when the Palestinian faction Hamas reconciles with the Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas of Fatah, and allows him to reassert his authority over all of Palestine, including Gaza, Mubarak said Tuesday in a nationally televised speech.

"We in Egypt are not going to contribute to perpetuating the rift by opening the Rafah crossing in the absence of the Palestinian Authority and European Union observers," as called for in a 2005 agreement opening Rafah that was negotiated with Abbas, Israel and the United States.

Mubarak condemned Israel's "savage aggression," said Israel's "blood-stained hands are stirring up feelings of enormous anger" and called for an immediate cease-fire.

But in a riposte to Arab critics who live at a distance, Mubarak said: "We say to those who are trying to make political capital out of the plight of the Palestinian people that Palestinian blood has a price." He told the Palestinians "to restore your unity" and said he had warned Hamas leaders that ending the six-month truce with Israel would bring new Israeli attacks.

Bakr, the war veteran, refused to believe it when told of Mubarak's speech. "Mubarak could not say something so wrong," Bakr said. "The Palestinians are his brothers."

 

[Buffalo Roam]

I'm sorry. But these honestly needs to be asked after this are you stupid? Do you know how to read? What you have just posted in response to my post in no uncertain terms could never be considered an intelligent response. I was talking about jews in palestine being willing to work with the nazis to get their own state. ie. be willing to work with the enemy( the nazis) of their occupier(the british). I have no idea what the what your talking about.

And just How stupid are you?

Einsatzgruppe Egypt (German: Einsatzgruppe Ägypten) was a special mobile SS death squad, which was to carry out a mass killing of Jews in British mandate of Palestine similar to the way they operated in eastern Europe. "Einsatzgruppe Egypt" was standing by in Athens and was ready to disembark for Palestine in the summer of 1942, attached to the "Afrika Korps" led by the famed desert commander General Erwin Rommel. The Middle East death squad, similar to those operating throughout eastern Europe during the war, was to be led by SS Obersturmbannfuehrer Walther Rauff. [1]. In 2006 historians Klaus-Michael Mallman and Martin Cüppers published Halbmond und Hakenkreuz: Das dritte Reich, die Araber und Palästina [Crescent moon and swastika: The Third Reich, the Arabs, and Palestine] (Darmstadt: Wissenschaftliche Buchgesellschaft); the book is a study of Einsatzgruppe Egypt and Nazi plans for mass annilihation of Jews in the Middle East with the support of the Haj Amin al-Husseini, who had been Grand Mufti of Jerusalem from 1922 to 1937 and who continued to hold considerable influence in the region.

Mohammad Amin al-Husayni was the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem during the height of the Third Reich, and collaborated closely with the Nazi regime on an issue of mutual interest: the extermination of the Jews. He was particularly involved with Nazi operations in the Balkans, where Muslims from Bosnia and Serbia were actively recruited for the Waffen SS.

As a matter of interest, the Grand Mufti was also a cousin of Yasser Arafat, whose real name was Abd al-Rahman abd al-Bauf Arafat al-Qud al-Husayni. Arafat later shortened it for public consumption, in order to conceal his kinship with the old Nazi collaborator. However, he continued to revere his relative, referring to him privately as “my uncle”.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

I'm sorry. But these honestly needs to be asked after this are you stupid? Do you know how to read? What you have just posted in response to my post in no uncertain terms could never be considered an intelligent response. I was talking about jews in palestine being willing to work with the nazis to get their own state. ie. be willing to work with the enemy( the nazis) of their occupier(the british). I have no idea what the what your talking about.

Well to understand a intelligent response, first you must have intelligence.

 

[Bells]

Yes, you are as Ma'ale Adumim, the city had a total population of 33,000 at the end of 2007.

Then so be it. I was wrong to quote from a link you provided that had the incorrect information in it.

Einsatzgruppe Egypt (German: Einsatzgruppe Ägypten) was a special mobile SS death squad, which was to carry out a mass killing of Jews in British mandate of Palestine similar to the way they operated in eastern Europe. "Einsatzgruppe Egypt" was standing by in Athens and was ready to disembark for Palestine in the summer of 1942, attached to the "Afrika Korps" led by the famed desert commander General Erwin Rommel. The Middle East death squad, similar to those operating throughout eastern Europe during the war, was to be led by SS Obersturmbannfuehrer Walther Rauff. [1]. In 2006 historians Klaus-Michael Mallman and Martin Cüppers published Halbmond und Hakenkreuz: Das dritte Reich, die Araber und Palästina [Crescent moon and swastika: The Third Reich, the Arabs, and Palestine] (Darmstadt: Wissenschaftliche Buchgesellschaft); the book is a study of Einsatzgruppe Egypt and Nazi plans for mass annilihation of Jews in the Middle East with the support of the Haj Amin al-Husseini, who had been Grand Mufti of Jerusalem from 1922 to 1937 and who continued to hold considerable influence in the region.

Yes. But the Lehi still attempted to contact the Nazi's.. they had a mutual enemy and the Lehi wanted to remove all the Jews out of Europe and thus, out of the concentration camps. So the Lehi wanted to compromise with the Nazi's. They would help the Nazi's defeat the British, especially in the Middle East and the Nazi's would ship the Jews to Israel, under the proviso that a Jewish State would exist.. So the Lehi would have saved the Jews and defeated their enemy, the British, and the Nazi's would have defeated the British and achieved their aim of removing the Jews from Europe. You don't seem to be grasping the fact that it was the Lehi who attempted to contact the Nazi's with their proposal. The Nazi's never responded to their initial contact. It is easy to guess why the Nazi's never responded.. eg. the Nazi's wished to eliminate and eradicate all Jews from the planet and would hardly have helped a Jewish group establish a Jewish State in the Middle East. You can say as much as you want about some Muslims in the region agreeing with the Nazi's. We all know that. It is history. It still does not take away from the fact that the Lehi did attempt to contact the Nazi's to try to bring up some form of collaborative measure to defeat the British in the ME and to get the Jews out of Europe, thereby saving them.

 

[pjdude1219]

And just How stupid are you?

Einsatzgruppe Egypt (German: Einsatzgruppe Ägypten) was a special mobile SS death squad, which was to carry out a mass killing of Jews in British mandate of Palestine similar to the way they operated in eastern Europe. "Einsatzgruppe Egypt" was standing by in Athens and was ready to disembark for Palestine in the summer of 1942, attached to the "Afrika Korps" led by the famed desert commander General Erwin Rommel. The Middle East death squad, similar to those operating throughout eastern Europe during the war, was to be led by SS Obersturmbannfuehrer Walther Rauff. [1]. In 2006 historians Klaus-Michael Mallman and Martin Cüppers published Halbmond und Hakenkreuz: Das dritte Reich, die Araber und Palästina [Crescent moon and swastika: The Third Reich, the Arabs, and Palestine] (Darmstadt: Wissenschaftliche Buchgesellschaft); the book is a study of Einsatzgruppe Egypt and Nazi plans for mass annilihation of Jews in the Middle East with the support of the Haj Amin al-Husseini, who had been Grand Mufti of Jerusalem from 1922 to 1937 and who continued to hold considerable influence in the region.

Mohammad Amin al-Husayni was the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem during the height of the Third Reich, and collaborated closely with the Nazi regime on an issue of mutual interest: the extermination of the Jews. He was particularly involved with Nazi operations in the Balkans, where Muslims from Bosnia and Serbia were actively recruited for the Waffen SS.

As a matter of interest, the Grand Mufti was also a cousin of Yasser Arafat, whose real name was Abd al-Rahman abd al-Bauf Arafat al-Qud al-Husayni. Arafat later shortened it for public consumption, in order to conceal his kinship with the old Nazi collaborator. However, he continued to revere his relative, referring to him privately as “my uncle”.

none of which has anything to do with the point I was making. You have none shame do you. your intentionally misrepresenting my point. For the last fucking time I'm not talking about the arabs so why the fuck are you in your response to me.

 

[pjdude1219]

Well to understand a intelligent response, first you must have intelligence.

Well if you want to call your self stupid go right ahead. I'll agree with you yes you are stupid.

and please for the love of god if your going to respond to my points please remove your head from ass and actually address the point being made instead of something else.

 

[pjdude1219]

Bells you read my post could you try and explain it to him.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

Well if you want to call your self stupid go right ahead. I'll agree with you yes you are stupid.

and please for the love of god if your going to respond to my points please remove your head from ass and actually address the point being made instead of something else.

Some actual citation of fact and site, for your ramblings might be in order, as all you have done is make a statement backed by nothing but your vaunted self education.

You still need to fire that teacher.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

Then so be it. I was wrong to quote from a link you provided that had the incorrect information in it.


Yes. But the Lehi still attempted to contact the Nazi's.. they had a mutual enemy and the Lehi wanted to remove all the Jews out of Europe and thus, out of the concentration camps. So the Lehi wanted to compromise with the Nazi's. They would help the Nazi's defeat the British, especially in the Middle East and the Nazi's would ship the Jews to Israel, under the proviso that a Jewish State would exist.. So the Lehi would have saved the Jews and defeated their enemy, the British, and the Nazi's would have defeated the British and achieved their aim of removing the Jews from Europe. You don't seem to be grasping the fact that it was the Lehi who attempted to contact the Nazi's with their proposal. The Nazi's never responded to their initial contact. It is easy to guess why the Nazi's never responded.. eg. the Nazi's wished to eliminate and eradicate all Jews from the planet and would hardly have helped a Jewish group establish a Jewish State in the Middle East. You can say as much as you want about some Muslims in the region agreeing with the Nazi's. We all know that. It is history. It still does not take away from the fact that the Lehi did attempt to contact the Nazi's to try to bring up some form of collaborative measure to defeat the British in the ME and to get the Jews out of Europe, thereby saving them.

Bells it is called checking your source, it didn't take long to blow your Peace Now propaganda out of the Water and show it for what for what it was.

Really you know it is history?, some site reference please.

But it didn't go very far did it?

Not as Far as the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Haj Amin al-Husseini, and the Einsatzgruppe Ägypten.

So how about a Historical Reference?

 

[Buffalo Roam]

So your saying you wouldn't work with the enemy of your occupier? Because thats all I'm saying I would do. and history is full of examples of people working with the enemies of their occupiers. Hell the americans did in the american revalution.

Yes, a comment made two pages later with no context, you still need to fire that teacher.

Originally Posted by pjdude1219
first of there was not really a betrayal of the jews by them. They wanted the nazis to send the european jewry to palestine. Something that the creation of a jewish state would have caused anyway. Secondly in assuming they didn't contact the nazis IMO your assuming that they were stupid. If I'm trying to gain my independence from some occuping my home I am going to ally myself with their primary enemy. The british's primary enemy was germany. It would make sense that they would have at least made an overture. whether they thought it had a chance of being accepted is a whole different ballgame.

Yes, and for every Jew the Germans agreed to release and send to Palestine, they were paid a ransom to release them.

Until the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Haj Amin al-Husseini arrived in Berlin, then the Germans stopped sending Jews to Palestine and sent them to the Gas Chambers of the extermination camps.

You can show no actual connection, if you can post the URL to the site.