News from Gaza Part 2

[Mr.Spock]

So retaliation is just, even when it is so grossly disproportionate? For example, if I shoot at you with a water gun, you would be justified in retaliating with a 1000 kilogram bomb? Okay then.

Israeli airstrikes have pounded the territory since Saturday in an effort to halt the firing of rockets into southern Israel, with more than 390 Palestinians killed, according to Palestinian medical sources. They said 1,900 people are wounded, including 400 women and children.

Israeli sources say four Israelis have been killed by Palestinian rocket fire.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/12/31/gaza.israel/index.html
​

Lets see.. Rockets kill 4 Israelis and in return, they kill over 390 Palestinians and injure 1,900, including 400 women and children.. I don't know about you, but to me that seems like a ridiculous and disproportionate response in retaliation.

youre a liar. not that i accept any of your arguments, which are childish at best, the 400 dead are not women and children.

Palestinian sources said the raids killed several civilians, along with Hamas police and military officers, and Arab television channels on Saturday showed images of battered bodies and body parts.

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip – Israeli warplanes rained more than 100 tons of bombs on security installations in Hamas-ruled Gaza on Saturday, killing at least 230 people in one of the bloodiest days in decades of the mideast conflict. The government said the open-ended campaign was aimed at stopping rocket and mortar attacks that have traumatized southern Israel.

More than 400 people were also wounded. Most of the casualties were security forces, but Palestinian officials said at least 15 civilians were among the dead.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

The term 'analogy' escapes you, doesn't it?

Do you know the difference between a water gun and a High Explosive Rocket?

 

[Mr.Spock]

The term 'analogy' escapes you, doesn't it?


And Israel has been encroaching on the little land they have left, building walls to keep them out of their own lands, refusing them the right to use roads, forcing them to go through checkpoints on a daily basis, taking their water and farms, invading them constantly, killing and shooting their children (even when they are playing or walking home from school). Tell me, if someone came and took all you owned, denied you the right to your basic human rights, killed members of your family, denied you the right to move freely, you'd nod and say "okay"? Ya right. Why do you think they shell Israeli towns Buffalo? Because they're bored? Or because they have been denied and refused their basic human rights and forced to live in refugee camps while the Israeli's exercise their right of return right onto Palestinian lands? Is it possibly because the Israeli's control the Palestinian borders, so much so that a family wanting to visit his family in the next town has to get Israeli permission and sit for hours on end at checkpoints, where soldiers continuously beat and harass civilians.

And you somehow think that the deaths of 4 Israeli's from those rockets somehow justifies the deaths of 390 people and 1900 injuries, many of whom are women and children? And you have the gall to call the victims of Israel's attacks, even the women and children, fools? You call a child killed by an Israeli soldier a fool? I wonder, if the 390 dead and the 1900 injured were Israeli's, whether you'd be calling them fools or victims. There are no words to even describe what I think of you at the moment.


Are you kidding me?

How can they build infrastructure or industry when they are being constantly forced off their lands, where what little land they have left is being encroached upon by the Israeli's and taken from them? Not to mention the Israeli theft of their water and farm land. What Industry can people in refugee ghetto's have?

They pursued what you would have in their place. You always harp on about your right to arms to defend yourself against tyranny. Well guess what, Buffalo, the Palestinians are defending their right against tyranny and have been doing so for 60 years.

You carry on as if Israel has been innocent for the whole of the 60 years. Israel's actions for the past 60 years have been acts of war.


So to bring peace upon them is to kill them, kill the innocent women and children. Right? That's what you're saying, isn't it? So even as the Israeli's come and take more of their land, we need to expect them to simply lie down and take it.. move off gently and act peacefully. Right? You'd do that if it was done to you? Someone comes to your door and tells you that you have 30 minutes to pack your belongings and leave so that another family can take over your house and land, you'd hand over the keys, bend over and kiss their arse and simply let them have it.. peacefully? Right. Because that is what you expect the Palestinians to do.

The Palestinians will lose the war, not because they are wrong. But because they are outgunned by a State that has the full backing of the US. But here's the thing, the Palestinian civilians will win the moral war against the Israeli's and the hatred from the generations that are growing up will be even worse.

its a shame you have to emphasis lying to make a false stand. Israel has suffered 8 years of rocket attacks with patient and with no military response. during the last week, hamas fired constantly on israel, with over 100 rockets a day. they have made life impossible. not only that, but they themselves boastfully denied the cease fire, confident in their power. they cant complain now.

 

[pjdude1219]

youre a liar. not that i accept any of your arguments, which are childish at best, the 400 dead are not women and children.

english is clearly not your first language. the 400 was part of the 1900 injured.
the line was 1900 injured including 400 woman and children.

 

[Mr.Spock]

The Palestinian's voted them as their leaders. Do you really think making martyrs of Hamas in that part of the world will stop the conflict?

and lets see what they have chosen:

That is why, with all our appreciation for The Palestinian Liberation Organization - and what it can develop into - and without belittling its role in the Arab-Israeli conflict, we are unable to exchange the present or future Islamic Palestine with the secular idea. The Islamic nature of Palestine is part of our religion and whoever takes his religion lightly is a loser.

World Zionism, together with imperialistic powers, try through a studied plan and an intelligent strategy to remove one Arab state after another from the circle of struggle against Zionism, in order to have it finally face the Palestinian people only. Egypt was, to a great extent, removed from the circle of the struggle, through the treacherous Camp David Agreement. They are trying to draw other Arab countries into similar agreements and to bring them outside the circle of struggle.

Moreover, if the links have been distant from each other and if obstacles, placed by those who are the lackeys of Zionism in the way of the fighters obstructed the continuation of the struggle, the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation of Allah's promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said:

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).

 

[Mr.Spock]

english is clearly not your first language. the 400 was part of the 1900 injured.
the line was 1900 injured including 400 woman and children.

for once you are right. my apologizes

 

[Bells]

i suggest you read back as well, i never said they were heroes because they wrote songs which is what i dared PJ to do, but they were heroes never the less who scarified their life for others. their position unlike the hagana was an active fight against the british who denied access to jewish survivors of the holocaust, the same british who wanted to move the survivors to russia and them siberia. I commented before on that dubious document, that other then wiki there is no real authentication behind it. there are some things they did which as i said i do not fully agree with, but in the context of that conversation to affiliate them with treason by connections with the NAZIS goes against everything they stood for, and from that point of view, the people that made out the lehi were heroes who did everything to save the lives of their fellow brothers.

i know its sounds romantic to accuse them of that 60+ years later but it is simply isnt true. i know people from the lehi, irgun and even hagana. you cant convince me with that BS.

when you try to bite someone, make sure you have teeth to do it.

and ZAK, do me a favor and save me your bickering. you are not that clever.

You still don't know, do you? Their connections with the Nazi's was done in their bid to establish the state of Israel. They would have helped the Nazi's fight against the British and the Nazi's would have sent them all the Jews in Europe. It is neither romantic nor untrue. It is basic fact and fairly common knowledge. No one needs to accuse them of it. There are documents to prove that they did it.. the letters they wrote to the Nazi's still exist. Your attempt to deny history on the basis that Jews would never do something like that is childish.

You didn't call them heroes? Lets see what you wrote, shall we?

you are not an israeli, you never met a lehi activist. this guys gave their lives for future generations-they even wrote a song about their sacrifice.

Sounds like hero worship to me.

youre a liar. not that i accept any of your arguments, which are childish at best, the 400 dead are not women and children.

I am a liar? From the one who denied hero worshiping a terrorist organisation who wanted to collaborate with the Nazi's to help defeat the British and then tried to deny it. And you're calling me a liar? HAHAHAAA!!

So how am I a liar, Spock? Am I a liar for daring to post a report from CNN and a link to back it up? This is from the UN.

Hundreds of Palestinians killed and over 1500 injured—in three days
Exact casualty figures are impossible to provide at this juncture. However, several humanitarian and human rights organizations including Al Mezan, PCHR, and UNRWA, as well as healthcare providers, have estimated as many as 310-390 fatalities and 1500-1800 Palestinians injured in the first three days. At least 32 Palestinian children were killed in the first 48 hours of airstrikes.

http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/47d4e277b48d9d3685256ddc00612265/7e435793994eebdd85257530006e7db4!OpenDocument

Are the UN liars too?

Or just me in particular? You see Spock, I take great offense at being called a liar. So unless you have proof that I am lying in particular, then I'd suggest you retract that accusation immediately.

At least I provide links and sources to my quotes. You haven't even done that yet, have you?

 

[Buffalo Roam]

They pursued what you would have in their place. You always harp on about your right to arms to defend yourself against tyranny. Well guess what, Buffalo, the Palestinians are defending their right against tyranny and have been doing so for 60 years.

Bullshit, There was no Tyranny in the U.N. Resolution 181.

The Tyranny started when the Arabs decided in contravention of the Treaty, they had signed upon joining the U.N., and went to war to murder Israel even before it was a Nation.

The Tyranny is the constant attacks against Israel, 60 years of endless attacks, murder, mayhem, and terror, all for a war that was lost 60 years ago.

The Palestinians could have had their land as delineated in U.N. Resolution 181, all they had to do was accept the Peace, but they didn't they chose the path of war, and for 60 years they have killed not only Israelis but their own in a useless war.

I have no sympathy for them, they don't deserve it, Israel has offered Peace, starting in 1948:

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_independence_war_start.php

On May 14, 1948 David Ben-Gurion read Israel's Proclamation of Independence in Tel Aviv. It included these paragraphs:

We appeal ... to the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve peace and participate in the building-up of the state on the basis of full and equal citizenship and representation in all its ... institutions.

We extend our hand to all neighbouring states and their peoples in an offer of peace and goodwill, and appeal to them to establish bonds of cooperation and mutual help with the sovereign Jewish people settled in its own land.

And was answered by the Arabs:

The Arabs, inside and outside the territory defined for the State of Israel, gave no consideration to these offers of peace or the many other attempts to negotiate a settlement. Immediately following the declaration of the State of Israel on May 14, 1948 and the departure of the British the next day, the five Arab armies invaded Israel. Their intentions were declared by Azzam Pasha, Secretary-General of the Arab League:


This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades.

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_independence_war_start.php

The UN blamed the Arabs for the violence. The UN Palestine Commission was never permitted by the Arabs or British to go to Palestine to implement the resolution. On February 16, 1948, the Commission reported to the Security Council:

Powerful Arab interests, both inside and outside Palestine, are defying the resolution of the General Assembly and are engaged in a deliberate effort to alter by force the settlement envisaged therein.

The Arabs were blunt in taking responsibility for starting the war. Jamal Husseini told the Security Council on April 16, 1948:

The representative of the Jewish Agency told us yesterday that they were not the attackers, that the Arabs had begun the fighting. We did not deny this. We told the whole world that we were going to fight.

 

[pjdude1219]

for once you are right. my apologizes

we all fuck up on occasion nothing to do but learn any lessons from them there might be and move on.

 

[Mr.Spock]

And Israel has been encroaching on the little land they have left, building walls to keep them out of their own lands, refusing them the right to use roads, forcing them to go through checkpoints on a daily basis, taking their water and farms, invading them constantly, killing and shooting their children (even when they are playing or walking home from school). Tell me, if someone came and took all you owned, denied you the right to your basic human rights,

hamas has denied palestinians of their human rights on a daily basis, not just because they are fundamentalists, but they use the palestinians to promote their efforts.

Egypt on Sunday blamed Hamas for not letting hundreds of Palestinians wounded by Israeli air strikes leave the Gaza Strip for treatment, with dozens of empty ambulances waiting on the border.

Hamas militiamen in the Gaza Strip on Sunday attacked fuel trucks headed toward the Nahal Oz border crossing, forcing them to turn back, sources in the Palestinian Petroleum Authority said.

The fuel was supposed to go to the UN Relief and Works Agency [UNRWA] and hospitals in the Gaza Strip, the sources said.

 

[pjdude1219]

Ben-Gurion isn't that the same dick who said in private that the jews would accept whatever they were given and conquer the rest later.

 

[Bells]

its a shame you have to emphasis lying to make a false stand. Israel has suffered 8 years of rocket attacks with patient and with no military response. during the last week, hamas fired constantly on israel, with over 100 rockets a day. they have made life impossible. not only that, but they themselves boastfully denied the cease fire, confident in their power. they cant complain now.

And Israel has been encroaching on Palestinian lands, forcing them to live in refugee ghetto's, building a wall across their land, again, denying them the right to access their land and farms, Israel has been blockading them for years and years, they have also been bombing and shelling Palestinian civilians for years and years, they have invaded on and off for years and years. I guess you don't put any emphasis on that, eh, Spock. You're telling me that the Israeli army has not entered Palestinian lands in over 8 years? Right.. You don't get the local news where you live in Israel, do you? As Iceaura pointed out, Hamas hasn't been in power that long.

But lets have a little look at your response. They have made your life impossible, so to retaliate, we shall just bomb the living shit out of them.. a couple of Israeli's dead justifies your killing nearly 400 Palestinians, and injuring 1900 or so more, many of whom are women and children? You're telling me that Israel's response has been proportionate? You're saying the deaths have somehow been proportionate in Israel's response? I mean we'll just forget how the lives of the innocent Palestinian civilians have been made impossible by the fact that they have no electricity, fuel, water or food and by the fact that they are having to flee as their homes are blown apart around them.. yeah.. we'll ignore that and concentrate solely on how your life has been made difficult.

I never denied that Israel hasn't been hit by rockets. So again, prove where I am lying.

 

[Mr.Spock]

You still don't know, do you? Their connections with the Nazi's was done in their bid to establish the state of Israel. They would have helped the Nazi's fight against the British and the Nazi's would have sent them all the Jews in Europe. It is neither romantic nor untrue. It is basic fact and fairly common knowledge. No one needs to accuse them of it. There are documents to prove that they did it.. the letters they wrote to the Nazi's still exist. Your attempt to deny history on the basis that Jews would never do something like that is childish.

You didn't call them heroes? Lets see what you wrote, shall we?

dont rape my post i never said they werent heroes, i even said it again.

i looked into that subject myself, other than that letter there is no source or reason to think they would betray their fellow jews just for a state. that would made no sense at all.

I am a liar? From the one who denied hero worshiping a terrorist organisation who wanted to collaborate with the Nazi's to help defeat the British and then tried to deny it. And you're calling me a liar? HAHAHAAA!!

when have i denied calling them heroes? i have denied pj claim that i called them heroes because they had a song, a claim i never made.

So how am I a liar, Spock? Am I a liar for daring to post a report from CNN and a link to back it up? This is from the UN.

yes, you are.

Are the UN liars too?

Or just me in particular? You see Spock, I take great offense at being called a liar. So unless you have proof that I am lying in particular, then I'd suggest you retract that accusation immediately.

At least I provide links and sources to my quotes. You haven't even done that yet, have you?

i already said i misunderstood that.

 

[pjdude1219]

i looked into that subject myself, other than that letter there is no source or reason to think they would betray their fellow jews just for a state. that would made no sense at all.

first of there was not really a betrayal of the jews by them. They wanted the nazis to send the european jewry to palestine. Something that the creation of a jewish state would have caused anyway. Secondly in assuming they didn't contact the nazis IMO your assuming that they were stupid. If I'm trying to gain my independence from some occuping my home I am going to ally myself with their primary enemy. The british's primary enemy was germany. It would make sense that they would have at least made an overture. whether they thought it had a chance of being accepted is a whole different ballgame.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

And Israel has been encroaching on Palestinian lands, forcing them to live in refugee ghetto's, building a wall across their land, again, denying them the right to access their land and farms, Israel has been blockading them for years and years, they have also been bombing and shelling Palestinian civilians for years and years, they have invaded on and off for years and years. I guess you don't put any emphasis on that, eh, Spock. You're telling me that the Israeli army has not entered Palestinian lands in over 8 years? Right.. You don't get the local news where you live in Israel, do you? As Iceaura pointed out, Hamas hasn't been in power that long.

But lets have a little look at your response. They have made your life impossible, so to retaliate, we shall just bomb the living shit out of them.. a couple of Israeli's dead justifies your killing nearly 400 Palestinians, and injuring 1900 or so more, many of whom are women and children? You're telling me that Israel's response has been proportionate? You're saying the deaths have somehow been proportionate in Israel's response? I mean we'll just forget how the lives of the innocent Palestinian civilians have been made impossible by the fact that they have no electricity, fuel, water or food and by the fact that they are having to flee as their homes are blown apart around them.. yeah.. we'll ignore that and concentrate solely on how your life has been made difficult.

I never denied that Israel hasn't been hit by rockets. So again, prove where I am lying.

Really Bells? Do you understand unilateral disengagement?

All the Israels have gotten for unilateral disengagement is more Suicide Bombings and Rocket Attacks.

Israel's unilateral disengagement plan - Wikipedia, the free...
Israel with the West Bank, Gaza Strip and Golan Heights ..... and instead call for a complete withdrawal from the West Bank and Gaza Strip. ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel's_unilateral_disengagement_plan

How about the Oslo Accords, Israel gave the Palestinians 95% of what they demanded.

Oslo Accords - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
History of the peace process. Camp David Accords · Madrid Conference ..... Bill Clinton - US president who encouraged the parties to meet and negotiate, ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oslo_Accords - 134k - Similar pages

All the Israels have gotten for Oslo Accords, is more Suicide Bombings and Rocket Attacks.


BBC NEWS | Middle East | Israel completes Gaza withdrawal
Sep 12, 2005 ... Israeli troops pull out of Gaza after 38 years, leaving its empty Jewish settlements to jubilant Palestinian forces.

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4235768.stm - 48k - Similar pages

Israel Completes Evacuation of Gaza and West Bank Settlers -...
SANUR, West Bank, Aug. 23 - Israeli soldiers and police completed the evacuation .... THE GAZA WITHDRAWAL: THE EVACUATION; Tearfully but Forcefully, Israel ...

www.nytimes.com/2005/08/23/international/middleeast/23cnd-... - Similar pages


Bells now tell me that it is the Israelis who are at fault.

 

[Bells]

Bullshit, There was no Tyranny in the U.N. Resolution 181.

The Tyranny started when the Arabs decided in contravention of the Treaty, they had signed upon joining the U.N., and went to war to murder Israel even before it was a Nation.

The Tyranny is the constant attacks against Israel, 60 years of endless attacks, murder, mayhem, and terror, all for a war that was lost 60 years ago.

The Palestinians could have had their land as delineated in U.N. Resolution 181, all they had to do was accept the Peace, but they didn't they chose the path of war, and for 60 years they have killed not only Israelis but their own in a useless war.

I have no sympathy for them, they don't deserve it, Israel has offered Peace, starting in 1948:

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_independence_war_start.php

On May 14, 1948 David Ben-Gurion read Israel's Proclamation of Independence in Tel Aviv. It included these paragraphs:



And was answered by the Arabs:



http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_independence_war_start.php

And you'd accept being forced off your land in the first place? You'd accept being given a few minutes to a few hours to pack your belongings and vacate your house and land so that another family could move right in? You wouldn't want to go to war against a group of people who did that to you and those around you? Heh.. Don't make me laugh. You're the one who constantly defends your right to arms in case your Government becomes tyrannical and you are defending the people who removed others from their homes, took their land and continue to do so today? It's bad enough they did it in the first place, but for them to continue to do it in all that time.. as you said earlier.. 60 years.. And you blame the Palestinians for wanting to retaliate? Yes the war was lost, but the actions from that war continue today. Israel was not happy with what they took in the war and have continued to encroach and take Palestinian land since the war ended. Or are you somehow forgetting that little fact?

Oh, and if you want to be taken seriously, I'd suggest you use a slightly less biased source. Reading through the links provided from your link.. HAHAHAA..

 

[Bells]

dont rape my post i never said they werent heroes, i even said it again.

i looked into that subject myself, other than that letter there is no source or reason to think they would betray their fellow jews just for a state. that would made no sense at all.



when have i denied calling them heroes? i have denied pj claim that i called them heroes because they had a song, a claim i never made.



yes, you are.



i already said i misunderstood that.

Thanks for making my point.

And again, prove where I lied. I expect links as well Spock. I take such accusations very very seriously. So I expect you to prove it or retract it.

 

[pjdude1219]

i have denied pj claim that i called them heroes because they had a song, a claim i never made.

I never claimed you said that they were heroes because they had a song I claimed you said they weren't terrorist because they had a song. Which I will admit you didn't actually say persay but it was implied considering the surrounding debate.

 

[Mr.Spock]

And Israel has been encroaching on Palestinian lands, forcing them to live in refugee ghetto's, building a wall across their land, again, denying them the right to access their land and farms, Israel has been blockading them for years and years, they have also been bombing and shelling Palestinian civilians for years and years, they have invaded on and off for years and years. I guess you don't put any emphasis on that, eh, Spock. You're telling me that the Israeli army has not entered Palestinian lands in over 8 years? Right.. You don't get the local news where you live in Israel, do you? As Iceaura pointed out, Hamas hasn't been in power that long.

from 1948 to 1967 israel wasnt in control on either gaza or the west bank jordan and egypt were. they help create the palestinian situation for their own political gains. when the palestinians back fired and tried a coupe to overthrow the jordanian king, nobody protested on black septmeber.

other than that emotional baseless response, palestiniand have their share of violence. how can you complain when you teach your kids it is ok to kill jews and that they are apes and pigs?

not taking out from fatah, saying HAMAS are just defending themselves because they are poor and oppressed? you shuld check your facts, starting with hamas declared intentions.

But lets have a little look at your response. They have made your life impossible, so to retaliate, we shall just bomb the living shit out of them.. a couple of Israeli's dead justifies your killing nearly 400 Palestinians, and injuring 1900 or so more, many of whom are women and children? You're telling me that Israel's response has been proportionate? You're saying the deaths have somehow been proportionate in Israel's response? I mean we'll just forget how the lives of the innocent Palestinian civilians have been made impossible by the fact that they have no electricity, fuel, water or food and by the fact that they are having to flee as their homes are blown apart around them.. yeah.. we'll ignore that and concentrate solely on how your life has been made difficult.

I never denied that Israel hasn't been hit by rockets. So again, prove where I am lying.

wars arent supposed to be proportional. if someone attacks your civilian by force, you can strike back even harder. no you have to strike back harder. whats the point of having a state and an army then?

its the moral thing to do.

 

[Mr.Spock]

Thanks for making my point.

And again, prove where I lied. I expect links as well Spock. I take such accusations very very seriously. So I expect you to prove it or retract it.

you said that i denied they were heroes. did i misunderstood you?