sculptor
Valued Senior Member
OK,
So: Why did they need that option?
Most Americans say abortion should be legal
- Thread starter James R
- Start date
So: Why did they need that option?
One was raped and did not want to bear the child of a rapist.
The other had a fetus with thanatophoric dysplasia that would die within minutes of being born. And it was one of two twins; a selective reduction (i.e. removal of the nonviable fetus) would improve the odds of the other fetus.
I will add a third friend who ended up not getting an abortion. Their fetus had SMA type 2 and would not survive more than a few months. They decided to have the baby, who lived almost a year. I am glad that the decision to have him was theirs and not the government's.
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cluelusshusbund:
Any one-size-fits-all "cut-off" date is inevitably going to be arbitrary and not appropriate in all circumstances. Therefore, I would prefer not to see such things legislated. I have already said that I believe that the relevant health professionals who are dealing with this sort of thing on the ground, day to day, are in the best positions to help make the best decisions in the all the circumstances. I don't think a musty statute buried in volume 320 of a set of statutes stored in a vault somewhere is likely to be up to the job.
Do you want literal abortion on demand at any stage of the pregnancy, even in cases where it would be possibly to safely delivery a perfectly healthy child?
I would say that such decisions should be made by the woman, in consultation with the health professionals who are aware of all the circumstances in her particular case.
Any one-size-fits-all "cut-off" date is inevitably going to be arbitrary and not appropriate in all circumstances. Therefore, I would prefer not to see such things legislated. I have already said that I believe that the relevant health professionals who are dealing with this sort of thing on the ground, day to day, are in the best positions to help make the best decisions in the all the circumstances. I don't think a musty statute buried in volume 320 of a set of statutes stored in a vault somewhere is likely to be up to the job.
I would like to see far fewer restrictions on abortions in the United States, compared to what is currently in place. Currently, a number of states have effectively banned access to abortion in all circumstances. You're aware of that, right?
What about my question about parents killing their 10 year old? Are you going to answer that, or are you going to slink away?
sculptor
Valued Senior Member
Why a parent would kill his or her child bewilders me----so, I just chalk it up to mental illness.
3 examples(from the news) One woman killed her children because her boyfriend didn't want children.
One Woman drove her car into a river to kill her children(I do not know why).
One man got caught embezzling and was facing prosecution so, he killed his children "because he did not want them to grow up poor".
All of the above speak to me of mental illness.
Were they in the right in doing the deed?
I do not know.
Personally, I would not go there---
That being "said" there are many things that I hear about or read about that I would never do.
Am I any more in the right for my abstinence than those who take action?
I was once banned from a blog for posting that "suicide has been said to be the ultimate act of a man of action".
I just assumed that the blogger did not know what the word "ultimate" meant-----
Language is a fluid thing, often misused, and also, quite often the misused word takes on a new meaning derived from the misuse.
DaveC426913
Valued Senior Member
I've had debates that did not have that same ridiculous fantasy come up. So your claim is not true.
You're bringing old debates you've had elsewhere, here. We can't speak to those.
No, it's just that you've made very it clear there will be no civil, constructive debate here with you, particularly since you're leading off with baggage you've brought to the table from unproductive discussions elsewhere.
Which is fine. It's just the same ol' angry Bells to me. Not my cuppa.
Carry on.
What i want is the right for women to make autonomous decisions about ther own body and reproductive functions.!!!
We agree that the decisions should be made by the woman... an i also thank it shoud be in consultation wit health professionals she may choose to discuss it wit.!!!
So after a woman in her 8th mounth an wit a healthy fetus discusses her issues wit health professionals an then desides to have an abortion... you woud be oK wit her decision.???
Yes… its a mess… often tryin to make it so difficult for a woman to get an abortion she just gives up.!!!
An you woud like to see “fewer” restrictions on abortions… but what about the rest… what are some of the other restrictions that you woud like to stay in place.???
Is this going to be one of those things where you have no idea what is going on?
Because there is nothing civil or constructive about your regressive pretenses.
If you find yourself on the side that always needs to forestall the fundamental question, you're probably on the wrong side.
Bells
Staff member
The poll question does not imply any such thing.
Yet this keeps coming up. Why?
I read the poll question and did not come to that conclusion, nor was it something that even entered my train of thought. Why did it for you and others?
Oh, that wasn't a rant. That was just frustration at this coming up time and again.
Why did you think this was an option or something that should be mentioned?
Define "reasonable situation".
Why do you think your "reasonable situation" should have bearing over what a woman determines over her own body and in consultation with her doctor?
At the end of the day, abortion should be a right and a choice and the only people concerned with that choice woman and her doctor who can advise her on the best course of action and refer her if required. No one else. It is essential healthcare.
Then you haven't really been paying attention.
No, you're just preventing me from using the door I wish to use to leave and making me go somewhere I don't particularly wish to go to.
Which again, is impeding my access through the building in the path I choose and feel safe using and possibly putting me in danger.
Bells
Staff member
Okay.
But have you considered that perhaps that should not be your decision at all? It is not a decision you will ever have to face. Do you think it is acceptable to impose your wariness on the body and rights of a woman?
Perhaps you should ask yourself why you are wary about the word "all". For example, we know women won't be aborting a day before birth or even in the weeks before she is due, because that is not a safe option and is not offered anywhere. So what makes you uncomfortable about the word "all" in the poll? What makes you so wary about it that you feel that perhaps, women should have limited rights over their own bodies? When answering that question to yourself, keep in mind that those limitations will only ever apply to women.
I'll put it this way. I am personally pro-life. What I mean by that is I never saw a circumstance where I would abort my child and I think the only reason I would have felt I had to, was if my life was at risk and there was no chance unless I aborted, but even then, I'd be weighing the options for how long I could continue and still deliver. But that is my personal belief that applies only to myself. I would never ever impose that on another woman. That was the choice I made for myself and my body, as is my right. No one else should have the right to dictate what I do with my body while I am still alive. No one else should have the right to impose their beliefs on another person's body.
Abortion is exceptionally personal and should remain that way. Another person's wariness, beliefs, etc, should have no bearing on what a woman elects to do.
The whole 'day before natural birth' is a fantasy. It doesn't happen.
My angst about this debate is because it always keeps reverting to weird fantasies that do not exist in reality.
So the whole "should", would only apply to reality and not delve into ridiculous fantasies. When we consider "all circumstances", that is asking where it is medically possible for the woman to abort. It isn't asking about a woman waiting for 40 weeks and then going 'nup'.
Can you cite one instance where a woman complained she wasn't able to access an abortion at 38 - 40 weeks?
Just one will do.
Because believe me, women have been complaining about abortion access for a hell of a long time now. At no time, in the decades of reviewing the literature about abortion and abortion access, have I ever seen one single instance of a woman complaining that she was denied an abortion at 38+ weeks.
Consent should still be sought.
I was bleeding out and they still got my consent, even as I was going into shock.
I mean, this is obvious, yes?
If a woman cannot deliver naturally, then the other option is a c-section. Usually women will elect someone to make that choice for her if she is incapacitated. But that is something any woman expecting to give birth, will be discussing with her doctor, midwife, doula, partner/spouse, family, etc.
When it comes to how the baby comes out of the woman's body, there's basically 2 ways. Through the vagina or surgically. Ironically, the same goes with abortion!
People have nephrectomy all the time, even with a healthy kidney, and it's often donated. Your example is not so much less charged as it is non-applicable.
Kidneys are essential to your survival, without it, you'd be on dialysis or would require a kidney transplant. A pregnancy is not essential to the woman's survival.
Then you have not been paying attention either. That fantasy was brought up in this very debate and responses to the poll were based on that.
So what's your aim here?
I'm sorry, did I interfere with the 'bro' discussion on rights you all feel should apply to women's bodies?
Ah yes, the angry black woman meme...
Excuse me while my eyeballs roll back into my head.
It's interesting to note that you are spending more time complaining about the sole woman participating in this discussion about women's human rights than you are actually answering the question I, as the sole woman participating, asked you.
Here's a refresher and my questions about your "more than one person's rights here": https://www.sciforums.com/threads/most-americans-say-abortion-should-be-legal.166284/#post-3724880
Seattle
Valued Senior Member
Because your conclusions don't represent the conclusions of everyone else. They are your own.
By that standard, I have to be right because they were my conclusions. I could ask, why wasn't it also your conclusion?
"All" does generally imply "everything".
Because women, being part of the human race, aren't all reasonable all the time therefore "all" can be ambiguous.
Why is it necessary, in your opinion, to define "reasonable situation" but not "all circumstances"? Your logic here isn't consistent.
It doesn't matter if it's not likely to abort a baby one day before natural birth. That's an extreme example. Extreme examples are often used to illustrate a point. Come up with any example of where a woman (half the human race) might not make a good decision. Has a woman never made a poor decision in the history of mankind?
This seems like an odd battle for you to want to take on given that everyone here agrees with you (except for the wording).
Before the latest Supreme Court reversal of Roe v Wade my position was always that there wasn't much of an issue (politically) on the subject of abortion because one was available most everywhere. When people wanted to make it a political issue, they always talked about "late term abortions" of which there were few and which usually involved the mother's life.
Therefore, it wasn't really much of an issue. People just tried using it for political and religious reasons.
In the poll, you argue that choice one and choice two are the same. OK, they could well be if you define the terms (which is all that anyone was asking). So why are you upset with everyone in the forum when they all voted for the same thing (as defined by you)?
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Seattle
Valued Senior Member
Ah yes, the white male bro meme...
It's an odd response to bring up race, gender and anger as a meme when you injected the black part, you are female and you said that you were frustrated. It's not a meme when it is self-described is it? A meme would be a characterization of everyone and you aren't everyone.
Isn't that really the issue here, you are the only woman here at the moment and you want to "womansplain" to us?
This reminds me of a trip I took to Honduras and the plane was delayed once we were on the mainland but our destination was an island. Two ladies went to complain to the ticket agent about how this wouldn't have happened in Chicago, it's not fair, etc. They just wanted to complain and be rude to someone that had nothing to do with the problem and who was trying to make it better.
The agent gave free hotel tickets for that night to everyone and arranged a bus to take everyone to the airport in the morning. Finally someone from the passenger group in the lobby had to go up to the ladies and politely point out that we had just been given free rooms and transportation and that maybe they should now quite complaining before the agent changed their mind.
The agent was being nice because we were on a domestic flight and free overnight rooms weren't required. They just did it to be nice but the ladies just had to keep complaining. Today they would be called "Karens" I guess.
We all agree, let's move on.
Pinball1970
Valued Senior Member
That's a terrible situation.
I don't think anyone has challenged women's rights to bodily autonomy on the thread. Just my MHO.
If the argument is "All" versus "Mostly," then we are into medical decisions and the like which is above our pay grades.
I only have one objection to the debate, not here, elsewhere regarding abortion and that is the opinion of men, is it valid? Should we have an opinion at all?
The communities I associate with that are not science specifically (atheist/American) have come out with a mantra. Men do not and cannot have children therefore are not entitled to an opinion.
Not necessarily the legal position (similar to here, should be legal) just taking part.
One host of a show said these words, "if you don't have a uterus then you can STFU."
So eliminating all trans women from the discussion too.
Idiotic statement. My gf was pregnant with my child and I was very unsure about it all being unexpected and thought about options.
She rang and said, "please don't ask me to get rid of this baby."
I lied to her and said the thought had not crossed my mind.
It was a discussion between me and her. That one statement removed any idea of even raising it.
We were not special, couples get in that position all the time, in love, in a relationship, living together ,married, just met?
It's two way, man and woman. This is an aspect of the debate that is not usually talked about.
Anyway, this is not quite on the specific topic so I will leave it here.
Shoud anybodys opinion overrule the pregnant womans decision about abortion.???
foghorn
Valued Senior Member
If no one’s opinion matters besides the woman’s, then why have any period at all, after which abortion is illegal?
I agree.!!!
Seattle
Valued Senior Member
Has it ever been conclusively shown that you are a human being? Why are you afraid to answer that? Are you, in fact. an alien?
sculptor:
Please try to focus on what I asked you.
You wrote: "all parents have or should have the right to kill their own children"
I asked: "For any reason, whatsoever? You would support the right of any parent to kill, say, their 10 year old daughter?"
Let me ask you again: do you support the right of any parent to kill his or her 10 year old daughter, for any reason whatsoever (or for no reason at all)?
That's a yes or no question. Please answer it.
Please try to focus on what I asked you.
You wrote: "all parents have or should have the right to kill their own children"
I asked: "For any reason, whatsoever? You would support the right of any parent to kill, say, their 10 year old daughter?"
Let me ask you again: do you support the right of any parent to kill his or her 10 year old daughter, for any reason whatsoever (or for no reason at all)?
That's a yes or no question. Please answer it.
cluelusshusband:
The question of whether I would be okay with it is also separate to the question of whether I think it should be illegal, as I said before.
Me too.
Good.
Probably not. But this is what I asked you. Would you be okay with it?
The question of whether I would be okay with it is also separate to the question of whether I think it should be illegal, as I said before.
Give me an example or two of the kinds of restrictions you have in mind and I'll tell you what I think.
Pinball1970
Valued Senior Member
Do you mean am I allowed an opinion? Regarding my pregnant girlfriend and our baby? Yes.
I could have said I want you to keep the baby or the opposite.
That is what normal people do. Have a discussion.