Most Americans say abortion should be legal

In your opinion, should abortion be legal?

  • Yes. Legal in all circumstances.

    Votes: 5 31.3%
  • Yes. Legal in most circumstances.

    Votes: 9 56.3%
  • Yes. Legal in only a few circumstances.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • No.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Unsure / no opinion.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I do not want to participate in this poll. Just show me the results.

    Votes: 2 12.5%

  • Total voters
    16
  • Poll closed .
Bells:
But have you considered that perhaps that should not be your decision at all? It is not a decision you will ever have to face. Do you think it is acceptable to impose your wariness on the body and rights of a woman?
Well, I wrote this, back in post #50, above:
I would say that such decisions should be made by the woman, in consultation with the health professionals who are aware of all the circumstances in her particular case.

Any one-size-fits-all "cut-off" date is inevitably going to be arbitrary and not appropriate in all circumstances. Therefore, I would prefer not to see such things legislated. I have already said that I believe that the relevant health professionals who are dealing with this sort of thing on the ground, day to day, are in the best positions to help make the best decisions in the all the circumstances. I don't think a musty statute buried in volume 320 of a set of statutes stored in a vault somewhere is likely to be up to the job.
Where does the part about imposing my wariness on the body and rights of a woman appear in that?
Perhaps you should ask yourself why you are wary about the word "all".
I believe I explained that in posts #30 and #31. I wrote quite a long explanation, addressed to you, as it happens.
For example, we know women won't be aborting a day before birth or even in the weeks before she is due, because that is not a safe option and is not offered anywhere. So what makes you uncomfortable about the word "all" in the poll? What makes you so wary about it that you feel that perhaps, women should have limited rights over their own bodies? When answering that question to yourself, keep in mind that those limitations will only ever apply to women.
In post 30, I wrote, after a long explanation of what makes me uncomfortable about the word "all" in the poll:

To be clear, then: in practice, it might very well make no difference whether a statute grants a general right to abortion in all circumstances or whether it grants such a right in all but a small selection of very specific circumstances, because how the law is applied in practice might well be the same, either way. But the poll question need not be interpreted in the context of how the current practice of providing for abortion is actually done. The question asks about "should" and "all". That means it is asking a moral question about an unspecified set of all possible circumstances.​
I'll put it this way. I am personally pro-life. What I mean by that is I never saw a circumstance where I would abort my child and I think the only reason I would have felt I had to, was if my life was at risk and there was no chance unless I aborted, but even then, I'd be weighing the options for how long I could continue and still deliver. But that is my personal belief that applies only to myself. I would never ever impose that on another woman.
Nor am I imposing my beliefs on any woman.
That was the choice I made for myself and my body, as is my right. No one else should have the right to dictate what I do with my body while I am still alive. No one else should have the right to impose their beliefs on another person's body.
As a matter of fact, in some medical situations choice can be taken away from a person about his or her own body. That typically only happens in life or death situations, but it does happen.

I have not suggested that anything should be enshrined in statute or other law giving somebody a general right - or an absolute right - to impose their beliefs on another person's body.
Abortion is exceptionally personal and should remain that way. Another person's wariness, beliefs, etc, should have no bearing on what a woman elects to do.
It depends what they are wary about. For instance, what if the woman is mentally ill and unable to make a rational decision?
The whole 'day before natural birth' is a fantasy. It doesn't happen.
Then that particular hypothetical implied by the particular phrasing of the poll question won't be a practical question. It will, however, remain a hypothetical problem with the proposition being put to people in the poll.
So the whole "should", would only apply to reality and not delve into ridiculous fantasies. When we consider "all circumstances", that is asking where it is medically possible for the woman to abort.
Fine, but the poll question doesn't specify what is meant by "all circumstances". That leaves it up to the individual who is responding to interpret. I interpreted it my way; you interpreted it your way. Neither of us is demonstrably wrong. We are expressing our personal opinions in light of how we each understand the question.
Can you cite one instance where a woman complained she wasn't able to access an abortion at 38 - 40 weeks?

Just one will do.
Let's assume there no such instance to be found. That doesn't affect anything about interpreting the poll question. I am still free to interpret "all circumstances" to mean, literally, all circumstances - including circumstances that haven't yet been observed in practice. The poll question doesn't constrain me to interpreting it the way you interpret it (or vice versa, of course).
Consent should still be sought.

I was bleeding out and they still got my consent, even as I was going into shock.

I mean, this is obvious, yes?
Yes. I agree that where informed consent can be obtained, it should always be sought. Where it can't, we often have things like powers of attorney etc.

In some cases, the actual choice for the woman will be to abort the baby or to die with the baby unaborted. I totally support the right of the woman to die in those circumstances, if that's what she chooses - even if she would be saved by the abortion.
If a woman cannot deliver naturally, then the other option is a c-section. Usually women will elect someone to make that choice for her if she is incapacitated. But that is something any woman expecting to give birth, will be discussing with her doctor, midwife, doula, partner/spouse, family, etc.
Exactly.
When it comes to how the baby comes out of the woman's body, there's basically 2 ways. Through the vagina or surgically. Ironically, the same goes with abortion!
Yes, and if it doesn't come out at all, she dies.
People have nephrectomy all the time, even with a healthy kidney, and it's often donated. Your example is not so much less charged as it is non-applicable.
I wasn't thinking of a donation situation. In that kind of cases, clearly it is likely that doctors will think it is rational choice for somebody to make. I was thinking more of somebody who is not in his right mind, demanding to have a kidney cut out.
Kidneys are essential to your survival, without it, you'd be on dialysis or would require a kidney transplant.
One kidney is essential. But we have two. Two's usually better than one, but we can get by with one.
A pregnancy is not essential to the woman's survival.
I don't understand the relevance of that. People can consent to not being medically treated, even for life-threatening conditions, though - interestingly - perhaps not in all circumstances.
 
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Shoud anybodys opinion overrule the pregnant womans decision about abortion.???
That is a different question to the thread but I realise I entered a different angle.

Legality. No one on here thinks abortion should be illegal.

"When" is a medical discussion.

Moral? Is it moral or not? That's a different discussion.

Opinion? We can absolutely have an opinion. We can have an opinion on anything and not being directly involved in the process should not preclude anyone from having an opinion. That opinion could be uniformed, angry crap (I have engaged with Creationists on Evolution) they are still entitled to it and to have it critiqued.
 
Shoud anybodys opinion overrule the pregnant womans decision about abortion.???
Specifically, should my opinion over rule a pregnant woman's decision to have an abortion? Depends how good my arguments are.
I might convince them one way or the other?

If they did not know me from Adam then they could always say, "mind your own god damn business."
If it is a woman I am in a relationship with, she would not say that. If that is something she would say, then that is a person I would not be in a relationship with.
 
Specifically, should my opinion over rule a pregnant woman's decision to have an abortion? Depends how good my arguments are.

Regardless of how good you thank you'r arguments may be... do you agree that the final decision is up to her.???

If they did not know me from Adam then they could always say, "mind your own god damn business."
If it is a woman I am in a relationship with, she would not say that. If that is something she would say, then that is a person I would not be in a relationship with.

Do you mean am I allowed an opinion? Regarding my pregnant girlfriend and our baby? Yes.
I could have said I want you to keep the baby or the opposite.
That is what normal people do. Have a discussion.

If she chooses to have a discussion wit you an at some pont says... "mind your own god damn business" ... woud you accept that you'r opinion mattered little... that the final decision about abortion is up to her.???
 
cluelusshusbund said: ↑
"What i want is the right for women to make autonomous decisions about ther own body and reproductive functions.!!!"

James R --- “Me too.”

@ James R “So after a woman in her 8th mounth an wit a healthy fetus discusses her issues wit health professionals an then desides to have an abortion... you woud be oK wit her decision.???”

“James R ::: Probably not.”

@ James R So you want the right for women to make autonomous decisions about ther own body and reproductive functions… but “Probably not” if she chooses to have an abortion in the 8th mounth.!!!

James R --- But this is what I asked you. Would you be okay with it?

Yes… im Ok wit what ever choice she makes concernin her abortion… which includes whenever she chooses to have it… no restrictions.!!!

@ James R How about you… woud you want any restrictions concernin how far along she is in her pregnancy when she chooses to have an abortion.???
 
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cluelusshusbund:

You seem to be retreading the same ground for a second time. I have already answered all your questions. Maybe try reading some of the replies I have posted to other people, too.
 
If she chooses to have a discussion wit you an at some pont says... "mind your own god damn business" ... woud you accept that you'r opinion mattered little... that the final decision about abortion is up to her.?
That should not happen and it did not happen. Of course my opinion mattered, I was and still am the father.
 
I agree.!!!
One day before the expected birth of a baby, its mother decides to abort the baby, and because it is her decision the termination is undertaken.
If the baby had been born naturally the next day, and the mother now decides to murder, there and then, the just born baby would you call the mother a murderer because the baby was born?
This is what you agree with?
 
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I have already answered all your questions. Maybe try reading some of the replies I have posted to other people, too.

No need... you’r “answer” is… an has been obvious from the get-go :)

That should not happen and it did not happen. Of course my opinion mattered, I was and still am the father.

The question i asked:::

"If she chooses to have a discussion wit you an at some pont says... "mind your own god damn business" ... woud you accept that you'r opinion mattered little... that the final decision about abortion is up to her.?"

Was based on the hypothetical you gave:::

Pinball1970 --- "If they did not know me from Adam then they could always say, "mind your own god damn business. If it is a woman I am in a relationship with, she would not say that. If that is something she would say, then that is a person I would not be in a relationship with."

So to answr the queston i asked... do you agree… or not… that the final decision about abortion shoud be up to the pregnant woman.???

One day before the expected birth of a baby, its mother decides to abort the baby, and because it is her decision the termination is undertaken.
If the baby had been born naturally the next day, and the mother now decides to murder, there and then, the just born baby would you call the mother a murderer because the baby was born?
This is what you agree with?

Abortin a Fetus woud not be murder... killin a baby woud be murder.!!!

James R wont give a strate answr… but how about you… what restriction woud you put in place as to how late a woman coud choose to abort a healthy fetus.???
 
a discussion wit you an at some pont says... "mind your own god damn business" ... woud you accept that you'r opinion mattered little... that the final decision about abortion is up to her.?"
I have answered that. My opinion DID matter that is the whole point. It mattered because we were in a relationship and I was the father.

It was not hypothetical it happened the way I said it.

She let me know and I went with it. My whole point was that there was a discussion. Be it short and we were not unusual.
 
Abortin a Fetus woud not be murder... killin a baby woud be murder.!!!
One day it’s a fetus, the very next day the fetus is born and becomes a baby and is killed by the mother there and then. One day it’s legal and the very next day, once born, it’s murder.
You are okay with that, because it was the mother’s decision to kill the fetus and not wait to kill the baby the next day.
James R wont give a strate answr… but how about you… what restriction woud you put in place as to how late a woman coud choose to abort a healthy fetus.???
Me... Assuming one day before expected birth date...
At such a late stage, full term all but one day, I think the mother should be given advice as to the future welfare of the 'fetus' if that fetus is appearing 100% healthy on instruments.
I’m only trying to make sense of your position, given that you don’t seem to want others advising the woman on what to do at such a late date.
PS. I sort of surprised at the votes staying the same for so long... I'm really suspecting socks would be called into 'action' here.
 
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One day it’s a fetus, the very next day the fetus is born and becomes a baby and is killed by the mother there and then. One day it’s legal and the very next day, once born, it’s murder.
You are okay with that, because it was the mother’s decision to kill the fetus and not wait to kill the baby the next day.

Me... Assuming one day before expected birth date...
At such a late stage, full term all but one day, I think the mother should be given advice as to the future welfare of the 'fetus' if that fetus is appearing 100% healthy on instruments.
I’m only trying to make sense of your position, given that you don’t seem to want others advising the woman on what to do at such a late date.
PS. I sort of surprised at the votes staying the same for so long... I'm really suspecting socks would be called into 'action' here.

The extreme position i took is to help draw out what restrictions on abortion others thank shoud be in place.!!!

Personaly… i druther ther be no restrictions… other than what the pregnant woman may choose for herself… ie… none of my bidness.!!!

As far as given advice… i thank the woman should have the right to listen to opinions of others… or not.!!!

I thank the poll vote is now 8 to 3… an i coudnt care less if any of the 8 are socks or not… meh :smile:
 
Specifically, should my opinion over rule a pregnant woman's decision to have an abortion? Depends how good my arguments are.
I might convince them one way or the other?

If they did not know me from Adam then they could always say, "mind your own god damn business."
If it is a woman I am in a relationship with, she would not say that. If that is something she would say, then that is a person I would not be in a relationship with.


I have answered that. My opinion DID matter that is the whole point. It mattered because we were in a relationship and I was the father.

It was not hypothetical it happened the way I said it.

She let me know and I went with it. My whole point was that there was a discussion. Be it short and we were not unusual.

Ok... so the part of you'r post that i "bolded" is not hypothetical.!!!

Wow... you must have been devastated when you'r wife told you to "mind your own god damn business." :tongue:

Anyhow... i dont care how long you'r conversation wit you'r wife was... how unusual it may or may not have been an i dont care what decision the 2 of you came up wit... but when all is said an done... i thank the final decision shoud always be up to the woman... do you.???
 
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