Most Americans say abortion should be legal

[James R]

Bye, Felicia

Oh, interesting that you want to bug out at the point in the conversation where you have to commit to a silly position on the matter you raised, or else admit that it was a silly point you were making in the first place.

It says something about you when you won't be honest, you know. In this case, it suggests that you weren't posting in good faith.

Is called me "Felicia" supposed to be an insult or something? Don't you think it's a bit childish to run away while calling names, because you don't want to answer a question?

 

[Pinball1970]

My queston still stands... do you agree wit me that the final decision shoud always be up to the woman.?

I answered that too.

 

[Pinball1970]

Yeah i know... a miscommunication... no explanations needed
My queston still stands... do you agree wit me that the final decision shoud always be up to the woman.???

Yes, again post 65 where I mention bodily autonomy, that explains it.

I hope I also explained my objection to the part of the whole debate that crops up a lot.

 

[cluelusshusbund]

I answered that too.

Yes, again post 65 where I mention bodily autonomy, that explains it.

I hope I also explained my objection to the part of the whole debate that crops up a lot.

So far what i got is:::

The farthers opinion is very important... but the woman shoud have the final say whether to abort or not.!!!
Let me know if any of that is wrong.!!!

 

[Pinball1970]

So far what i got is:::

The farthers opinion is very important... but the woman shoud have the final say whether to abort or not.!!!
Let me know if any of that is wrong.!!!

Correct. Hopefully you caught the other aspects of my arguments.

 

[cluelusshusbund]

I bet i got it.!!!

Pinball1970 --- (From a diferent forum... stuff others said) "Men do not and cannot have children therefore are not entitled to an opinion."

Of course thats ridiculous.!!!

Send some of those goobers over here an i will set 'em strate

 

[C C]

I bet i got it.!!!

Pinball1970 --- (From a diferent forum... stuff others said) "Men do not and cannot have children therefore are not entitled to an opinion."

Of course thats ridiculous.!!!

Send some of those goobers over here an i will set 'em strate

Can men get pregnant?
https://www.healthline.com/health/transg...t-pregnant

Yes, it’s possible for men to become pregnant and give birth to children of their own. In fact, it’s probably a lot more common than you might think...
- - - - - - - - - - -

New study finds roughly 1 in 10 pregnant "people" will develop long COVID
https://www.eurekalert.org/news-releases/1033445
- - - - - - - - - - - -​

IOW, such might be construed as one hand of social justice being incrementally undermined by the other.
_

 

[cluelusshusbund]

Can men get preganant?
https://www.healthline.com/health/transg...t-pregnant

Yes, it’s possible for men to become pregnant and give birth to children of their own. In fact, it’s probably a lot more common than you might think...
- - - - - - - - - - -

New study finds roughly 1 in 10 pregnant "people" will develop long COVID
https://www.eurekalert.org/news-releases/1033445
- - - - - - - - - - - -​

IOW, such might be construed as one hand of social justice being incrementally undermined by the other.
_

Life just gets more an more complicated... but maybe AI will figer it all out

 

[Sarkus]

Well, the Alabama Supreme Court has just recently ruled that an IVF clinic where a person accidentally dropped some frozen embryos, thereby rendering them unusable, can be prosecuted for wrongful death. It's based on their interpretation of the Wrongful Death of a Minor Act, which they argue is unqualified with regard applying to children, born and unborn. The case in question was originally dismissed on the basis that the embryos were not in a biological uterus, but the Alabama Supreme Court has overturned this, saying that it doesn't matter.
This will have far reaching consequences for those seeking IVF in Alabama and any other state that follows this precedent, as clinics generally create more embryos than are implanted. It seems that in Alabama these can no longer be destroyed. Intentional destruction would seem to fall in the realm of murder - i.e. the intentional death of a minor - given this recent ruling. So IVF clinics will now surely have to adapt their practices in Alabama, only creating one embryo at a time, or be closed down. This will further reduce the options available in Alabama of those struggling to conceive naturally.
Ultimately I fear that states themselves are becoming polarised, with the more liberal-minded being driven out, thus allowing those states to become even more right-wing than they already are. At some point they will be so far away from what the rest of the US stand for that things may get even more out of hand.

Anyhoo - yes, I know this isn't strictly about abortion, but it's a strongly related matter.

 

[billvon]

Well, the Alabama Supreme Court has just recently ruled that an IVF clinic where a person accidentally dropped some frozen embryos, thereby rendering them unusable, can be prosecuted for wrongful death.

Fun fact -

In Texas, a prison guard who was seven months pregnant was not allowed to leave when she started feeling pain. By the time they let her leave and she got to the hospital, the fetus was dead. She sued the state of Texas for wrongful death.

Now, keep in mind that in Texas, abortion is illegal, and doctors who perform abortions can be charged with murder.

But when the Texas courts heard about the prison guard case, their determination was that, since the baby was a fetus, it had no Constitutional rights, and so they couldn't be held responsible for anything.

 

[Seattle]

Well, the Alabama Supreme Court has just recently ruled that an IVF clinic where a person accidentally dropped some frozen embryos, thereby rendering them unusable, can be prosecuted for wrongful death. It's based on their interpretation of the Wrongful Death of a Minor Act, which they argue is unqualified with regard applying to children, born and unborn. The case in question was originally dismissed on the basis that the embryos were not in a biological uterus, but the Alabama Supreme Court has overturned this, saying that it doesn't matter.
This will have far reaching consequences for those seeking IVF in Alabama and any other state that follows this precedent, as clinics generally create more embryos than are implanted. It seems that in Alabama these can no longer be destroyed. Intentional destruction would seem to fall in the realm of murder - i.e. the intentional death of a minor - given this recent ruling. So IVF clinics will now surely have to adapt their practices in Alabama, only creating one embryo at a time, or be closed down. This will further reduce the options available in Alabama of those struggling to conceive naturally.
Ultimately I fear that states themselves are becoming polarised, with the more liberal-minded being driven out, thus allowing those states to become even more right-wing than they already are. At some point they will be so far away from what the rest of the US stand for that things may get even more out of hand.

Anyhoo - yes, I know this isn't strictly about abortion, but it's a strongly related matter.

This whole thing is so "silly" (not your comments). The ruling is ridiculous. I have a friend who went though the whole IVF process (and now has a healthy 8 year old boy).

Most embryos don't survive. She had to go 3 times before any of them survived past one week.

Yes, the states are very different but even within the conservative states there are still large minories of liberal voters. So the same people that live in Seattle could live in larger cities in Alabama and fit right in depending on the neighborhoods. There are just more areas where people don't feel this way.

The US is an interesting place if you look at a map. You could really redraw the lines to end up with about 6 new "states" rather than the existing 50. In my opinion the only ones worth living in would be the Pacific coast and Mountain states but there would also be the South, NE, Texas area and the Midwest.

 

[Tiassa]

Dystopia Double-Check

We're all aware, right, that "pro-life" conservatives don't know what they're talking about?

Seriously.

The Biden campaign↱, for instance, notes the following:

Reporter: Do you have a reaction to the Alabama Supreme Court ruling?

GOP Sen. Tuberville: I was all for it... We need to have more kids

Reporter: But IVF is used to have more children and IVF services are paused at some clinics​

Or, as journalist John Harwood↱ observes, "Tuberville quite obviously doesn't even know what IVF is".

Here's the transcript from forty-nine seconds of MSNBC:

Reporter: Do you have a reaction to the Alabama Supreme Court ruling on the fact that embryos are children?

Sen. Tuberville (R-AL): Yeah, I was all for it. [… (cut) …] We need to have more kids. We need to have a opportunity to do that, and this, I thought this was the right thing to do, but―

Reporter: But IVF is used to have more children, and right now IVF services are paused at some of the clinics in Alabama. Aren't you concerned this could impact people who are trying to have kids?

Sen. Tuberville: Well, that's for another conversation. [… (cut) …] People who need to have that, we need more kids. We need the people to have the opportunity to have kids.

Reporter #2: Senator, what do you say to the women right now in Alabama who no longer have access to IVF and will not as a result of this ruling? What do you say to them?

Sen. Tuberville: Well, that's a hard one, it really is. Really hard. Uh, 'cause, again, you want people to have that opportunity, and that's what I was telling her, we need more kids.​

 

[Seattle]

Dystopia Double-Check

We're all aware, right, that "pro-life" conservatives don't know what they're talking about?

Seriously.

The Biden campaign↱, for instance, notes the following:

Reporter: Do you have a reaction to the Alabama Supreme Court ruling?

GOP Sen. Tuberville: I was all for it... We need to have more kids

Reporter: But IVF is used to have more children and IVF services are paused at some clinics​

Or, as journalist John Harwood↱ observes, "Tuberville quite obviously doesn't even know what IVF is".

Here's the transcript from forty-nine seconds of MSNBC:

Reporter: Do you have a reaction to the Alabama Supreme Court ruling on the fact that embryos are children?

Sen. Tuberville (R-AL): Yeah, I was all for it. [… (cut) …] We need to have more kids. We need to have a opportunity to do that, and this, I thought this was the right thing to do, but―

Reporter: But IVF is used to have more children, and right now IVF services are paused at some of the clinics in Alabama. Aren't you concerned this could impact people who are trying to have kids?

Sen. Tuberville: Well, that's for another conversation. [… (cut) …] People who need to have that, we need more kids. We need the people to have the opportunity to have kids.

Reporter #2: Senator, what do you say to the women right now in Alabama who no longer have access to IVF and will not as a result of this ruling? What do you say to them?

Sen. Tuberville: Well, that's a hard one, it really is. Really hard. Uh, 'cause, again, you want people to have that opportunity, and that's what I was telling her, we need more kids.​

Are "we" now in favorite of blanket labeling of people. Anyone who is conservative and is pro-life, doesn't know what they are talking about?

It's easy to put that label on Tuberville. Why not just leave it there? Is it fair to say that all anti-capitalist progressives don't know what they are talking about, even though it may apply to you?

That's hardly fair, is it?

 

[Tiassa]

It's easy to put that label on Tuberville. Why not just leave it there? Is it fair to say that all anti-capitalist progressives don't know what they are talking about, even though it may apply to you?

That's hardly fair, is it?

Were Tuberville an historical aberration, you would have a point.

 

[Tiassa]

The Palmetto Turn

Sen. Tim Scott (R-SC), at least, was forthright:

Reporter: The Alabama Supreme Court rules that embryos are children. Is that a stance you agree with?

Scott: I haven’t studied the issue

(@Acyn↱)​

The fifteen-second clip of FOX News:

Reporter: The Alabama Supreme Court ruled that embryos are children. That's raised questions over whether in vitro fertilization can, y'know, move forward. Is that a stance that you agree with?

Sen. Scott (R-SC): Well, I haven't studied the issue, so I'm going to let Nikki Haley continue to go back and forth on that issue by herself.​

 

[billvon]

Are "we" now in favorite of blanket labeling of people. Anyone who is conservative and is pro-life, doesn't know what they are talking about?

Well, clearly Tuberville doesn't know what he's talking about. But in his case I think it's pure ignorance and is not related to any of his beliefs. From his responses it's clear he's not talking about abortion, IVF or women's rights - he simply has no idea what he's talking about, and is just quickly searching through his list of talking points and spouting the one that seems closest to the question.

He impresses me more as the conservative who - of COURSE! - would help a good friend to get an abortion because she decided that's what was best for her. When he gets back to his office, he looks at that list of talking points again and gives a presser on how fetuses have rights. Because that's his job.

 

[Seattle]

Were Tuberville an historical aberration, you would have a point.

I have a point in any case.

 

[Tiassa]

Back and Forth with Herself

Even acknowledging that The New Republic is, as such, oppositional, its attempt to capture Nikki Haley's response to the Alabama IVF ruling is painful:

Former South Carolina Governor Nikki Haley is frantically trying to quell the controversy over comments she made about IVF after an Alabama court's recent ruling that frozen embryos are children.

"We don't want fertility treatment to shut down, we don't want them to stop doing IVF treatment, we don't want them to stop doing artificial insemination," Haley said on CNN on Thursday. "But I think this needs to be decided by the people in every state. Don't take away the rights of these physicians and these parents to have these conversations."​

It was, as Ellie Quinlan Houghtaling↱ explained, Haley's second go after making a mess the first time around.

"Well first off all, this is, again, I didn't say that I agreed with the Alabama ruling. The question that I was asked is 'do I believe an embryo is a baby?'" Haley said on CNN Wednesday evening. "I do think that if you look in the definition, an embryo is considered an unborn baby. And so yes, I believe, from my stance, that that is."

But calling an embryo—the stage before the microscopic cellular mass is labeled a fetus—an unborn baby is not exactly correct.

In Handmaid's Tale-esque fashion, Haley has tried to toe the line on the issue of third party fertility in a futile effort to keep voters from turning away from her floundering campaign, even though she conceived her son via artificial insemination.

Last week, the Alabama Supreme Court decided that embryos created through in-vitro fertilization would be protected under the Wrongful Death of a Minor Act, effectively classifying single-celled, fertilized eggs as children. The decision has spelt certain doom for IVF clinics across the state, three of which have already announced that they will no longer be offering the procedure for fear of being hit with wrongful death suits.

So, when Haley initially claimed that embryos "are babies" and that she could see where the court was "coming from" on the issue, people were stunned.​

Even her second attempt sought to balance the irreconcilable, arguing, "this needs to be decided by the people in every state".

There are two parts, here. Haley should, at least, have an idea what she's talking about, instead chooses specialized, deviant, alternative definitions. "If you look in the definition", she said, but did not say which. However, we do know she has stated, "Embryos, to me, are babies", so maybe that's what she means.

This isn't new↗.

The second part is her inability to definitively stand up for IVF; the former governor of South Carolina pays tribute to state's rights. She won't agree with the Alabama ruling, but reserves her definitions to support it. She doesn't want IVF to stop, but won't protect it. That is, she hopes it won't stop, but thinks it should be left to the states to stop it.

She should know better about the medicine of IVF, having conceived a child thereby, but apparently doesn't.
____________________

Notes:

Quinlan Houghtaling, Ellie. "Nikki Haley Desperately Tries to Walk Back Comment on Alabama Embryo Ruling". The New Republic. 22 February 2024. NewRepublic.com. 22 February 2024. https://bit.ly/3SJGng2

 

[James R]

Moderator note: I have split Tiassa's trolling posts to a separate thread, here:

Tiassa trolls a thread about abortion

It is disappointing, but certainly not surprising, that Tiassa was more interested in trying to troll me than in discussing the thread topic here.

 

[James R]

...you asserted a position in one at odds with an affirmative answer to the other.

I did not.