Modern Christianity, the bible and God's laws

[davewhite04]

davewhite04:

It's not the end of the story, though. Many of your fellow Christians are intent on getting their interpretations of biblical morality enacted into enforceable laws of the land, for example. In some cases, they have succeeded, to the general detriment of human wellbeing.

Example?

Atheism does not come with any morality attached. Atheism is only about not being convinced that any God exists; that's all.

Exactly.

My personal morality is most closely aligned with secular humanist values which are demonstrably more moral than most of biblical morality, in that they value human wellbeing above devotion to an arbitrary set of supposed commands from an invisible man in the sky.

So you trust strangers opinions. How can you say "more moral", what yardstick do you use?

Let's assume that your God is real. Your argument is that God's morality is good because God can do whatever the hell he wants? Might makes right? That's a lousy basis for morality, if you ask me.

If the Jewish/Christian God exists then He created morality. Can you prove He doesn't exist?

Isn't it you who is arguing for the applicability of the 2000 year old book, not me?

No it is you. Listing a bunch of ancient practices being applicable today, I just had to inform you it is ancient history but you don't accept that, you want to question an all powerful God, using your tiny illogical brain.

Sure, you think you can pick and choose the parts you like from that book, but you still want to claim moral authority based on what the book says. You just want to ignore all the bad bits.

So you decide what bad is based on your secular morality, your human morality. You are not God James, neither is science,

I appreciate that there is a huge variety of different Christians. Christians differ wildly in their morality, across different denominations and across individual members of those denominations.

So what?

I can tell you for sure that there are large groups of Christians whose behaviour is not okay by me, davewhite. If you read the news, you'll see a lot of appalling behaviour from self-proclaimed Christians and the organisations they run. Of course, there are also examples of praiseworthy moral behaviour on the part of many Christians.

Who do you think you are? You are a guideless product of evolution remember.

Am I okay with child abuse in the Catholic Church - carried out exclusively by self-declared Christians? No, I'm not okay with that. How about you, davewhite? Am I okay with Christian sects that oppress and control their members in harmful ways? No, I'm not okay with that. How about you, davewhite? Am I okay with Christians making laws to ban access to abortion, even in cases of rape or incest? No, I'm not okay with that. How about you, davewhite?

Jesus already stated what would happen to paedophiles Matthew 18:5-7, I agree with Jesus since He is God(perfect morality).

You don't know me very well, do you?

I know you are intelligent but lack religious understanding. You also like to take something simple and make it complex... the opposite of genius.

That would require a very lengthy explanation, because as far as I can tell you haven't really given much consideration to the question of where people, in general, get their morals from. It seems like you believe - wrongly - that you get yours from a book.

I'll give you a very brief overview of where my morals come from. I value human wellbeing and human flourishing - not exclusively, mind you. Because I value those things, I feel like I have a duty, first and foremost, not to impede or hinder or harm human wellbeing or flourishing through my own actions. I agree with the maxim "Do not do unto others what you would not have them do unto you."

"i feel a sense of duty..." purely subjective and maybe made with good conscience, but subjective meaningless.

I also recognise that I live in an interconnected society that I share with 8 billion other human beings. In a general sense, I support the idea of the "greatest good for the greatest number", but the moral calculus that I apply in practice is not just a matter of counting heads.

Considering your tone of ridiculing someone who disagrees with you says a lot about you... you're lost and a hypocrite.

I am partial to certain ideas about virtues and living a good life. Those incorporate a lot of ideas about how one should act with respect to other people, as well. One should be honest. One should not set out to gain personally from another's misery. One should lend a hand to others who are in need. And so on.

What is good? I find you have a lack of respect. You are actually making up your own valueless morals...

My morals do not come out of a fear that I will be punished if I'm not a good boy. I don't have the threat of a Hell hanging over my head.

Who mentioned hell? You know nothing about me.

I hope that helps you to some extent to begin to understand.

It was a longwinded response mainly trying to deal with morality, and you got nowhere.

 

[James R]

davewhite04:

Example?

Laws banning access to abortion, even in the case of rape or incest, are a good recent example.

Exactly.

So I won't hear you talking about "atheist morality" again?

So you trust strangers opinions.

Did I write anything that says I trust strangers' opinions? I don't think I did.

But, now that you mention it, I do trust strangers (people who I don't know personally) quite often, regarding many things. I'm sure you do too.

When it comes to morality, if you're taking your morality by cherry-picking the bible, tell me how you're not trusting the opinions of strangers - the ones who wrote the bible.

Aren't you equally at fault (if this is a fault)?

How can you say "more moral", what yardstick do you use?

Human wellbeing. Like I said. If Action A tends to promote human wellbeing and Action B tends to harm it, then Action A is more moral than Action B.

What yardstick do you use?

If the Jewish/Christian God exists then He created morality.

Why didn't you answer the questions I asked you, regarding whether your morality is based on "might makes right"? Why did you try to deflect?

Will you answer my questions?

Then we can talk about your distraction. If the Christian God exists, how do you know he created morality?

Can you prove He doesn't exist?

If God is your basis for morality, it's vitally important that you can prove that he does exist, isn't it? Otherwise, you risk basing your entire morality on a fantasy or a lie.

On the other hand, if your God isn't real, then my morality isn't affected one jot, because it doesn't rest on any presumed authority from an assumed god.

So, can you prove that your God is real?

No it is you. Listing a bunch of ancient practices being applicable today, I just had to inform you it is ancient history but you don't accept that...

I accept that you think you can pick and choose from your Holy Book, keeping God's commandments when you approve of them and ignoring the ones that you don't approve of.

That's a correct description of your position, is it not?

..., you want to question an all powerful God, using your tiny illogical brain.

I don't believe in your all-powerful God.

However, you do. And yet, you think it's fine to ignore His commandments if you don't think they're good, or if you think they are "ancient history". How do you justify selectively ignoring your God's Holy Word?

By the way, trying to insult me doesn't help your case. You should stop that.

So you decide what bad is based on your secular morality, your human morality.

Exactly!

You are not God James, neither is science,

I do not claim to be God. Nor do I claim that science is God.

How do you decide what is bad, davewhite? Please tell me.

So what?

So Christians can't be bundled up into a single basket and assumed to all have identical views.

The same goes for atheists, by the way. There's a point worth taking away with you.

Who do you think you are? You are a guideless product of evolution remember.

So are you, remember. Or do you, perhaps, think you're a special creation of an Almighty God, whose existence you can't even be sure of?

Anyway, how is any of that relevant to morality? Explain the link for me.

Jesus already stated what would happen to paedophiles Matthew 18:5-7, I agree with Jesus since He is God(perfect morality).

So, not all behaviours by self-declared Christians are okay by you, either. I'm glad to hear it.

I know you are intelligent but lack religious understanding.

What are you talking about? What religious understanding do I lack? What do you understand that I do not?

"i feel a sense of duty..." purely subjective and maybe made with good conscience, but subjective meaningless.

I suppose you believe that an objective morality exists and that it comes from God. Is that right?

Here's a question for you: does God say things are good because God knows they are good, or are things good only because God says they are good? (And consider the same question for evil/bad.)

Considering your tone of ridiculing someone who disagrees with you says a lot about you...

Example?

What is good?

That which promotes human wellbeing.

What do you think good is? Whatever God says it is?

I find you have a lack of respect.

For what, exactly?

Tell me what I lack respect for, and tell me why I ought to respect it.

You are actually making up your own valueless morals...

Not just trusting strangers, then?

What do you mean by "valueless morals"? Isn't that an oxymoron?

Who mentioned hell? You know nothing about me.

I didn't mention you. I told you I don't believe in Hell. Does that upset you?

Do you believe in Hell? Do you fear God's punishment? Is that why you try to act morally?

It was a longwinded response mainly trying to deal with morality, and you got nowhere.

Did you learn something new?

 

[davewhite04]

Laws banning access to abortion, even in the case of rape or incest, are a good recent example.

How is that biblical?

So I won't hear you talking about "atheist morality" again?

Eh?

Did I write anything that says I trust strangers' opinions? I don't think I did.

But, now that you mention it, I do trust strangers (people who I don't know personally) quite often, regarding many things. I'm sure you do too.

When it comes to morality, if you're taking your morality by cherry-picking the bible, tell me how you're not trusting the opinions of strangers - the ones who wrote the bible.

Aren't you equally at fault (if this is a fault)?

Who do you think invented secular humanism?

What makes you think that secular humanism morality is better then the biblical form? What makes that decision? How do you know it is better?

Human wellbeing. Like I said. If Action A tends to promote human wellbeing and Action B tends to harm it, then Action A is more moral than Action B.

What is human well being? Alleviating pain? Giving money to a homeless person? Morality isn't black and white, and you can't trust yourself.

What yardstick do you use?

My conscience, which you don't believe in.

Why didn't you answer the questions I asked you, regarding whether your morality is based on "might makes right"? Why did you try to deflect?

This doesn't make sense. Care to elaborate?

Will you answer my questions?

Yes.

Then we can talk about your distraction. If the Christian God exists, how do you know he created morality?

Because He created everything.

If God is your basis for morality, it's vitally important that you can prove that he does exist, isn't it? Otherwise, you risk basing your entire morality on a fantasy or a lie.

On the other hand, if your God isn't real, then my morality isn't affected one jot, because it doesn't rest on any presumed authority from an assumed god.

So, can you prove that your God is real?

No. But you can't prove that secular humanism is true either. Thing is is that I admit it.

I accept that you think you can pick and choose from your Holy Book, keeping God's commandments when you approve of them and ignoring the ones that you don't approve of.

That's a correct description of your position, is it not?

No.

I don't believe in your all-powerful God.

I know.

However, you do. And yet, you think it's fine to ignore His commandments if you don't think they're good, or if you think they are "ancient history". How do you justify selectively ignoring your God's Holy Word?

By the way, trying to insult me doesn't help your case. You should stop that.

Do you not understand that the Old Testament laws no longer apply? You are not listening to a word I say. It is just like throwing pearls of wisdom to swine. Jesus was right.

That works both ways.

Exactly!

So you're led by your none existent conscious.

I do not claim to be God. Nor do I claim that science is God.

Who are you then? Just this guy? I think you're doing yourself a disservice.

How do you decide what is bad, davewhite? Please tell me.

One of my senses or my conscience(both can be wrong, we all make mistakes). Same as you... unless you read books to decide what right and wrong is...

So Christians can't be bundled up into a single basket and assumed to all have identical views.

No. There are all types of Christians based on the character of the individual. Some Christians pray/fast all day, give to charity a portion of their income weekly/monthly whatever, read the bible everyday etc. some simply call themselves Christian because they believe that Jesus is God.

The same goes for atheists, by the way. There's a point worth taking away with you.

Definitely, everyone is different. Most atheists and Christians wouldn't think twice about discussing their opinions, that's why it's rare that our type of conversation is rare indeed.

So are you, remember. Or do you, perhaps, think you're a special creation of an Almighty God, whose existence you can't even be sure of?

I am sure of His existence.

Anyway, how is any of that relevant to morality? Explain the link for me.

Because if you believe you are a product of a guideless system called evolution, why have morality? It serves to preserve the population?

What do you believe James R?

So, not all behaviours by self-declared Christians are okay by you, either. I'm glad to hear it.

What are you talking about? What religious understanding do I lack? What do you understand that I do not?

I understand why biblical law does not apply now, you seem to have difficulty grasping that.

I suppose you believe that an objective morality exists and that it comes from God. Is that right?

No.

Here's a question for you: does God say things are good because God knows they are good, or are things good only because God says they are good? (And consider the same question for evil/bad.)

God knows good and evil, He knows everything.

Example?

Ridiculing the concept of the God we're discussing, childish but sums up your view of theists and God, you're a scoffer James.

That which promotes human wellbeing.

What do you think good is? Whatever God says it is?

Does this apply to all human beings?

Only God is good.
[/quote]

For what, exactly?

Tell me what I lack respect for, and tell me why I ought to respect it.

You lack respect for people, certain people, which completely goes against your morals.

Not just trusting strangers, then?

A bit of both.

What do you mean by "valueless morals"? Isn't that an oxymoron?

Your morals are from a book, a book written to suit your own worldview... you don't trust your conscience it seems.

I didn't mention you. I told you I don't believe in Hell. Does that upset you?

Of course.

Do you believe in Hell? Do you fear God's punishment? Is that why you try to act morally?

I lost my faith years ago, first in myself, then God or vice verse, not sure. I'm starting to regain it. I fear living more than death.

Did you learn something new?

Of course.

 

[gmilam]

How is that biblical?

Ask the evangelicals who are passing these laws. They are the ones claiming divine guidance.

 

[davewhite04]

Ask the evangelicals who are passing these laws. They are the ones claiming divine guidance.

They claim "divine guidance"?

 

[James R]

davewhite04:

How is that biblical?

I don't know, but don't you think it's at least interesting that the strongest anti-abortion advocates in the United States also happen to be people who tie their anti-abortion opinions to their Christian religious beliefs?

Eh?

You and I agree that atheism doesn't come with a specific morality. Right? So the term "atheist morality" is not a useful descriptor.

Who do you think invented secular humanism?

It's a very long tradition that can be traced back at least as far as the ancient Greek philosophers. Its modern values were set out more clearly in the Enlightenment of the 18th century. In more recent times, there have been several Humanist Manifestos published by various organisations, which attempt to codify the core tenets.

What makes you think that secular humanism morality is better then the biblical form? What makes that decision? How do you know it is better?

I compare outcomes of applying the principles, in both cases, judged against the aim of promoting human wellbeing and flourishing.

For instance, the bible advocates killing homosexual people (more specifically, people who perform "homosexual acts", whatever they are). On the other hand, secular humanism says that sexual acts involving consenting adults are generally unproblematic.

Persecuting homesexuals for being who they are is demonstably detrimental to human wellbeing - especially the wellbeing of any people who are killed. Therefore, I judge that the humanist position on homosexuality is morally superior to the biblical one.

Do you think that biblical morality is superior to the morality of secular humanism? If so, what makes you think that? How do you know it is better?

What is human well being? Alleviating pain? Giving money to a homeless person?

It certainly involves the minimisation of unnecessary pain and suffering. It's also about being free to make choices about your own life, provided that your choices don't harm other people.

Morality isn't black and white, and you can't trust yourself.

You say you rely on your own conscience to make moral decisions. How is that not trusting yourself? Do you believe that God is your conscience - that your conscience is something that comes from outside of yourself?

My conscience, which you don't believe in.

Don't put words in my mouth, please.

Describe your conscience for me. What is it? Where does it come from?

This doesn't make sense. Care to elaborate?

Sure.

You said that I shouldn't question God's morality, because God can do whatever he likes. That implies that we should do whatever God says, because if we don't God, being all powerful, might punish us for disobeying him.

But that's the morality of a tyrant: "Do what I say, or I'll hurt you!" It's a form of bullying. If we follow God's rules because we're scared of the consequences, then we're just acting because we're afraid of a bully and not because the rules themselves are morally defensible.

I think we all need to try to work out what's actually right or wrong, not just follow the dictates of a bully who might punish us if we disobey. Acting out of fear is not the same as making a free moral choice.

Because He created everything.

Then God created all the evil in the world, too.

Do you believe that God is good? What makes him good? And what makes his rules good?

No. But you can't prove that secular humanism is true either. Thing is is that I admit it.

We both admit that we can't prove that either of our moral systems is the "true" or correct one.

Therefore, it seems to me that we can only have a discussion to argue about what the more moral course of action ought to be, in one situation or another, and try to convince each other if we disagree.

Apparently you do not believe this, but many Christians believe that God is a source of objective morality. Those Christians believe that God's rules should not be questioned, because God is the ultimate Good, and he would not make rules that were morally faulty. On this basis, they often go on to argue that the bible is the word of god, and therefore all the 'laws' and commandments in the bible must be obeyed, because they are God's perfect laws for his creation.

No.

What did I get wrong?

Do you not understand that the Old Testament laws no longer apply? You are not listening to a word I say. It is just like throwing pearls of wisdom to swine.

Again, I don't see why you feel the need to throw insults around.

I understand that you think the Old Testament rules don't apply any more. You're hardly on your own on that. But it's the opposite of what Jesus is reported to have said on the matter, in the bible.

I'm glad you don't support the immorality of the Old Testament (assuming you do not). That only leaves any problems that might come from your blindly following problematic New Testament rules.

Jesus was right.

About what?

So you're led by your none existent conscious.

I have not claimed I have no conscience. The opposite, in fact. I don't believe my conscience comes from God, however.

My conscience is informed by my upbringing (which, if you're interested, was Christian) and by secular humanist values and other philosophy.

Who are you then? Just this guy? I think you're doing yourself a disservice.

I don't understand. What do you mean?

One of my senses or my conscience(both can be wrong, we all make mistakes). Same as you... unless you read books to decide what right and wrong is...

I'm confident that our respective senses of what is right and wrong are both informed by out upbringing and by what we've read or have been told by other people. We also inevitably take things away from our life experiences.

As it happens, I have read a lot of books on how do decide what is right and wrong. It's a long-term interest of mine. I'm interested in what other people have to say about what they think are the best ways. I'm interested in what you think. More importantly, I'm interested in why.

No. There are all types of Christians based on the character of the individual. Some Christians pray/fast all day, give to charity a portion of their income weekly/monthly whatever, read the bible everyday etc. some simply call themselves Christian because they believe that Jesus is God.

That's what I said in the first place, essentially. We're in agreement on this.

 

[James R]

(continued...)

I am sure of His existence.

Very interesting.

So, if I asked you to rate your own confidence level that God is real, on a scale from 0 to 100, you'd be at 100?

Why?

Because if you believe you are a product of a guideless system called evolution, why have morality?

Well, in terms of evolution, there are are good arguments for mutual altruism. Cooperating with others is often more conducive to maximising one's own chances of surviving and/or reproducing than being entirely selfish. So, there are some evolutionary defensible reasons for being moral.

Beyond that, we human beings live in complex, interdependent societies. Societies with regulated moral codes tend to thrive more than societies that are anarchistic or based on selfishness.

In terms of maximising human wellbeing and flourishing, it is important that there are social contracts that regulate the kinds of conduct that are acceptable (permissible) in society and those that are not. Without such contracts, "freeloaders" can play on the goodwill of others and create a lot of harm.

It serves to preserve the population?

Yes. It serves to preserve the population, among other things.

I understand why biblical law does not apply now, you seem to have difficulty grasping that.

Correct. I'm having trouble grasping that.

Why do you think biblical law does not apply any more? When did God cancel his biblical laws?

No.

That's an important and revealing answer. You do not believe in an objective, God-given morality?

Are you with me, then, saying that we can only rely on our own internal consciences and/or argue about the right course of action with other human beings? There is no ultimate authority to decide these things for us?

God knows good and evil, He knows everything.

So, things are intrinsically good or evil, and God simply knows which things are good and which things are evil?

If that's the case, then morality doesn't come from God.

Ridiculing the concept of the God we're discussing, childish but sums up your view of theists and God, you're a scoffer James.

Tell me why I should respect God and belief in God.

Also, look at things from my point of view. Is there not a plethora of religious people who are atheism scoffers? Why aren't you taking them to task for their hypocrisy? Is it just because they are on your side?

Does this apply to all human beings?

I don't understand what you're asking about.

Only God is good.

Is God good because God only does good things? Or is there some other reason?

The bible, for instance, records a lot of incidents in which God does bad/evil things.

Was the Old Testament god bad, but then He changed into the good New Testament god, maybe? Why the change?

You lack respect for people, certain people, which completely goes against your morals.

It does not go against my morals at all.

I believe that respect is something that must be earned, rather than something that is automatic. Respect is different from simply being polite or courteous to people. I can be polite and courteous to people who I do not respect because, apart from anything else, why would I want to sink to their level?

Your morals are from a book, a book written to suit your own worldview... you don't trust your conscience it seems.

My morals aren't from a book. They are certainly informed by some ideas that are in books.

I trust my conscience, but that doesn't mean I never second-guess myself. That's part of developing as a moral/virtuous person, trying to live one's best life.

Of course.

Why does it upset you that I don't believe in Hell?

I think Hell is a threat that is used to try to make people conform to rules that are not always justifiable or reasonable. I think that it's a kind of mental torture imposed on people who really believe in it. I think it's cruel to teach people that there is a Hell. Also, I think that any God who would create a Hell in which to torture souls forever is a horrible, evil, tyranical God who is not worthy of anybody's worship.

I lost my faith years ago, first in myself, then God or vice verse, not sure. I'm starting to regain it.

May I ask: what has God ever done for you? Did God do anything in your time of need?

 

[davewhite04]

James R:

I don't know, but don't you think it's at least interesting that the strongest anti-abortion advocates in the United States also happen to be people who tie their anti-abortion opinions to their Christian religious beliefs?

I think it has a lot to do with the leaders of evangelical movement. They claim it's murder, but so is a woman's menstrual period. It reminds me of the problem with illicit drugs, as because they're illegal people get them less safely in anyway, young women risk their health and even life going underground to get abortions. The pro life movement don't seem to wanna hear and understand this.

You and I agree that atheism doesn't come with a specific morality. Right? So the term "atheist morality" is not a useful descriptor.

I'm glad we agree.

It's a very long tradition that can be traced back at least as far as the ancient Greek philosophers. Its modern values were set out more clearly in the Enlightenment of the 18th century. In more recent times, there have been several Humanist Manifestos published by various organisations, which attempt to codify the core tenets.

I compare outcomes of applying the principles, in both cases, judged against the aim of promoting human wellbeing and flourishing.

For instance, the bible advocates killing homosexual people (more specifically, people who perform "homosexual acts", whatever they are). On the other hand, secular humanism says that sexual acts involving consenting adults are generally unproblematic.

Persecuting homosexuals for being who they are is demonstrably detrimental to human wellbeing - especially the wellbeing of any people who are killed. Therefore, I judge that the humanist position on homosexuality is morally superior to the biblical one.

Do you think that biblical morality is superior to the morality of secular humanism? If so, what makes you think that? How do you know it is better?

I think it is a fair moral code for an atheist/agnostic to follow. The old testament describes Gods opinion of man laying with man, it is Gods right not to accept it, but Christians(most) believe hate the sin but love the sinner. No killing involved now. I personally ascribe to the Christian philosophy, homosexuality hasn't brought any good into the world.

By biblical morality I simply try to follow Christ's greatest commandment, which I pointed out earlier(Mark 12:30-31). I don't think there is a greater or anything comparable to that moral code.

I think if more atheists followed secular humanism, the world would be a better place, however it would be far better if they followed Mark 12:30-31.

It certainly involves the minimisation of unnecessary pain and suffering. It's also about being free to make choices about your own life, provided that your choices don't harm other people.

But choices sometimes if not often do affect other people. Like the common adage "I don't care what other people think, do".

You say you rely on your own conscience to make moral decisions. How is that not trusting yourself? Do you believe that God is your conscience - that your conscience is something that comes from outside of yourself?

I've started trusting myself more, but it's folly to trust yourself 100%, especially if you've got bipolar. I don't think God is my conscience, but my spirit(which is a spark of God, so I guess you're right) is. Sometimes you don't listen to your spirit and go with a gut reaction, which most of the time doesn't end well. I believe in the supernatural James, I understand you don't so we'll leave it at that. I'm not here to convert you.

Describe your conscience for me. What is it? Where does it come from?

I described a bit of it above, but another point. I am pretty sure your conscience makes up your personality. It's the YOU that lasts forever. The Alpha and Omega, it's been around for all eternity, as it's part of God.

You said that I shouldn't question God's morality, because God can do whatever he likes. That implies that we should do whatever God says, because if we don't God, being all powerful, might punish us for disobeying him.

He can. His morality is perfect, even though He questions himself sometimes. His ways are above us so we, most of the time people, including the religious(especially Christians), disagree with Him.

God doesn't speak to people directly, He speaks to them through prophets, or did. I don't think Jesus speaks either, if He did He wouldn't punish us. In fact you've give me an idea for a thread, but the lack of Christians would make it pointless. About the fear of God, should we fear Jesus, what do you think?

But that's the morality of a tyrant: "Do what I say, or I'll hurt you!" It's a form of bullying. If we follow God's rules because we're scared of the consequences, then we're just acting because we're afraid of a bully and not because the rules themselves are morally defensible.

God the Father gets angry(so does Jesus for righteous reasons), He was pissed off with His people ignoring Him. That's why the poor prophets got so much stick.

I think we all need to try to work out what's actually right or wrong, not just follow the dictates of a bully who might punish us if we disobey. Acting out of fear is not the same as making a free moral choice.

God always wanted the best for His people, this right and wrong from a human point of view is all wishy washy, God knows the future and He knows where His peoples choices would take them. Look at what happened to the Jewish people when they disobeyed God, God didn't hand them over to the numerous tribes/civilisations that conquered them, like the Egyptians.

Then God created all the evil in the world, too.

Yes

Do you believe that God is good? What makes him good? And what makes his rules good?

God is both good and bad, just like us. So God is bad and you should fear him is a valid position. His rules ultimately led us to Jesus, which is undeniably good.

Therefore, it seems to me that we can only have a discussion to argue about what the more moral course of action ought to be, in one situation or another, and try to convince each other if we disagree.

Maybe we could, I think we would agree on many things.

Apparently you do not believe this, but many Christians believe that God is a source of objective morality. Those Christians believe that God's rules should not be questioned, because God is the ultimate Good, and he would not make rules that were morally faulty. On this basis, they often go on to argue that the bible is the word of god, and therefore all the 'laws' and commandments in the bible must be obeyed, because they are God's perfect laws for his creation.

Unfortunately many Christians, and none believers, live in the past.

Again, I don't see why you feel the need to throw insults around.

Must of been in a bad mood or tired, apologies.

I understand that you think the Old Testament rules don't apply any more. You're hardly on your own on that. But it's the opposite of what Jesus is reported to have said on the matter, in the bible.

Because at the time the rules had to be introduced for the good of His people. Jesus changed everything.

I'm glad you don't support the immorality of the Old Testament (assuming you do not). That only leaves any problems that might come from your blindly following problematic New Testament rules.

I don't follow anything blindly, and that was an insult by the way you framed it.

I have not claimed I have no conscience. The opposite, in fact. I don't believe my conscience comes from God, however.

How does science deal with consciousness?

My conscience is informed by my upbringing (which, if you're interested, was Christian) and by secular humanist values and other philosophy.

How do you know that?

I don't understand. What do you mean?

Because you're humble.

I'm confident that our respective senses of what is right and wrong are both informed by out upbringing and by what we've read or have been told by other people. We also inevitably take things away from our life experiences.

Mostly agree, I think however, that our spirit plays a significant role too.

I removed a couple of sentences of yours as I don't think they needed answering, but if you want some kind of answer please ask them again.

I'll get to the second part later.

I need to chill out on Witcher 3 on the PS5 with the updated graphics. If you like Skyrim you'll love this. I often(sad I know) wonder if you ever did get rid of your werewolf curse in Skyrim!

 

[LaurieAG]

One thing that surprises me today is how people seem to think that 'an eye for an eye' from Leviticus (24:19–21) and Exodus (21:24-27) is anything remotely like the morality of the christian “In everything, do to others what you would have them do to you...”, Matthew (7:12).

At least Exodus says something like "If a man hits his male or female slave in the eye and the eye is blinded, he must let the slave go free to compensate for the eye."

 

[Pinball1970]

EDIT: He also died for breaking the Mosaic Laws

The Romans would not have been bothered about that.

 

[ThazzarBaal]

What's that got to do with the price of cheese?

I dunno, do you think it might? Umm, it could be that cheese may be either more desirable or less. Umm, what do you think?

I sure know I like cheese. It's real good on mashed taters.

 

[davewhite04]

One thing that surprises me today is how people seem to think that 'an eye for an eye' from Leviticus (24:19–21) and Exodus (21:24-27) is anything remotely like the morality of the christian “In everything, do to others what you would have them do to you...”, Matthew (7:12).

At least Exodus says something like "If a man hits his male or female slave in the eye and the eye is blinded, he must let the slave go free to compensate for the eye."

If you live by the sword, you die by the sword.

 

[davewhite04]

The Romans would not have been bothered about that.

Probably not, unless they saw Jesus and his followers as a danger to the status quo of the Roman settlement.

The Jews did take offense and got the Romans to crucify him.

 

[davewhite04]

James R:

(continued...)

Very interesting.

So, if I asked you to rate your own confidence level that God is real, on a scale from 0 to 100, you'd be at 100?

Why?

Personal experience, reading the bible and my conscience.

Well, in terms of evolution, there are are good arguments for mutual altruism. Cooperating with others is often more conducive to maximising one's own chances of surviving and/or reproducing than being entirely selfish. So, there are some evolutionary defensible reasons for being moral.

Interesting... it's almost like evolution has a mind.

Beyond that, we human beings live in complex, interdependent societies. Societies with regulated moral codes tend to thrive more than societies that are anarchistic or based on selfishness.

I think people are born good and bad. Their upbringing can even this out but ultimately your conscience doesn't change.

In terms of maximising human wellbeing and flourishing, it is important that there are social contracts that regulate the kinds of conduct that are acceptable (permissible) in society and those that are not. Without such contracts, "freeloaders" can play on the goodwill of others and create a lot of harm.

Like I said, good guys bad guys, and then there's free loaders! Laws keep the bad guys in check somewhat. But it seems the good guys are the ones that suffer in this society.

Why do you think biblical law does not apply any more? When did God cancel his biblical laws?

Old testament laws aren't worth the paper they're written on now for the Jews for example, since the second temple got destroyed they've never had anywhere to sacrifice for forgiveness of sins. Jesus fullfilled the law of the old testament. With the shedding of his blood, you simply have to believe in him, and repent for forgiveness of any sin.

That's an important and revealing answer. You do not believe in an objective, God-given morality?

I try to keep the ten commandments, they tend to apply to my countries law in anyway, but Jesus' most important commandment I try(fail a lot) to keep... you know the one by now?

Are you with me, then, saying that we can only rely on our own internal consciences and/or argue about the right course of action with other human beings? There is no ultimate authority to decide these things for us?

We are probably very similar when it comes to morals, you seem like a good guy. Some instances I'll have a flashback to the old testament and think "shit, God doesn't approve of that, which will make me think and then I move on.

So, things are intrinsically good or evil, and God simply knows which things are good and which things are evil?

Yes. But our concept of good and evil may be different to His, as I mentioned, His ways are above us.

If that's the case, then morality doesn't come from God.

Not directly, it's all to do with your conscience. If you follow Jesus your conscience changes for the better of humanity. We could have paradise on earth.

Tell me why I should respect God and belief in God.

It's not about respect, it's about love. I know it sounds wishy washy but it is. Imprinting Jesus' greatest commandment in your conscience does make you a better person, but life can be harder because of the world we live in. The narrow gate(Matthew 7:13-14).

Also, look at things from my point of view. Is there not a plethora of religious people who are atheism scoffers? Why aren't you taking them to task for their hypocrisy? Is it just because they are on your side?

I'm guilty sometimes of scoffing atheists, simply because of their attitude towards God. It's like someone offending my girlfriend. The atheists I know IRL don't talk about God, and I wouldn't dare scoff them because of it, I see them as lost. I believe good people, atheist or not, who automatically follow what I have quoted from the bible, don't need to believe.

I don't understand what you're asking about.

God is perfect good, and perfect bad. No human alive can compete with Him.

Not sure if that answers your question?

Is God good because God only does good things? Or is there some other reason?

God is everything. He does good and bad.

The bible, for instance, records a lot of incidents in which God does bad/evil things.

Yep, in our eyes.

Was the Old Testament god bad, but then He changed into the good New Testament god, maybe? Why the change?

You're flirting with Gnosticism... I have entertained this but really Jesus was convinced his father was the old testament God, so I settled there. God seemingly give up talking to prophets a long time before Christ, I think He got fed up because the Jews just didn't listen.

It does not go against my morals at all.

Can you point out what you are replying to?

I believe that respect is something that must be earned, rather than something that is automatic. Respect is different from simply being polite or courteous to people. I can be polite and courteous to people who I do not respect because, apart from anything else, why would I want to sink to their level?

I don't respect anyone, I love people who deserve it, and sometimes don't deserve it.

My morals aren't from a book. They are certainly informed by some ideas that are in books.

Replace those books with the new testament and see where you end up, if you think you could stomach it.

I trust my conscience, but that doesn't mean I never second-guess myself. That's part of developing as a moral/virtuous person, trying to live one's best life.

I used to be the same, now I find myself second guessing sometimes. I've just recently got my faith back, but I have a long way to go to be confident enough to trust my conscience 100% again. You have a sound philosophy, and a good life it seems, maybe to scared to change it. Maybe you're just stuck in your ways, or too proud to believe in Jesus.

Why does it upset you that I don't believe in Hell?

Don't worry about it, I've seen and heard enough to know you're not hell bound.

I think Hell is a threat that is used to try to make people conform to rules that are not always justifiable or reasonable. I think that it's a kind of mental torture imposed on people who really believe in it. I think it's cruel to teach people that there is a Hell. Also, I think that any God who would create a Hell in which to torture souls forever is a horrible, evil, tyrannical God who is not worthy of anybody's worship.

God is Just, so there will be a judgement and there is a hell. I stopped believing in hell not that long ago, but since getting my faith back, everything is making sense again, I'm slowly coming back to life.

May I ask: what has God ever done for you? Did God do anything in your time of need?

Haha everything, I curse Him as often as I praise Him, it's like a love affair. He has done much more good for me than bad though. I believe He brought me back to life on more than one occasion.

The second near death experience I had, or out of body, when I got back in my body nothing functioned, no heart beat I could feel nothing. I shouted through my mind(I couldn't speak just see) "Jesus!", nothing happened, then I shouted "God!" and I slowly came back alive.

 

[davewhite04]

I dunno, do you think it might? Umm, it could be that cheese may be either more desirable or less. Umm, what do you think?

I sure know I like cheese. It's real good on mashed taters.

I love a good cheddar, like Davidstow from Cornwall. Parmesan for pasta dishes, even pizza. And since pizza is one of my favourite foods, I love mozzarella! Not a blue cheese fan.

 

[Pinball1970]

Probably not, unless they saw Jesus and his followers as a danger to the status quo of the Roman settlement.

The Jews did take offense and got the Romans to crucify him.

It's a possibility yes, however the Roman authorities were not interested in points of Mosaic law including blasphemy.
They had their own empire with its own hierarchy, government and gods.
A claim to be king they WOULD take issue with.
Also insurrection. Not blasphemy.

 

[gmilam]

They claim "divine guidance"?

You seem like an intelligent person. You must've noticed the ongoing "battles" against abortion/birth control and LGBTQ rights are all led by people claiming biblical authority for their views.

 

[davewhite04]

You seem like an intelligent person. You must've noticed the ongoing "battles" against abortion/birth control and LGBTQ rights are all led by people claiming biblical authority for their views.

I am aware that some Christians in the USA have got there back up about the subjects you mentioned.

I think they are misguided. There is one verse in the new testament that they should follow, it is: Matthew 7:1-5

Ultimately, Christians shouldn't judge or else they will be judged.

 

[LaurieAG]

If you live by the sword, you die by the sword.

You just proved my point, there is a difference.

 

[James R]

At least Exodus says something like "If a man hits his male or female slave in the eye and the eye is blinded, he must let the slave go free to compensate for the eye."

Leviticus 25:44-46 says:

"Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.

You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.

You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly."
​

The bible explicitly endorses slavery. Jesus said nothing to negate Leviticus.