Modern Christianity, the bible and God's laws

[davewhite04]

You just proved my point, there is a difference.

I don't understand your point?

 

[davewhite04]

Leviticus 25:44-46 says:

"Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.

You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.

You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly."
​

The bible explicitly endorses slavery. Jesus said nothing to negate Leviticus.

It was His followers who ended slavery in Britain and the colonies. They had to pay compensation in some cases.

Other words the fruits of Jesus' teachings are good. Islam for example still has slavery in Africa.

 

[James R]

davewhite04:

I intend to reply to what you have written. It's likely to be quite a long reply, since there are a lot of interesting things to unpack in what you wrote. Right now, I have some other things to do (including sleep!), but I haven't forgotten you.

 

[gmilam]

I am aware that some Christians in the USA have got there back up about the subjects you mentioned.

I think they are misguided. There is one verse in the new testament that they should follow, it is: Matthew 7:1-5

Ultimately, Christians shouldn't judge or else they will be judged.

I think they are misguided too, but I'm an atheist. What do I know?

On the other hand, that is the most vocal example of Christian thought we see in the US. I can only assume that the Christians who remain silent actually condone those opinions.

 

[ThazzarBaal]

I love a good cheddar, like Davidstow from Cornwall. Parmesan for pasta dishes, even pizza. And since pizza is one of my favourite foods, I love mozzarella! Not a blue cheese fan.

Romano is good with lasagna and it might be ok on garlic toast, but I've never tried it that way.

Yeah ... Anyway, what's this thread about again?

 

[LaurieAG]

I don't understand your point?

Read my previous post.

 

[davewhite04]

Romano is good with lasagna and it might be ok on garlic toast, but I've never tried it that way.

Yeah ... Anyway, what's this thread about again?

I've probably had Romano, but not intentionally, I've never bought it from the shop. I used to cook lasagne often, it's delicious, just used cheddar.

Cheese is so flexible.

The thread isn't about cheese, but if you want to create a cheese thread I'll contribute

 

[James R]

davewhite04:

I think [secular humanism] is a fair moral code for an atheist/agnostic to follow. The old testament describes Gods opinion of man laying with man, it is Gods right not to accept it, but Christians(most) believe hate the sin but love the sinner.

God created homosexuality, though, if he created everything. Why would he create something he cannot accept?

There's also the whole problem of how you know that what's in the bible is the word of God, rather than the opinions of some men who wrote some books.

Do you think that being homosexual is a sin? Bear in mind that being gay is not a choice; it's a part of natural human variation. People don't decide who they are sexually attracted to.

The bible - and, in fact, many homophobes - tend to focus on certain sexual acts as being the sin, rather than the sexual orientation itself. However, they ignore the fact that the same sexual acts are also engaged in by heterosexuals. Besides that, why does it matter what consenting adults do in the privacy of their bedrooms?

No killing involved now.

There are still hate crimes. Those haven't gone away.

I personally ascribe to the Christian philosophy, homosexuality hasn't brought any good into the world.

What harm has it brought into the world, in your opinion?

Do you think it is right to persecute people for posessing an unalterable personal characteristic that is entirely out of their control?

By biblical morality I simply try to follow Christ's greatest commandment, which I pointed out earlier(Mark 12:30-31). I don't think there is a greater or anything comparable to that moral code.

There are TWO commands there. The most important one, according to Mark, is to love God with all your might, because - you know - God is the single most important thing. The other one says love your neighbour as yourself, which is a worthy enough moral aspiration.

I think if more atheists followed secular humanism, the world would be a better place, however it would be far better if they followed Mark 12:30-31.

Why is it so important to love a God who you say is both good and evil?

I don't think God is my conscience, but my spirit(which is a spark of God, so I guess you're right) is. Sometimes you don't listen to your spirit and go with a gut reaction, which most of the time doesn't end well. I believe in the supernatural James, I understand you don't so we'll leave it at that. I'm not here to convert you.

What convinced you that spirits are real?

I described a bit of it above, but another point. I am pretty sure your conscience makes up your personality. It's the YOU that lasts forever. The Alpha and Omega, it's been around for all eternity, as it's part of God.

The bible says you only get one go at living. Then God judges you and you end up in heaven or in hell for the rest of eternity. It doesn't make much sense for God to place so much emphasis on mere blip in an eternal existence. What do you think? Why does God do it?

He can [do whatever he likes]. His morality is perfect, even though He questions himself sometimes.

The bible's accounts of God's morality certain paint God as morally questionable and fallible. I don't understand why you believe it is perfect. Also, didn't you say that all the evil in the world is ultimately due to God? Why would a morally perfect being create evil?

You say that God questions himself?

Lots of people claim that God is omniscience, omnipotent and omnibenevolent. Is the God you believe in any of those things?

If God is omniscience (knows everything), why would God ever question himself? He already knows the answers to all questions. It doesn't make sense.

More generally, if God is a perfect being, why would God create anything? A perfect being would already necessarily be complete and content in itself. Why would it need or want anything extra? A god that has needs or desires would be imperfect. A god that questions his own decisions would necessarily be imperfect.

His ways are above us so we, most of the time people, including the religious(especially Christians), disagree with Him.

Aren't you just making excuses for your God, so that you can overlook his errors and bad decisions, along with his inconsistencies and his intemperance? Why do you give your God a free pass?

God doesn't speak to people directly, He speaks to them through prophets, or did.

When and why did he stop that?

I don't think Jesus speaks either, if He did He wouldn't punish us.

You believe that Jesus punishes us? How? Why?

In fact you've give me an idea for a thread, but the lack of Christians would make it pointless. About the fear of God, should we fear Jesus, what do you think?

For me, obviously, fearing Jesus would be approximately equivalent to fearing Voldemort. Fictional characters (or dead people) don't hold much in the way of fear, for me.

Do you fear Jesus? Why?

God the Father gets angry(so does Jesus for righteous reasons), He was pissed off with His people ignoring Him. That's why the poor prophets got so much stick.

Is God all-knowing? If he is, then why would he get angry about anything? He knows everything that will ever happen. He must have know that his people would ignore him. He created them knowing that they would ignore him. Why does God blame his own creation for doing exactly what he knew it would do, all along?

Also, instead of getting angry, why doesn't God just stop or prevent the things that make him angry from occurring in the first place? Why not just make those things impossible, instead? Isn't God all-powerful?

God always wanted the best for His people, this right and wrong from a human point of view is all wishy washy, God knows the future and He knows where His peoples choices would take them.

Was it in God's power to give all of the best to his people? If we wanted the best, why didn't he act to make it happen? If he's all powerful, and wants the best, why does he allow evil to exist in the world? Why does he allow bad things to happen to good people?

You seem to be saying that there's a different moral standard that applies to God, compared to the one that God applies to humans. Why is that? Why is God inconsistent?

Then God created all the evil in the world, too.

Yes

Why? Does God enjoy the evil?

God is both good and bad, just like us. So God is bad and you should fear him is a valid position. His rules ultimately led us to Jesus, which is undeniably good.

So your God is not omnibenevolent. He is good some of the time and evil some of the time. Why do you worship him? Out of fear?

What's your position regarding how Jesus relates to God? You speak as if Jesus has different characteristics to God. But most Christian churches hold that Jesus is God incarnate. If that's true, how can Jesus be undeniably good while God is both good and bad? Aren't they one and the same being?

Maybe we could, I think we would agree on many things.

It would be either accidental - because your religious morality coincides in some instances with secular morality - or because your morality doesn't come (entirely) from your religion, in practice.

Unfortunately many Christians, and none believers, live in the past.

Do you believe that God is the source of an objective morality? Or does God simply know what is right and wrong, and chooses to do right some of the time and wrong at other times?

I asked you before, but your answer wasn't clear to me. Is God the reason that somethings are good while others are evil, or is God just a being who recognises what's good and evil? In the latter case, the question of what is good or evil obviously won't depend on God in any way; we'll need to appeal to something other than God to decide what is good or evil.

Because at the time the rules had to be introduced for the good of His people. Jesus changed everything.

My point was that Jesus did not want to change any Old Testament laws. He told people to keep those laws. Jesus never spoke out against slavery, for example.

How does science deal with consciousness?

Well, we know that consciousness is invariably associated with physical brains. So, at the simplest level, it seems reasonable to hypothesise that that consciousness is a product of the brain.

No consciousness has ever been observed to exist in the absence of a host brain.

(Did you mean 'conscience' there, or 'consciousness'? For now, I'm assuming the latter, because that's what you wrote.)

How do you know that?

How do I know that my moral sense is informed by my upbringing, along with stuff that I've read?

Well, I have memories of learning about what my parents consider to be good and bad behaviour, as a child, for starters. Since I now agree with a lot of what they taught, it makes sense to assume that I internalised some of those teachings.

As an adult, I'm also aware that some of my moral views changed as a result of reading about humanist values and various moral philosophies. That strongly suggests to me that my views were influenced by those things.

How do you know that your conscience is due to your eternal spirit self, which is somehow associated with God?

I need to chill out on Witcher 3 on the PS5 with the updated graphics. If you like Skyrim you'll love this. I often(sad I know) wonder if you ever did get rid of your werewolf curse in Skyrim!

The last time I played Skyrim was a long time ago. I should give it another go. I have a copy of the Witcher 3, though I haven't made a lot of progress through that game yet.

 

[James R]

(continued...)

Personal experience, reading the bible and my conscience.

Those things together make you 100% confident that God is real?

Of the three things, which contributes most to your confidence that God is real?

Interesting... it's almost like evolution has a mind.

It's a very common error to assume that if something looks designed, it must be designed. It's why a lot of people are Creationists who reject evolution.

Evolution has no end goals or aims. It requires no "mind" to drive the process. All that is needed is a source of random variation among individuals (and there are several of those), along with an environment in which certain individual traits are more beneficial to an organism's survival than others. The basic concepts are very simple.

I think people are born good and bad. Their upbringing can even this out but ultimately your conscience doesn't change.

I disagree. I don't believe in innate goodness or badness in people.

Old testament laws aren't worth the paper they're written on now for the Jews for example, since the second temple got destroyed they've never had anywhere to sacrifice for forgiveness of sins.

Practicing Jews obviously disagree with you.

Jesus fullfilled the law of the old testament. With the shedding of his blood, you simply have to believe in him, and repent for forgiveness of any sin.

I don't believe in him. What will happen to me?

I try to keep the ten commandments, they tend to apply to my countries law in anyway, but Jesus' most important commandment I try(fail a lot) to keep... you know the one by now?

You try to keep the 10 commandments?

What do you think about the fact that four out of the 10 commandments are concerned only with God and god's holy day?

Do you think that the remaining six commands are the most important ones that God had to deliver to Moses? Honour thy mother and father? Don't bear false witness? Don't covet your neighbour's ass? Don't commit adultery?

Do you think that God would have made a better list of His commandments? For instance, there's nothing in there that says "Don't treat other human beings as your property." There's not even one that says "Be kind to one another."

As commands from a morally perfect being, the 10 commandments seem to me to be a little lacking. Do you agree?

We are probably very similar when it comes to morals, you seem like a good guy.

We've already identified at least one point of difference. For some reason, you think homosexuality is a sin. (In point of fact, I don't think anything is a sin - an offence against God - but perhaps that's beside the point.)

Can you tell me what's morally wrong with homosexuality?

So, things are intrinsically good or evil, and God simply knows which things are good and which things are evil?

Yes. But our concept of good and evil may be different to His, as I mentioned, His ways are above us.

Why isn't it important to God that we understand what is good and evil in his eyes?

Does he not want us to behave as he would?

If that's the case, then morality doesn't come from God.

Not directly, it's all to do with your conscience.

Are you saying that morality comes from a spirit that is separate from God? What determines what is good and what is bad, ultimately? Is there something external to yourself, or is it just a matter of personal choice, as dictated by your spirit? Does that mean that there's no morality common to all human begins? What is good for one person can be evil for another, and there's no way to decide who is right or wrong?

If you follow Jesus your conscience changes for the better of humanity.

Now you seem to be saying that morality is what Jesus says it is.

It's not about respect, it's about love. I know it sounds wishy washy but it is. Imprinting Jesus' greatest commandment in your conscience does make you a better person, but life can be harder because of the world we live in. The narrow gate(Matthew 7:13-14).

It seems to me that, on average, Christians who say they follow Jesus do not demonstrably behave more morally than atheists, which tends to refute your claim that following Jesus makes a person better. We could also compare Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, Jews and followers of other religions. I think we'd find many examples, in all religions, of people who are considered to be good people and people who are considered to be bad people. Christianity doesn't seem to me to offer any special benefits.

I'm guilty sometimes of scoffing atheists, simply because of their attitude towards God. It's like someone offending my girlfriend. The atheists I know IRL don't talk about God, and I wouldn't dare scoff them because of it, I see them as lost.

Have you considered that maybe they see you as lost?

I believe good people, atheist or not, who automatically follow what I have quoted from the bible, don't need to believe.

The bible records some good moral advice, along with some bad moral advice. I'm obviously not convinced that the good advice (or the bad advice, for that matter) comes from God. But then, obviously, I'm not convinced that anything in the bible comes from God. But similar good moral advice can be found in the foundational texts of many different religious, as well as in non-religious texts.

I don't see a good justification of cherry picking the good bits out of the bible, while ignoring the bad bits. If you're going to do that to God's special book, why are you using that book at all? Why don't you just read up all the texts of various religions, along with some moral philosophy, and pick out the good bits from all of them? Why focus on just that one book, written by a God who you say is both good and evil?

God is perfect good, and perfect bad.

Logically, it's impossible to be both, simultaneously.

The bible, for instance, records a lot of incidents in which God does bad/evil things.

Yep, in our eyes.

Are you going to make the excuse that God's heinous evil acts can somehow be considered good, if only we consider that God works in mysterious ways?

Why are you giving God a free pass?

Why won't your God tell us his standards? Why is it one set of rules for him (or no rules) and another for us?

My morals aren't from a book. They are certainly informed by some ideas that are in books.

Replace those books with the new testament and see where you end up, if you think you could stomach it.

I've read the New Testament. And the Old. When I was a child, I was indoctrinated into a Christian church. I ended up an atheist.

Have you read the bible? Or even just the whole of the New Testament?

You have a sound philosophy, and a good life it seems, maybe to scared to change it. Maybe you're just stuck in your ways, or too proud to believe in Jesus.

It's not a matter of pride. It's a matter of what it is reasonable to believe, given the evidence, or lack thereof. I don't give religion a free pass.

Don't worry about it, I've seen and heard enough to know you're not hell bound.

But I'm an apostate from Christianity, am I not? How do you know what God will do with me?

God is Just, so there will be a judgement and there is a hell. I stopped believing in hell not that long ago, but since getting my faith back, everything is making sense again, I'm slowly coming back to life.

The God you worship condemns certain people to unending torture and pain in an eternal hell? A hell that he created for humans that he created, knowing he would be sending them to his hell.

Why do you worship him?

Haha everything, I curse Him as often as I praise Him, it's like a love affair. He has done much more good for me than bad though. I believe He brought me back to life on more than one occasion. The second near death experience I had, or out of body, when I got back in my body nothing functioned, no heart beat I could feel nothing. I shouted through my mind(I couldn't speak just see) "Jesus!", nothing happened, then I shouted "God!" and I slowly came back alive.

You say "near death experience", not "death experience". Were you actually dead, or not?

Were any doctors involved in bringing you back to life, or was it just God?

 

[davewhite04]

davewhite04:

God created homosexuality, though, if he created everything. Why would he create something he cannot accept?

It's part of God teaching what is right and wrong. He knows everything, He knows He has to say these things as it's part of the future. Does that make sense to you? I'll probably have to mention it again in this response.

There's also the whole problem of how you know that what's in the bible is the word of God, rather than the opinions of some men who wrote some books.

Have you read the bible James? To me it just reads like there is one author even though it was written by 40ish authors over about 1500 years, it is the most amazing book in history.

Do you think that being homosexual is a sin? Bear in mind that being gay is not a choice; it's a part of natural human variation. People don't decide who they are sexually attracted to.

No. You have to remember that that when it was written, being homosexual was pointless for the good of His people and goes against one of His commandments, "Go forth and be fruitful". I do believe a homosexual lifestyle is a choice, so is a heterosexual lifestyle or partnership.

The bible - and, in fact, many homophobes - tend to focus on certain sexual acts as being the sin, rather than the sexual orientation itself. However, they ignore the fact that the same sexual acts are also engaged in by heterosexuals. Besides that, why does it matter what consenting adults do in the privacy of their bedrooms?

I don't know what you mean. The view of God is man lie with man He doesn't like, it doesn't mean people have to be the same in this day and age. Jesus doesn't mention it, and He is the most modern aspect of God.

There are still hate crimes. Those haven't gone away.

Apologises, can't find what you are replying

What harm has it brought into the world, in your opinion?

None in this age.

Do you think it is right to persecute people for posessing an unalterable personal characteristic that is entirely out of their control?

I can't speak for ancient times, but do they get thrown in jail now?

Why is it so important to love a God who you say is both good and evil?

Because He created everything just for you.

What convinced you that spirits are real?

I've felt, seen and been a spirit.

The bible says you only get one go at living. Then God judges you and you end up in heaven or in hell for the rest of eternity. It doesn't make much sense for God to place so much emphasis on mere blip in an eternal existence. What do you think? Why does God do it?

I don't think you know what it's like to be truly evil James, hell is exactly the place where evil people thrive.

The bible's accounts of God's morality certain paint God as morally questionable and fallible. I don't understand why you believe it is perfect. Also, didn't you say that all the evil in the world is ultimately due to God? Why would a morally perfect being create evil?

Without evil there would be no good. God is Holy. This isn't a contradiction, it just means by His nature He is Holy. The closet example of this in a human would be the Saints.

You say that God questions himself?

Genesis 6:6-7

6 the Lord regretted making human beings on the earth, and his heart was grieved.

7 So the Lord said: I will wipe out from the earth the human beings I have created, and not only the human beings, but also the animals and the crawling things and the birds of the air, for I regret that I made them.

Lots of people claim that God is omniscience, omnipotent and omnibenevolent. Is the God you believe in any of those things?

He is all of those things.

If God is omniscience (knows everything), why would God ever question himself? He already knows the answers to all questions. It doesn't make sense.

Maybe God has a conscience.

More generally, if God is a perfect being, why would God create anything? A perfect being would already necessarily be complete and content in itself. Why would it need or want anything extra? A god that has needs or desires would be imperfect. A god that questions his own decisions would necessarily be imperfect.

My personal opinion is is that He wanted a relationship.

Aren't you just making excuses for your God, so that you can overlook his errors and bad decisions, along with his inconsistencies and his intemperance? Why do you give your God a free pass?

No. Because if it wasn't for Him I would never of existed.

When and why did he stop that?

There was no need after Jesus came on the scene.

You believe that Jesus punishes us?

No.

For me, obviously, fearing Jesus would be approximately equivalent to fearing Voldemort. Fictional characters (or dead people) don't hold much in the way of fear, for me.

To you James, to me Jesus is very much alive. So is Voldemort somewhere.

Do you fear Jesus? Why?

I don't.

Is God all-knowing? If he is, then why would he get angry about anything? He knows everything that will ever happen. He must have know that his people would ignore him. He created them knowing that they would ignore him. Why does God blame his own creation for doing exactly what he knew it would do, all along?

He knows He has to say or do these things as it's part of the future. People have to learn.

Also, instead of getting angry, why doesn't God just stop or prevent the things that make him angry from occurring in the first place? Why not just make those things impossible, instead? Isn't God all-powerful?

We wouldn't learn a thing, we'd just be robots.

Was it in God's power to give all of the best to his people? If we wanted the best, why didn't he act to make it happen? If he's all powerful, and wants the best, why does he allow evil to exist in the world? Why does he allow bad things to happen to good people?

Life is a lesson, a nursery lesson. Some have it harder than others, but it just means they can take it. How they are rewarded I don't know.

You seem to be saying that there's a different moral standard that applies to God, compared to the one that God applies to humans. Why is that? Why is God inconsistent?

He is the source of morals. What is good to you might not be good to Him.

Why? Does God enjoy the evil?

No. There's a whole study about this as there's numerous bible verses, one I've got which is a start is Psalm 5:3-5.

So your God is not omnibenevolent. He is good some of the time and evil some of the time. Why do you worship him? Out of fear?

You're putting words in my mouth. He is omnibenevolent. To you James yes. I don't worship Him, I have a relationship with Him. He just is part of my life again.

What's your position regarding how Jesus relates to God? You speak as if Jesus has different characteristics to God. But most Christian churches hold that Jesus is God incarnate. If that's true, how can Jesus be undeniably good while God is both good and bad? Aren't they one and the same being?

Jesus is God, both good and bad but Holy.

It would be either accidental - because your religious morality coincides in some instances with secular morality - or because your morality doesn't come (entirely) from your religion, in practice.

I don't believe in religion. Some religious concepts, like the trinity but I dislike religion on the whole. Cause friction, and just look at Israel(Not as bad as Russia and Ukraine like) and Palestine at the minute.

Do you believe that God is the source of an objective morality? Or does God simply know what is right and wrong, and chooses to do right some of the time and wrong at other times?

Of course. Do you believe in objective morality? James, you are trying to judge God, do you know how silly that is?

 

[davewhite04]

Continued...


I asked you before, but your answer wasn't clear to me. Is God the reason that somethings are good while others are evil, or is God just a being who recognises what's good and evil? In the latter case, the question of what is good or evil obviously won't depend on God in any way; we'll need to appeal to something other than God to decide what is good or evil.


God is the reason why somethings are good or evil.

My point was that Jesus did not want to change any Old Testament laws. He told people to keep those laws. Jesus never spoke out against slavery, for example.

Those laws were the old covenant, Jesus created a new covenant. See if this makes sense:

Luke 22:19-20

19 And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.”

20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you

Well, we know that consciousness is invariably associated with physical brains. So, at the simplest level, it seems reasonable to hypothesise that that consciousness is a product of the brain.

Associated, but that isn't the complete story. Your consciousness, personality in other words, is eternal.

No consciousness has ever been observed to exist in the absence of a host brain.

That makes sense, with an actual computer removed.

How do I know that my moral sense is informed by my upbringing, along with stuff that I've read?

It's not, but your conscience can take on board what you are taught or by what books you read. Morals are external indicators on how your behaviour is to be judged.

Well, I have memories of learning about what my parents consider to be good and bad behaviour, as a child, for starters. Since I now agree with a lot of what they taught, it makes sense to assume that I internalised some of those teachings.

Definitely. Your upbringing plays a massive part of what type of person you turn out to be. If you are evil, you need Jesus.

As an adult, I'm also aware that some of my moral views changed as a result of reading about humanist values and various moral philosophies. That strongly suggests to me that my views were influenced by those things.

Yes. My example of a book would be the bible. If I do something, or I'm about to do something my conscience checks with my memory of the bible(in context, not Levite laws) and I wonder if what I'm about to do is the right thing, like lying for instance.

How do you know that your conscience is due to your eternal spirit self, which is somehow associated with God?

Because when I left my body my spiritual body was still conscious.

The last time I played Skyrim was a long time ago. I should give it another go. I have a copy of the Witcher 3, though I haven't made a lot of progress through that game yet.

If you have a good PC, PS5 or Xbox Series X, I'd get the upgraded graphics pack for the Witcher 3, beautiful game. Skyrim is a classic, finished the story on PC when it first came out, recently did it again on the Switch but spent over 100 hours still 100s of hours worth of content. Talk about value for money!

Having my Sunday dinner, then a snooze, will reply to your next message later today.

 

[davewhite04]

James R:

It's adding "[/quote]" to the end of the message, hence the untidy look.

I'll try to rectify it.

EDIT: User error

 

[davewhite04]

(continued...)

Those things together make you 100% confident that God is real?

Of the three things, which contributes most to your confidence that God is real?

In the order. Personal experience, the bible and I believe the difference between good and evil are embedded on my conscience(How did they get there?).

Personal experience was the trigger to my belief in God. The bible described it, and my conscience quite clearly exists, why?

It's a very common error to assume that if something looks designed, it must be designed. It's why a lot of people are Creationists who reject evolution.

I'm of the opinion that God started life with a plan on how it would ultimately look like, using evolution.

Evolution has no end goals or aims. It requires no "mind" to drive the process. All that is needed is a source of random variation among individuals (and there are several of those), along with an environment in which certain individual traits are more beneficial to an organism's survival than others. The basic concepts are very simple.

Where did the source come from? Science hasn't got a clue as to how life started. One day it will I think, but all it will prove is that intelligence was behind it.

I disagree. I don't believe in innate goodness or badness in people.

How do you explain the difference between a saint and a serial killer?

Practicing Jews obviously disagree with you.

Really?

I don't believe in him. What will happen to me?

I don't know you irl, but based on how you have conducted yourself on sciforums for the past 15 years or so you seem like a good well adjustered human being, so this passage might be relevant for you.

Luke 5:32

32 I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”

You try to keep the 10 commandments?

If you keep Jesus' commandment you automatically keep the ten commandments.

What do you think about the fact that four out of the 10 commandments are concerned only with God and god's holy day?

I think it's fair for that day and age when there were gods that demanded human babies to be sacrificed to them for example.

Do you think that the remaining six commands are the most important ones that God had to deliver to Moses? Honour thy mother and father? Don't bear false witness? Don't covet your neighbour's ass? Don't commit adultery?

I think they're all as important as the rest. How about you?

Do you think that God would have made a better list of His commandments? For instance, there's nothing in there that says "Don't treat other human beings as your property." There's not even one that says "Be kind to one another."

You have to remember that these were giving to a people who lived in a 13th century BCE time. Do you understand? You seem to have a problem with this, use your head.

As commands from a morally perfect being, the 10 commandments seem to me to be a little lacking. Do you agree?

No I don't agree. They were revolutionary, look what the Jews have lived through because of them? They are still around today as strong as ever. Where are the ancient Egyptians and Babylonians?

We've already identified at least one point of difference. For some reason, you think homosexuality is a sin. (In point of fact, I don't think anything is a sin - an offence against God - but perhaps that's beside the point.)

Where did I say that? You're making shit up James and it's offensive. Bad form.

Why isn't it important to God that we understand what is good and evil in his eyes?

It is important. But you have to read the bible to find out. If you still don't get it, meditate and read it, if you still don't get it you're mentally backwards.

Does he not want us to behave as he would?

No. Do as I say not as I do.

Are you saying that morality comes from a spirit that is separate from God? What determines what is good and what is bad, ultimately? Is there something external to yourself, or is it just a matter of personal choice, as dictated by your spirit? Does that mean that there's no morality common to all human begins? What is good for one person can be evil for another, and there's no way to decide who is right or wrong?

Your being sly James, purposefully ignoring what I have said in the hopes of tripping me up, or maybe you don't read what I right and comprehend it. Your spirit is part of God, it is the eternal you. Conscience is where morality exists.

Now you seem to be saying that morality is what Jesus says it is.

You need to think again.

It seems to me that, on average, Christians who say they follow Jesus do not demonstrably behave more morally than atheists, which tends to refute your claim that following Jesus makes a person better. We could also compare Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, Jews and followers of other religions. I think we'd find many examples, in all religions, of people who are considered to be good people and people who are considered to be bad people. Christianity doesn't seem to me to offer any special benefits.

At least Christians admit they are sinners, and pray for help because of it.

Have you considered that maybe they see you as lost?

I don't to be honest.

The bible records some good moral advice, along with some bad moral advice. I'm obviously not convinced that the good advice (or the bad advice, for that matter) comes from God. But then, obviously, I'm not convinced that anything in the bible comes from God. But similar good moral advice can be found in the foundational texts of many different religious, as well as in non-religious texts.

What bad moral advice? It seems to me you unequivocally believe in good and evil? Why?

I don't see a good justification of cherry picking the good bits out of the bible, while ignoring the bad bits. If you're going to do that to God's special book, why are you using that book at all? Why don't you just read up all the texts of various religions, along with some moral philosophy, and pick out the good bits from all of them? Why focus on just that one book, written by a God who you say is both good and evil?

Where have I cherry picked? You misread me James... I treat the bible as history. The old testament as a story of the Jewish people's history. The New testament as history also. Both hold truths. You seem to have little respect for the book, maybe you have a grudge against a being(God) that you don't believe in?

Logically, it's impossible to be both, simultaneously.

I assume you mean good and evil? If so, I am both.

Are you going to make the excuse that God's heinous evil acts can somehow be considered good, if only we consider that God works in mysterious ways?

When God uses evil He uses it no excuse. Who do you think you are to question the creator of the universe? It's like Vegans... they think that cows would exist if we were all vegans. Do you?

Why are you giving God a free pass?

Because He knows what He's doing.

Why won't your God tell us his standards? Why is it one set of rules for him (or no rules) and another for us?

Because we are not God. The sooner you realise this the better, or your arrogance will get out of control.

I've read the New Testament. And the Old. When I was a child, I was indoctrinated into a Christian church. I ended up an atheist.

I read it once all the way through from beginning to end when I was 32. I recommend you do, maybe you'll appreciate it and realise it wasn't written by ignorant peasants, like you.

It's not a matter of pride. It's a matter of what it is reasonable to believe, given the evidence, or lack thereof. I don't give religion a free pass.

I think you understand very little about the Judeo/Christian faith. Read the bible before you debate and belittle Christians based on other peoples opinions. You're the one cherry picking.

But I'm an apostate from Christianity, am I not? How do you know what God will do with me?

Christianity isn't Islam.

The God you worship condemns certain people to unending torture and pain in an eternal hell? A hell that he created for humans that he created, knowing he would be sending them to his hell.

Yes. Just because God knows this, we don't.

Why do you worship him?

I don't really worship Him, I play music and think of Him, but when I get the chance to sing hymns in Church(like last October, a wedding) I put my full being into it and I feel great!

You say "near death experience", not "death experience". Were you actually dead, or not?

I believe I was dead yes.

Were any doctors involved in bringing you back to life, or was it just God?

No doctors, I couldn't talk/scream for help obviously. I think it was God.

I have been in other worlds, dark spiritual worlds, and the only one who was always with me was God, that's why He is and always will be my best friend.

 

[Pinball1970]

Not all Christians a made from the same cloth... most are sheep and take no notice of the bible, maybe read exerts now and then, but there are prayer warriors too

My experience also. With the exception of educated scholars like Peter Williams, Justin Bass, James White on social media in debates.

Thing is we do not come across those types of guys at school, in church, in the community or preaching from the pulpit. We encounter commited Christians who accept Jesus as lord and saviour. A completely different animal.

They will have mixed messages about the OT, give a different answer regarding what Jesus was, what the Messiah was.
Think all Christians just started with one hymn sheet right after Jesus died.
Believe Christians were immediately persecuted in their 1000s by the Romans, that the NT Testament was written by eyewitnesses who knew Jesus personally.
Think Matthew Mark and Luke wrote the synoptics, John wrote John, Paul wrote all his letters etc etc.
No contradictions in the OT or NT.

Not an exhaustive list.

 

[gmilam]

The old testament laws are ancient history.

That doesn't seem to stop the evangelical types from quoting them.

 

[Pinball1970]

That doesn't seem to stop the evangelical types from quoting them.

Circumcision.

 

[davewhite04]

My experience also. With the exception of educated scholars like Peter Williams, Justin Bass, James White on social media in debates.

Thing is we do not come across those types of guys at school, in church, in the community or preaching from the pulpit. We encounter commited Christians who accept Jesus as lord and saviour. A completely different animal.

They will have mixed messages about the OT, give a different answer regarding what Jesus was, what the Messiah was.
Think all Christians just started with one hymn sheet right after Jesus died.
Believe Christians were immediately persecuted in their 1000s by the Romans, that the NT Testament was written by eyewitnesses who knew Jesus personally.
Think Matthew Mark and Luke wrote the synoptics, John wrote John, Paul wrote all his letters etc etc.
No contradictions in the OT or NT.

Not an exhaustive list.

My mother is a perfect example of a typical Christian in our country.

I asked her where God is, she points to her heart and says "there in my heart." I agree. She hasn't read the bible, she just knows.

Matthew 18:2-4

 

[gmilam]

Sometimes, but evangelicals tend to stick to Jesus in the NT. Would you agree?

Here in Texas, the buckle of the bible belt.... no. They dwell on hellfire and brimstone.

 

[davewhite04]

Here in Texas, the buckle of the bible belt.... no. They dwell on hellfire and brimstone.

No wonder people hate religion, and turn away from God.

My mother is in the Salvation Army in England, they never waste anytime threatening hellfire, I think they would have less members.

 

[Pinball1970]

Here in Texas, the buckle of the bible belt.... no. They dwell on hellfire and brimstone.

I think we were taught hell was the absence of god at some point at least.
Was not keen on the Bosch vision.

Funnily enough the ancient Israelites did not have a concept of hell, that came much later with apocalyptic thinking.

Sheol is not hell and neither is Gehenna, often interpreted in modern Bibles as hell.

The OT biggest crime today is verses putting very bad ideas in people's heads about science, homosexuality, witches and racism/slavery.

Jesus seemed to be peaceful but at no point did he renounce any of those verses.