Let Freedom Ring Like a Gunshot

It's the [(expletive)] guns.

  • Total voters
    10
  • Poll closed .
billvon said:
Are you claiming that we argue more here and thus come to violence more often? Definitely not. I've been to a dozen countries from Niger to Japan, and the human tendency to argue is clear in all of them - and happens at about a similar rate.

The big difference here is that we have more guns than people - so for a great many arguments, there is a gun just a reach away. And as soon as you pick up that gun, the outcomes of that argument change radically.

Hopefully you are not arguing that having a gun is essential for political change. A vote is how we do that here.

Hundreds of millions of Americans, apparently.

On another board, a frequent poster talked about how he had to have a gun to protect himself and his family. He was always arguing against the "gun grabbing dems" who were going to take his guns, leaving him defenseless and his family at risk. Then one day something happened. It was probably something minor that escalated. He shot and killed both his daughters, then did the same to his wife. When the police got there he was sitting on the porch with his gun. He then shot and killed himself.

Now, whatever the minor thing was would probably have escalated without the gun. There would have been shouting. Perhaps someone would have been punched or slapped. Then there would be recriminations, perhaps counseling, perhaps even police involvement. But instead there was a gun that turned an argument into four dead.

That's the difference between the US and other countries.
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People become heated over a lot of things and some people truly enjoy pushing those types of buttons. It's an intentional thing more often than not, and these button pushers are or can be too persistent for any type of peaceful relations, with or without guns.

On a national level, guns can or could help United States citizens defended this country and themselves. Without them, we are very much at risk, even with our military, whom I am, more often than not supportive of. National defense is important for ourselves and our kids, but some types seem to be unable to see beyond the gun banning banner hype to support gun ownership.

I hate violence and I'd more than likely take my aggression out on myself before another, but ... Defense is a necessity in life. Out teeth are dull and claws too flimsy to protect without some type of tool to help us overcome real enemies, and although I agree that we need to vote and utilize diplomacy via democratic channels for change, we are not always afforded that opportunity.

I don't own a gun, btw. I just support gun ownership and national defense even in citizen levels. Defense. Not offensive charges or conquest, but defense.

Part of defense comes with out voting choices, but ... Times are too troubled to put our guns away and utilize pens and buttons to defend this nation and our families. What? They have tanks anyway ... What good is a gun gonna be against them? Well, probably better than an ink pen.
 
ThazzarBaal said:
Well, probably better than an ink pen.
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Not necessarily. An AR-15 won't stop the tank rolling down your street, but proper use of a pen might actually help keep the damn thing on base.

And should it turns out a gun is the only reasonable defense against responsible gun owners, that's all the lobby ever wanted.
 
ThazzarBaal said:
People become heated over a lot of things and some people truly enjoy pushing those types of buttons. It's an intentional thing more often than not, and these button pushers are or can be too persistent for any type of peaceful relations, with or without guns.
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Agreed. But again:
Heated argument without guns - yelling, perhaps violence, perhaps police.
Heated argument with guns - shootings.

One outcome is better than the other, even though both are bad.
On a national level, guns can or could help United States citizens defended this country and themselves. Without them, we are very much at risk . . . .
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If you buy a handgun, the people in your home are far more likely to be shot and killed than if you do not buy one. So buying a gun puts you and your family at GREATER risk.

https://time.com/6183881/gun-ownership-risks-at-home/
National defense is important for ourselves and our kids, but some types seem to be unable to see beyond the gun banning banner hype to support gun ownership.
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And some types do not feel safe, masculine or powerful unless they have a gun. These types are one of the reasons we have so much gun violence.
I hate violence and I'd more than likely take my aggression out on myself before another, but ... Defense is a necessity in life. Out teeth are dull and claws too flimsy to protect without some type of tool to help us overcome real enemies, and although I agree that we need to vote and utilize diplomacy via democratic channels for change, we are not always afforded that opportunity.
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If you want to be able to shoot someone in self defense, get a gun. You can't shoot someone without a gun.
If you want to keep yourself and your family safe, do not have any guns in your home.
I don't own a gun, btw. I just support gun ownership and national defense even in citizen levels. Defense. Not offensive charges or conquest, but defense.
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I do as well. However, the cases where someone needs a gun to increase their safety are few and far between. Certain types of armed guards. People in very specific situations. Not everyone.
Times are too troubled to put our guns away and utilize pens and buttons to defend this nation and our families.
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Times are troubled in part BECAUSE of guns.

It's like buying more gasoline and oily rags to store in your garage because there have been so many house fires lately. Should there be a law against oily rags and gasoline? No. But an education campaign to teach people that oily rags and lots of gasoline stored in your garage is a risk might be a very good idea.
 
Tiassa said:
Not necessarily. An AR-15 won't stop the tank rolling down your street, but proper use of a pen might actually help keep the damn thing on base.

And should it turns out a gun is the only reasonable defense against responsible gun owners, that's all the lobby ever wanted.
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I think you missed my point. I like ink pens. I stand firm on the 1st of our bill of rights. I prefer the 1st over the second, actually. The 1st might could help prevent a few rouges but it doesn't guarantee anything. Guns don't either, but ... In some situations, situations that require more than an ink pen, guns may be the only option left for a defense. Spit balls against tanks they may be, but they're better suited for that type of defense than a pen. When diplomacy fails, we go into the second of our bill of rights when and if necessary for national defense. I prefer diplomacy over violence. I prefer the 1st over the second, but I support the second no less than the 1st.
 
billvon said:
Agreed. But again:
Heated argument without guns - yelling, perhaps violence, perhaps police.
Heated argument with guns - shootings.

One outcome is better than the other, even though both are bad.

If you buy a handgun, the people in your home are far more likely to be shot and killed than if you do not buy one. So buying a gun puts you and your family at GREATER risk.

https://time.com/6183881/gun-ownership-risks-at-home/

And some types do not feel safe, masculine or powerful unless they have a gun. These types are one of the reasons we have so much gun violence.

If you want to be able to shoot someone in self defense, get a gun. You can't shoot someone without a gun.
If you want to keep yourself and your family safe, do not have any guns in your home.

I do as well. However, the cases where someone needs a gun to increase their safety are few and far between. Certain types of armed guards. People in very specific situations. Not everyone.

Times are troubled in part BECAUSE of guns.

It's like buying more gasoline and oily rags to store in your garage because there have been so many house fires lately. Should there be a law against oily rags and gasoline? No. But an education campaign to teach people that oily rags and lots of gasoline stored in your garage is a risk might be a very good idea.
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Gun safety should be a gun ownership requirement. Education is important and guns can be dangerous without proper training or safe handling classes. I would suggest this falls under the education category.
 
ThazzarBaal said:
Gun safety should be a gun ownership requirement.
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I agree. But since gun safety instructors have accidentally shot both themselves and their students - that certainly won't solve the problem. It would likely reduce it.
Education is important and guns can be dangerous without proper training or safe handling classes.
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And, clearly, dangerous with education as well.
 
 
sculptor said:
Who?
Where?
When?
How many?
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I always wonder about this. Well, okay, no, not really. But it's true, the question could be viable: How do you not know this? How is it that someone as experienced and informed as you is not aware of the point that a lot of professional gunhandlers are actually pretty reckless with their firearms?

It's almost like people are playing stupid for the fourth wall, and that might work as a pep rally, or for preaching to the choir, but, still, what do you expect the people you're disagreeing with should think when you open with a pretense of ignorance?
 
billvon said:
Here are a few to get you started:

One student shot: https://abc13.com/gun-safety-instructor-student-fire/1123186/
Two students shot: https://www.foxnews.com/us/gun-safety-instructor-who-shot-student-also-shot-girl-in-1977
One student shot: https://www.cnn.com/2013/08/13/us/gun-safety-class-shooting/index.html
Just one again: https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/c...ntally-shoots-student-while-clearing-his-gun/

Instructor shoots himself: https://www.usacarry.com/instructor-shoots-leg-holstering/
Instructor shoots (and kills) himself: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...ny-ortiz-instructors-final-lesson/4888250002/
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Thanx billvon
very entertaining
...reminds me of a computerized printing press repairman who was called to the same plant the third time
whereupon he opined to the pressman
"I can't fix stupid."
The best tool for defense and offense is a properly functioning brain'
and
some folks just ain't got that

speaking of entertaining:
 
Tiassa said:
It's almost like people are playing stupid for the fourth wall . . .
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I've see more than one example of that.

Yeah, sometimes I get the feeling when I am talking about things on other forums, people answer me not to answer my question but to perform for their audience. Politicians do this all day long, of course. But it seems out of place in a real discussion.

(Not saying Sculp is doing that here)
 
billvon said:
Yeah, sometimes I get the feeling when I am talking about things on other forums, people answer me not to answer my question but to perform for their audience.
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+1 on that observation.

There's a lot of it going around on this forum, lately. People trying to impress some imagined and/or invisible audience, rather than engaging in a discussion in good faith.
 
"If your instructor is pulling a gun’s trigger to determine if it’s loaded or not, that’s a good indication that you have the wrong instructor."

Where in hell do they find these guys?
What idiot hired this one?
 
So it's gotten to the point where schools (okay, not plural as yet, I think) install "rapid-deploy bulletproof safe-rooms" as a measure against what they must perceive as the inevitable school shooting. Yeah, sure, it might actually work, but at 60k USD a pop (no pun unintended) wouldn't it be better to use that money to stop guns entering the school in the first place, rather than to deal with them being used? Or is this really the most cost-effective solution: admit defeat in trying to stop it happening, but limit the damage when it does?
And I'm surely not the only one who's thinking about the inevitable time that a pod is successfully locked against a shooter... only for their accomplice to be inside the room. Maybe I've seen too many police dramas on tv, the "so unrealistic, couldn't possibly happen in real life!" type ones.
 
The issue with this problem is that there is no realistic chance of changing the laws/culture enough to take away everyone's gun (s). Forget the 2nd Amendment, even were that not in place, at this point in time, there is no way to rid the US of guns.

It's also true, IMO, that the real issue isn't just about guns, it's the behavior of those with guns who are doing the shooting. Be that as it may, there is a problem but it's not just about taking guns away because that isn't a realistic option. The guns have always been here the shooting haven't always been present to the same extent.

I don't have the solution though. There is a balance that is lacking in our politics however, IMO. There is little common sense.

I moved to Seattle in the early 80's. It was a nice place. We now have a lackadaisical attitude toward drugs, guess what... now we have drugs and drug addicts everywhere. We decided to defund the police and now we have crime everywhere. We now have daily shootings but guns have already been here, just not the daily shootings.

As a country we overstimulated the economy during Covid (somewhat understandable) and we continued to stimulate the economy afterward and now we have inflation.

All of these things are predictable and they aren't necessarily a left vs right issue. It's just a lack of common sense. By the way, "It's the guns" isn't a question so it's odd to make it a poll, don't you think?
 
Seattle said:
All of these things are predictable and they aren't necessarily a left vs right issue. It's just a lack of common sense. By the way, "It's the guns" isn't a question so it's odd to make it a poll, don't you think?
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Really?

These months later, you're still confused?
 
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