Let Freedom Ring Like a Gunshot

It's the [(expletive)] guns.

  • Total voters
    10
  • Poll closed .
billvon said:
What do YOU want to ban? Let's start with that, since no one else here wants to ban all guns as you claimed.
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I like guns. The autos have been largely unavailable the public and lisensable to some. The semi autos I have no issue with, nor most other types, including assault rifles. We means those who propose gun type bans that have not already seen the axe. I'm not one of them.

I don't own a gun. I own .... None.
 
ThazzarBaal said:
Can any nation securely ban guns and remain secure?
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I'm not aware of any nation that bans all guns. Nations tend to have armies and police forces, for instance.
I understand establishing peaceful relations, but ... We have enemies. Every nation has enemies. Do anti gun proponents consider them or do they just not consider us?
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Your 9 year old daughter's pink birthday gun is not likely to protect you from any enemies of your nation. It is quite likely to hurt her, or you, or somebody you know.
ThazzarBaal said:
Guns can be very useful.
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And guns can be very harmful. So what?
It's a tragedy that they are often abused by people.
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No. It's a dereliction of duty. These are avoidable tragedies you're referring to.
People matter. Guns do too .
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Indeed. That's why sensible gun control matters.
 
James R said:
I'm not aware of any nation that bans all guns. Nations tend to have armies and police forces, for instance.

Your 9 year old daughter's pink birthday gun is not likely to protect you from any enemies of your nation. It is quite likely to hurt her, or you, or somebody you know.

And guns can be very harmful. So what?

No. It's a dereliction of duty. These are avoidable tragedies you're referring to.

Indeed. That's why sensible gun control matters.
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Yeah ... 9 year olds seem, hmm ... Umm ... Maybe just a little bit ... Umm ... Too umm ... Young to be um yeah umm playing with umm guns. Don't you think?

Sensible gun ownership certainly is appropriate here. Cops too and yeah umm ... Military and umm you know responsible citizens, or citizens who are umm old enough and adult enough umm to purchase them. Yeah, this seems very reasonable to me, so yeah ... Guns can be useful and quite dangerous in irresponsible hands. I agree.
 
ThazzarBaal said:
Yeah ... 9 year olds seem, hmm ... Umm ... Maybe just a little bit ... Umm ... Too umm ... Young to be um yeah umm playing with umm guns. Don't you think?
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?? Not in the US. Kristi Noem, republican governor of South Dakota, has already given her 22 month old Addie several firearms. "Now Addie, who you know, soon will need them, I want to reassure you, she already has a shotgun and she already has a rifle, and she's got a little pony named Sparkles too. So the girl is set up."

But you mentioned 9 year olds. This is a story from about 8 years back:

"A 9-year-old girl at a shooting range outside Las Vegas accidentally killed an instructor on Monday morning when she lost control of the Uzi he was showing her how to use."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...hands-9-year-old-an-uzi-now-hes-dead/?hpid=z3

There are a few dozen shootings a year where a 2 to 10 year old shoots and kills a family member or a friend, and this is not likely to change. If you proposed keeping guns from kids, you would be attacked, vilified and likely called a pedophile by conservatives.
 
A quick check, approx 550 accidental gun deaths in the US per year.

If they started to advertise the dangers, via public information films we used to get in the UK in the 1970s, that could be a start.
Start with keep them away from children?

Would anyone in their right mind object to that?
 
billvon said:
?? Not in the US. Kristi Noem, republican governor of South Dakota, has already given her 22 month old Addie several firearms. "Now Addie, who you know, soon will need them, I want to reassure you, she already has a shotgun and she already has a rifle, and she's got a little pony named Sparkles too. So the girl is set up."

But you mentioned 9 year olds. This is a story from about 8 years back:

"A 9-year-old girl at a shooting range outside Las Vegas accidentally killed an instructor on Monday morning when she lost control of the Uzi he was showing her how to use."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...hands-9-year-old-an-uzi-now-hes-dead/?hpid=z3

There are a few dozen shootings a year where a 2 to 10 year old shoots and kills a family member or a friend, and this is not likely to change. If you proposed keeping guns from kids, you would be attacked, vilified and likely called a pedophile by conservatives.
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You'll need to verify the uzi incident, but I don't doubt the gifts kept up until ready Addi.

I had a couple as a kid, but they were locked up and I was supervised when target practicing and hunting. We fished too. Oh, we also went boating and skiing, and camping a lot.

21 years before a hand gun is legally bought, and while rifles, shotguns, etc are typically adult oriented buys ... I think 18, kids use them but this is typically supervised use, so again .. responsible gun use is not only recommended it is also. expected.

Lots of things can fall into a kids hands. I tried to drive my mother's car at age 7. Go figure .... She comes running out, jumps in the door of the car and slams on the brakes as I was heading backwards downhill toward the gas pumps.

Lucky kid I was. No keys mind you ... Just a lever on next to the wheel and a little kid in the driver's seat. Yup.
 
Pinball1970 said:
A quick check, approx 550 accidental gun deaths in the US per year.

If they started to advertise the dangers, via public information films we used to get in the UK in the 1970s, that could be a start.
Start with keep them away from children?

Would anyone in their right mind object to that?
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Unfortunately a "right mind" is somewhat defined by the culture said mind dwells in. At the heart of the culture wars in the US is a rural/urban divide, where those from a rural culture (largely white, Christian, and distrustful of a federal government that feels distant from their concerns) see urban culture as either indifferent or hostile to their traditions. (I currently live in a hilly region on the west end of South Dakota, which offers front row seats on these cultural anxieties) So they tend to cling fiercely, sometimes irrationally, to certain things that concretely symbolize traditions of rural freedom and being unfettered by government interference. Such are guns. And their Right Wing news machines are constantly feeding them little fables of righteous gun ownership which have no relation to the present reality of how all these guns are actually used.

To be fair, there are some ranchers out here who would tell you, privately, that they don't need an AR-15 to drive off a cougar or hunt deer, and they could see the virtue of tougher background checks (etc), but those views don't move them to vote for more centrist politicians who might work for stricter gun laws. Everything is hideously polarized now. That's how Trump Twits like our current governor (the aforementioned Ms Noem) gain traction.
 
TheVat said:
Unfortunately a "right mind" is somewhat defined by the culture said mind dwells in. At the heart of the culture wars in the US is a rural/urban divide, where those from a rural culture (largely white, Christian, and distrustful of a federal government that feels distant from their concerns) see urban culture as either indifferent or hostile to their traditions. (I currently live in a hilly region on the west end of South Dakota, which offers front row seats on these cultural anxieties) So they tend to cling fiercely, sometimes irrationally, to certain things that concretely symbolize traditions of rural freedom and being unfettered by government interference. Such are guns. And their Right Wing news machines are constantly feeding them little fables of righteous gun ownership which have no relation to the present reality of how all these guns are actually used.

To be fair, there are some ranchers out here who would tell you, privately, that they don't need an AR-15 to drive off a cougar or hunt deer, and they could see the virtue of tougher background checks (etc), but those views don't move them to vote for more centrist politicians who might work for stricter gun laws. Everything is hideously polarized now. That's how Trump Twits like our current governor (the aforementioned Ms Noem) gain traction.
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Speaking as a Brit who is not clued up too much on this, a naive view.
There are certain guns they should just ban, automatic, military grade weapons. Nation wide ban.
What is the justification for having them?
Besides US forces and SWAT?
They could try a state by state ban too, obviously not start with Texas, low hanging fruit, have a referendum on the subject.
Impose huge fines for trying to take arms across a state that has restrictions/bans.
Above all education.

It would help if you had a candidate brave enough to say what they would do on this matter however IF elected.
Watching US politics debates that would be career suicide unfortunately.
 
 
ThazzarBaal said:
You'll need to verify the uzi incident
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Gmilan verified for you! Thanks Gmilan.
Lots of things can fall into a kids hands. I tried to drive my mother's car at age 7. Go figure ....
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Yep, kids will do things like that. Fortunately you didn't do that with a gun, or you (or members of your family) might not be here today.

I would also find it very strange if someone's parents bought them a car at age 7. Indeed, I would suspect that there was some other motive in play than "we just wanted to make sure he had a car when he was older."
 
gmilam said:
And you seem like a troll.

They have it on video.
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I may be ... It's anyone's hypothesis I guess. I tried going to range not too long ago, but I couldn't. They operate under a buddy type system. I couldn't go solo, so I didn't. A 9 year old, eh? A 9 year old with an uzi... Those are fully auto. Crazy range to be certain.

Sincerely...

Troll
 
Pinball1970 said:
Speaking as a Brit who is not clued up too much on this, a naive view.
There are certain guns they should just ban, automatic, military grade weapons. Nation wide ban.
What is the justification for having them?
Besides US forces and SWAT?
They could try a state by state ban too, obviously not start with Texas, low hanging fruit, have a referendum on the subject.
Impose huge fines for trying to take arms across a state that has restrictions/bans.
Above all education.

It would help if you had a candidate brave enough to say what they would do on this matter however IF elected.
Watching US politics debates that would be career suicide unfortunately.
Click to expand...

I'm in the melancholy place of agreeing with your measures but feeling I need to shoot down (where did I get that metaphor from?) most of them down.

First, yes, serious gun bans are a sort of political third rail no one wants to touch.

Military assault weapons (fully automatic) are banned already, but there are several loopholes which allow gun enthusiasts to fiddle with semi-automatic weapons and make them fully automatic. There is also a lengthy application process that will allow owning an automatic that was manufactured before 1986. Suppressing such alterations and exceptions is an endless game of Whack-a-Mole, AFAICT.

State bans are a start, but ultimately are weakened by the high porosity of our state borders.

As for the justification for having anything beyond a deer rifle or a handgun for home protection, it is a sort-of "what if" form of justification. What if we banned assault-style rifles, would that be a slippery slope to cancelling the 2nd Amendment and all gun rights? What if maurauders burst into your home with assault-rifles, you must be able to match their firepower! If we allow strict gun controls, we will allow a godless Maoist brigade to follow them up by stamping out religion and red meat and then putting us all in reeducation camps where we're forced to love trans people and tofu!

IOW, what is conjured is a sort of zombie army of strawman arguments based on extremely rare scenarios or highly improbable future hypotheticals. A more honest argument would have been "We love guns for the tradition of rural self-reliance they represent, they help us feel our rural culture has not been swallowed by the urban Borg Collective." But that's not a terribly compelling argument.

So those who would like to see us move towards a Euro/UK/Japan model of limited civilian gun access live in a zone of lowered expectations and tiny increments of change, if any. Any real change would be a vast cultural shift, the kind that tends to take many lifespans.
 
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