Is Time Real? What Is Time?

Status
Not open for further replies.
TIMELESS

Today’s scientists are like religious gurus of earlier times. Whatever they say are accepted as divine truths by lay public as well as the philosophers. When mystics have said that time is unreal, nobody has paid any heed to them. Rather there were some violent reactions against it. Here are some examples:
“G.E. Moore pointed out that if time is unreal then there are no temporal facts: nothing is past, present or future, and nothing is earlier or later than anything else. But, plainly, it is false that there are no temporal facts, for it is a fact that I am presently inscribing this sentence and that my breakfast yesterday preceded my lunch.”
- Richard M. Gale
[Book: the philosophy of time, edited by Richard M. Gale, Publisher: Macmillan, 1962, Chapter: Introduction to Section Two, The static versus the dynamic temporal, page 69.]
“First of all, what can be meant by saying that time is unreal? If we really meant what we say, we must mean that such statements as “this is before that” are mere empty noise, like “twas brillig.” If we suppose anything less than these – as for example, that there is a relation between events which puts them in the same order as the relation of earlier and later, but that it is a different relation – we shall not have made any assertion that makes any real change in our outlook. It will be merely like supposing that Iliad was not written by Homer, but by another man of the same name. We have to suppose that there are no “events” at all; there must be only the one vast whole of the universe, embracing whatever is real in the misleading appearance of a temporal procession. There must be nothing in reality corresponding to the apparent distinction between earlier and later events. To say that we are born, and then grow, and then die, must be just as false as to say that we die, then grow small, and finally are born. The truth of what seems an individual life is merely the illusory isolation of one element in the timeless and indivisible being of the universe. There is no distinction between improvement and deterioration, no difference between sorrows that end in happiness and happiness that ends in sorrow. If you find a corpse with a dagger in it, it makes no difference whether the man died of the wound or the dagger was plunged in after death. Such a view, if true, puts an end, not only to science, but to prudence, hope, and effort; it is incompatible with worldly wisdom, and – what is more important to religion – with morality.”
- Bertrand Russell
[Mysticism, Book: religion and science, Publisher: Oxford University Press, 1961.]
But when scientists have shown that at the speed of light time becomes unreal, these same philosophers have simply kept mum. Here also they could have raised their voice of protest. They could have said something like this: “We will never accept the statement that time is unreal. Then why are you wasting your valuable time, money, and energy by explaining to us as to how this time can become unreal? Are you mad?” Had they reacted like this, then that would have been consistent with their earlier outbursts. But they had not. This clearly indicates that a blind faith in science is working here. Or, perhaps they were awed and cowed down by the scientists. If mystics were mistaken in saying that time is unreal, then why is the same mistake being repeated by the scientists? Why are they now saying that there is no real division of time as past, present and future in the actual world? If there is no such division of time, then is time real, or, unreal? Thus spake Einstein when his lifelong friend Michele Besso died, “Now he has departed from this strange world a little ahead of me. That means nothing. People like us, who believe in physics, know that the distinction between past, present and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion.” And thus spake scientist Paul Davies, “The most profound puzzle of all is the fact that whatever we may experience mentally, time does not pass, nor there exist a past, present and future. These statements are so stunning that most scientists lead a sort of dual life, accepting them in the laboratory, but rejecting them without thought in the daily life.” [Book: Other worlds, Publisher: J. M. Dent & Sons Ltd., 1980, Prologue, Page 14.] Is this very recent statement made by a scientist that “time does not pass” anything different from the much earlier statement made by the mystics that “time is unreal”?
Now some scientists are trying to establish that mystics did not get their sense of spacelessness, timelessness through their meeting with a real divine being. Rather they got this sense from their own brain. But these scientists have forgotten one thing. They have forgotten that scientists are only concerned with the actual world, not with what some fools and idiots might have uttered while they were in deep trance. So if they at all explain as to how something can be timeless, then they will do so not because the parietal lobe of these mystics’ brain was almost completely shut down when they received their sense of timelessness, but because, and only because, there was, or, there was and still is, a timeless state in this universe.
God is said to be spaceless, timeless. If someone now says that God does not exist, then the sentence “God is said to be spaceless, timeless” (S) can have three different meanings. S can mean:
a) Nothing was/is spaceless, timeless in this universe (A),
b) Not God, but someone else has been said to be spaceless, timeless here (B),
c) Not God, but something else has been said to be spaceless, timeless here (C).
It can be shown that if it is true that God does not exist, and if S is also true, then S can only mean C, but neither A nor B. If S means A, then the two words “spaceless” and “timeless” become as meaningless as the word “brillig” (cited by Russell in his quotation mentioned above). By the word “brillig” we cannot indicate a person, a thing, an action, a property, a relation, or any other thing. Similarly, if S means A, then by the two words “spaceless” and “timeless” we cannot indicate anyone or anything, simply because in this universe never there was, is, and will be, anyone or anything that could be properly called spaceless, timeless. Now the very big question is: how can some scientists find meaning and significance in a word like “timeless” that has got no meaning and significance in the real world? If nothing was timeless in the past, then time was not unreal in the past. If nothing is timeless at present, then time is not unreal at present. If nothing will be timeless in future, then time will not be unreal in future. If in this universe time was never unreal, if it is not now, and if it will never be, then why was it necessary for them to show as to how time could be unreal? If nothing was/is/will be timeless, then it can in no way be the business, concern, or headache of the scientists to show how anything can be timeless. If no one in this universe is immortal, then it can in no way be the business, concern, or headache of the scientists to show how anyone can be immortal. Simply, it is none of their business. So, what compelling reason was there behind their action here? If we cannot find any such compelling reason here, then we will be forced to conclude that scientists are involved in some useless activities here that have got no connection whatsoever with the actual world, and thus we lose complete faith in science. Therefore we cannot accept A as the proper meaning of S, as this will reduce some activities of the scientists to simply useless activities.
Now can we accept B as the proper meaning of S? No, we cannot. Because there is no real difference in meaning between this sentence and S. It is like saying that Iliad was not written by Homer, but by another man of the same name (Russell). So, if S is true, then it can only mean that not God, but something else has been said to be spaceless, timeless. Now, what is this “something else” (SE)? Is it still in the universe? Or, was it in the past? Here there are two possibilities:
a) In the past there was something in this universe that was spaceless, timeless,
b) That spaceless, timeless thing (STT) is still there.
We know that the second possibility will not be acceptable to atheists and scientists. So we will proceed with the first one. If STT was in the past, then was it in the very recent past? Or, was it in the universe billions and billions of years ago? Was only a tiny portion of the universe in spaceless, timeless condition? Or, was the whole universe in that condition? Modern science tells us that before the big bang that took place 13.7 billion years ago there was neither space, nor time. Space and time came into being along with the big bang only. So we can say that before the big bang this universe was in a spaceless, timeless state. So it may be that this is the STT. Is this STT then that SE of which mystics spoke when they said that God is spaceless, timeless? But this STT cannot be SE for several reasons. Because it was there 13.7 billion years ago. And man has appeared on earth only 2 to 3 million years ago. And mystical literatures are at the most 2500 years old, if not even less than that. So, if we now say that STT is SE, then we will have to admit that mystics have somehow come to know that almost 13.7 billion years ago this universe was in a spaceless, timeless condition, which is unbelievable. Therefore we cannot accept that STT is SE. The only other alternative is that this SE was not in the external world at all. As scientist Victor J. Stenger has said, so we can also say that this SE was in mystics’ head only. But if SE was in mystics’ head only, then why was it not kept buried there? Why was it necessary for the scientists to drag it in the outside world, and then to show as to how a state of timelessness could be reached? If mystics’ sense of timelessness was in no way connected with the external world, then how will one justify scientists’ action here? Did these scientists think that the inside of the mystics’ head is the real world? And so, when these mystics got their sense of timelessness from their head only and not from any other external source, then that should only be construed as a state of timelessness in the real world? And therefore, as scientists they were obliged to show as to how that state could be reached?
We can conclude this essay with the following observations: If mystical experience is a hallucination, then SE cannot be in the external world. Because in that case mystics’ sense of spacelessness, timelessness will have a correspondence with some external fact, and therefore it will no longer remain a hallucination. But if SE is in mystics’ head only, then that will also create a severe problem. Because in that case we are admitting that the inside of mystics’ head is the real world for the scientists. That is why when mystics get their sense of timelessness from their brain, that sense is treated by these scientists as a state of timelessness in the real world, and accordingly they proceed to explain as to how that state can be reached. And we end up this essay with this absurd statement: If mystical experience is a hallucination, then the inside of mystics’ head is the real world for the scientists.
H.S.Pal
I recommend a course on creative writing. When I see such a block of letters I normally just skip it, when it consists of junk like time is a fiction then I skip it quickly.

Yes time is real, it seems once upon a time there was a big bang and ever since then Time thought that was a very bad idea and is determined to make all our little sub atomic particles expire back into the abyss.

Time is my favorite subject in physics, I believe there is in fact an arrow of time.. there is no cycle or if there is it has its own rules not tied to ours.


However if one knows enough variables he can predict the future, this doesn't mean time is a farse. And the notion that time is only an object of human conscious is silly, an atom doesn't have a conscious yet it also decays with time.

Relativity tells us time is affected by energy, and energy in the form of velocity and gravity. This means since everything is in motion relative to everything else there is no way we can sit down and calculate times true value, but it must have one. Time must have a constant rate of progress else relativity wouldn't be so accurate, then again we haven't been taking these measurement very long but we can only make assumptions based on evidence no matter how short our period of enlightenment is compared to the age of the universe. If we notice our clocks rates are changing in experiments in 2,000 years then we can start wondering, however until then I think its safe to say time must have a steady rate of change.. it must be a constant vector and a reality of the universe.

I would imagine if one could sit back and subtract all the dilation from velocity and gravitation in the universe one would find time is in a hurry to make the universe expire.. while the universe seems built in a way to slow down time as much as possible. Makes me think of the battle between the nuclear force and gravity in a star.. the weaker yet steady force wins in the end...
 
I recommend a course on creative writing. When I see such a block of letters I normally just skip it, when it consists of junk like time is a fiction then I skip it quickly.

Yes time is real, it seems once upon a time there was a big bang and ever since then Time thought that was a very bad idea and is determined to make all our little sub atomic particles expire back into the abyss.

Time is my favorite subject in physics, I believe there is in fact an arrow of time.. there is no cycle or if there is it has its own rules not tied to ours.


However if one knows enough variables he can predict the future, this doesn't mean time is a farse. And the notion that time is only an object of human conscious is silly, an atom doesn't have a conscious yet it also decays with time.

Relativity tells us time is affected by energy, and energy in the form of velocity and gravity. This means since everything is in motion relative to everything else there is no way we can sit down and calculate times true value, but it must have one. Time must have a constant rate of progress else relativity wouldn't be so accurate, then again we haven't been taking these measurement very long but we can only make assumptions based on evidence no matter how short our period of enlightenment is compared to the age of the universe. If we notice our clocks rates are changing in experiments in 2,000 years then we can start wondering, however until then I think its safe to say time must have a steady rate of change.. it must be a constant vector and a reality of the universe.

I would imagine if one could sit back and subtract all the dilation from velocity and gravitation in the universe one would find time is in a hurry to make the universe expire.. while the universe seems built in a way to slow down time as much as possible. Makes me think of the battle between the nuclear force and gravity in a star.. the weaker yet steady force wins in the end...

You are wrong, just because an atom decays over what ''we call'' a time period, is not an evidence that an atom personally, subjectively experiences a time frame. Time does not necesserily equal change, in fact.

In recent conversations with alphanumeric, time can in fact cease to exist at all, in the way we experience it. For there to be a change, or succession of events, there needs to be a true defined arrow - in fact, time requires it has a flow; modern physics is clearly quite indicating that time does not have a flow. In fact, there may be no such thing as an absolute set of events which defines a change, as found in the Wheeler de Witt equation, which comes from quantizing Einsteins field equations.
 
Change has nothing to do with time, time does exist and yes it is a one way vector or arrow and until someone proves otherwise by building a time machine thats IT. You can speculate all you want nobody has ever come to us from the future and we have never witnessed a state of localy frozen time. As you cannot find anyone today where they were at yesterday.. that means there is in fact an arrow of time.

I'd like if you could explain how there could be no arrow of time, defining change doesn't cut it with me and loopholes in theory don't mean much either. I want to know where I can go in the universe to see time cease to exist.
 
Change has nothing to do with time, time does exist and yes it is a one way vector or arrow and until someone proves otherwise by building a time machine thats IT. You can speculate all you want nobody has ever come to us from the future and we have never witnessed a state of localy frozen time. As you cannot find anyone today where they were at yesterday.. that means there is in fact an arrow of time.

I'd like if you could explain how there could be no arrow of time, defining change doesn't cut it with me and loopholes in theory don't mean much either. I want to know where I can go in the universe to see time cease to exist.

No offense, but you must have a narrow understanding of why we even sense a time pass:

Time is due to a gene called the Suprachiasmatic Nucleus, present in many animals, even bugs.

This is why we have atleast several clocks in the human body, including the clock we sense as that inexorable arrow pointing in a certain directionality. I believe what General Relativity says, and in face of the facts, I also believe time is a construct of our genetics, not some cosmic arrow pointing in the sky.

Even if you wanted to have an arrow of time, how do you define? There is no specification of a center of a universe? How does one even draw an arrow to conclude it's linear in its framework? Time is not linear. Time is more like a sphere, with a geometry. And every point on that geometry was the beginning of time.
 
So broken eggs do unsplatter, we just don't see it happen?
 
I find it very hard to believe AlphaNumeric is encouraging this kind of dribble. Are you serious your basically playing the whole perception thing.. thats for philosophy not science. Would you prefer we just toss our hands up and give up since our perception is lying to us ??

The center of the universe??? Seriously? There is no center of the universe because there is no prefered frame of reference, actually if you want to be specific at one time me and you were at the center of the universe it simply expanded to this point.

And the arrow of time means time starts at inflation, and goes forward.. it can go faster, slower and it can appear to stop from an observers perspective... but it always goes forward. Hence arrow...
 
I find it very hard to believe AlphaNumeric is encouraging this kind of dribble.
No, I actually disagreed with him and have explained why in this thread. GD misunderstood something I said and he's just parroting back things he's read and misunderstood. He read some essays by competent physicists on the subject of quantum gravity and now seems to be throwing it into any thread he can manage, in attempts to appear well read. Of course trying to engage him in a discussion where he engages his brain is fruitless as he doesn't actually understand things like the Wheeler de Witt equation or the important differences between things like typical general relativity or quantum mechanics and the formalism within which the WdW equation is constructed.

There's a great deal of subtly involves in how you view space and time in a quantum gravity formalism as you're talking about the very 'arena' within which events occur, rather than talking about things in said arena (as you would with quantum electrodynamics say). Furthermore there's the issue of how coordinates used in physics are not automatically the physical directions we normally think of. GD has demonstrated he doesn't understand polar or Schwarzchild coordinates, despite polar coordinates being required knowledge for things like electromagnetism, which he claims to have done a bit of 'work' in but his attempt in Pseudo got completely destroyed. If he doesn't grasp something as basic as a high school concept the specifics of diffeomorphic invariance and coordinate charts on non-trivial manifolds are definitely out of his grasp, hence his confusion.

To give an example of how common misconceptions can arise consider the Wiki page where it says "In fact, the principle of general covariance in general relativity implies that global evolution per se does not exist; t is just a label we assign to one of the coordinate axes.". Its tempting to view this as saying "Time doesn't exist" but what it actually means is that if you are not working with the nice Euclidean notions of space and time and have highly non-trivial coordinate structures to consider (ie all this stuff about diffeomorphisms) then you cannot apriori assume that the coordinates labelled with familiar letters like 't' or 'r' stand for time or radius. This is precisely the point Temur is trying to explain to GD in the thread I just linked to. What might be the 'time coordinate' to one person somewhere in a space-time might be the spacial coordinate to another person. This occurs in Kerr black holes where two coordinates associated to 'time' and 'space' swap roles within the ergosphere, allowing for such nifty things as the Penrose process.

And to make it clear here by 'time direction' I mean the one whose metric sign upon diagonalisation is negative under the -+++ convention. In the ergosphere this becomes +-++.

No offense, but you must have a narrow understanding of why we even sense a time pass:
And you have a profoundly ignorant view of how science is done and your approach to it is very dishonest. The fact you have the hypocrisy to call other people's understanding 'narrow' when you make no attempt to expand your own in any intellectually honest way borders on the contemptible.
 
Wait a minute, I never said alphanumeric agreed with my latest post. I said we were involved in a discussion on the subject, and behold, I am talking about it here. Learn not to jump the gun.

And with that all aside cracker, you've made absolutely no comment on the biological fact that our sense of time is due to the suprachiasmatic nucleus.

Let me guess why? (sarcasm)
 
In recent conversations with alphanumeric, time can in fact cease to exist at all, in the way we experience it. For there to be a change, or succession of events, there needs to be a true defined arrow - in fact, time requires it has a flow; modern physics is clearly quite indicating that time does not have a flow. In fact, there may be no such thing as an absolute set of events which defines a change, as found in the Wheeler de Witt equation, which comes from quantizing Einsteins field equations.

You are clearly using his name to add weight to your misunderstanding of time.

Even if you wanted to have an arrow of time, how do you define? There is no specification of a center of a universe? How does one even draw an arrow to conclude it's linear in its framework? Time is not linear. Time is more like a sphere, with a geometry. And every point on that geometry was the beginning of time.

You state there is no specification of a center of a universe as a question?? So I cleared it up for you it seemed to me you were asking if there being no specified center of the universe from our frame of reference was a correct statement. Time is a VECTOR it starts at the beginning and goes one way, think about this and please really try to understand this example.

I give you a set of coordinates to reach, 3 spatial coordinates and 1 time coordinate. Why do I have to give you a time coordinate? Because if you go to that spot in space yet at the wrong place in time you are not at the correct location. Now if you show up late.. then you have missed the chance to be there at all. You have to consider EVERYTHING is in motion relative to everything else, that means we will never be exactly where we are now ever again. Which way do we go in spacetime? we go forwards, how do we know that? Because we cannot see the future, all we can see is the past light cone. Even the light from your monitor travels in time to your eyes, this is because time moves forward faster than light moves. So time is real, its a moving vector and though we can slow it down we cannot turn it backwards. Even in black holes where time theoretically goes backwards so does space, so in effect outside our universe because not only is time bent backwards on itself so is space, again this gives us no way to go back in time in the universe we would have to in effect leave our universe entirely to seperate ourselves from time and space. However its debatable if in doing that you would escape time or space you may just discover a new space and a new time separate from this one.

And what tells us that there is indeed time and it goes forward, anything we can do slows down time. That means if you take away all the energy and mass in the entire universe you still have time and its moving much faster it doesn't go away at all. The only way to exit this arrow of time is to exit this space as well more or less, so you might say time as we know it doesn't exist inside a singularity.. but thats it.

Other than that what I am trying to describe to you is how time moves forward and how that forward movement is a vector and not an illusion. The only way one could step back and view the universe in motion with the future light cone is by a preferred frame of reference which does not exist but for theoretical work, its not a reality we can ever go to in this lifetime lol.
 
You are clearly using his name to add weight to your misunderstanding of time.



You state there is no specification of a center of a universe as a question?? So I cleared it up for you it seemed to me you were asking if there being no specified center of the universe from our frame of reference was a correct statement. Time is a VECTOR it starts at the beginning and goes one way, think about this and please really try to understand this example.

I give you a set of coordinates to reach, 3 spatial coordinates and 1 time coordinate. Why do I have to give you a time coordinate? Because if you go to that spot in space yet at the wrong place in time you are not at the correct location. Now if you show up late.. then you have missed the chance to be there at all. You have to consider EVERYTHING is in motion relative to everything else, that means we will never be exactly where we are now ever again. Which way do we go in spacetime? we go forwards, how do we know that? Because we cannot see the future, all we can see is the past light cone. Even the light from your monitor travels in time to your eyes, this is because time moves forward faster than light moves. So time is real, its a moving vector and though we can slow it down we cannot turn it backwards. Even in black holes where time theoretically goes backwards so does space, so in effect outside our universe because not only is time bent backwards on itself so is space, again this gives us no way to go back in time in the universe we would have to in effect leave our universe entirely to seperate ourselves from time and space. However its debatable if in doing that you would escape time or space you may just discover a new space and a new time separate from this one.

And what tells us that there is indeed time and it goes forward, anything we can do slows down time. That means if you take away all the energy and mass in the entire universe you still have time and its moving much faster it doesn't go away at all. The only way to exit this arrow of time is to exit this space as well more or less, so you might say time as we know it doesn't exist inside a singularity.. but thats it.

Other than that what I am trying to describe to you is how time moves forward and how that forward movement is a vector and not an illusion. The only way one could step back and view the universe in motion with the future light cone is by a preferred frame of reference which does not exist but for theoretical work, its not a reality we can ever go to in this lifetime lol.

Shush for a moment. I said exactly this:

''And with that all aside cracker, you've made absolutely no comment on the biological fact that our sense of time is due to the suprachiasmatic nucleus.''

Now, forget all that above. Quite clearly in the sentance just provided, you cannot deny that we sense a time because of a gene, now can you?

So how does this justify an arrow of time. Explain this to me, so that I may come to understand?
 
Also, it should be common knowledge now that me and alphanumeric rarely agree. Secondly, the thread in which this was all discussed, was only just recently closed, so it's not as if I was referring to alphanumeric because ''we agreed'' - it was a topic I was currently in talks about - nevertheless, alphanumeric will agree he's come to understand a new thing in physics he did not know about before. That is the timelessness exhibited by General Relativity and how it causes the problem of time in quantum mechanics, if you'd like to know.
 
It is possible to configure Time is Computer Generated. Like saying quartz movement is mechanical. Maybe I'll finish this thought later when I come back.
 
Shush for a moment. I said exactly this:

''And with that all aside cracker, you've made absolutely no comment on the biological fact that our sense of time is due to the suprachiasmatic nucleus.''

Now, forget all that above. Quite clearly in the sentance just provided, you cannot deny that we sense a time because of a gene, now can you?

So how does this justify an arrow of time. Explain this to me, so that I may come to understand?

I really don't see your point. Humans are aware of the passage of time because of a biological oddity which other animals do not have? Even granting that, what has that to do with the concepts of time and entropy in physics? Nothing.
 
Animals are not aware of their own existence and its significance either, they are aware of food, shelter, the opposite sex, and other survival things. Why does our awareness of whats around us matter? You think if we were not aware of the passing seasons and minutes and were only concentrated on NOW as an animal is that time wouldn't exist?

Thats wrong in many ways. I don't care what gene or what neurons mark the passing of time, that is irrelevant. OUr perception of the world around is is complex and advanced, animals perception deals with its survival only, we have evolved so that our survival depends on seasons and time, crops and such. We can see plainly in the earth that even though before humans were alive to percieve time, time existed. The records we view in the universe are not an illusion, perception is simply understanding nothing more. I bet if you go back in evolution when that gene came around we started planting crops and marking the seasons.. does that mean there were no seasons before then?? of course not. We weren't around bilions of years ago yet time moved on without us to watch it.

If you can't accept that then you my friend can't accept anything you see at all, you may as well believe you are in a sim game or something. What do you want us to do stop trying to understand the universe and see if it goes away? lol I don't know about this one.
 
The concept of time, and thus "time" is derived from the ability of human beings to act.

If human action did not occur the all natural motion/action is caused by thermo/electro dynamic processes and because of the cyclic nature of such applications, there is no start and no end because the line of consequence forms a loop.

Time therefore is only a limitation on life forms, and in reality simply does not exits.

Time is not an abstract.
Time simply put is a description of movement.
Thus Time is movement.
 
Time is the stuff that Maxwell's demon doesn't have enough of.

Since each molecule of gas has an average velocity, and occupies one of N 'partitions' the demon is unable to determine when any of them is approaching the trapdoor. Because the demon can't determine the path of any molecule this is "missing information" and we all know what that is--thermodynamic entropy.

There is a strong connection (apparently) to algorithmic entropy. The demon is equivalent to those programs that never halt for a given Turing machine, i.e. they never print a result.
 
Say what?
No objections to: "the demon is unable to determine when any molecule is approaching the trapdoor"? Why can't it 'see' which molecules have the required velocity, and sort them by opening the trapdoor? Does this violate the second law of thermodynamics?

Why can't the demon be just a spring-loaded mechanism which is activated by those molecules with a high enough velocity that the trapdoor opens? Does an algorithm exist that defeats the second law somehow?

Note that Maxwell originally used this thought experiment to support the experimental evidence that heat flows from a hotter to a colder place, or equivalently, molecules with kinetic energy will occupy as much space as possible.
So how does all this affect our notion of what time is?
 
Ok, I think the OP and (you)? would like to see an updated IMG:

 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top