In other words and put in more down to earth language, there are women who are simply low life and arseholes, just like their male counterparts...numbers are probably less, but there is no denying that fact.
How to spot misogynists and misandrists
- Thread starter wegs
- Start date
We have clinical terms for them now...misandrists and misogynists. I was wondering when you were going to join this conversation.
I've been away and off grid wegs, but let me assure you that I'm all for the "average"women in her attempts for equality and will do all in my part to achieve this. Noting that much already has been achieved.We have clinical terms for them now...misandrists and misogynists. I was wondering when you were going to join this conversation.
There is no doubt that misogyny and misandry have their roots in childhood trauma generated by a serious "betrayal of trust" placed in parent(s), adults and society generally. IMO
Theory:
The sort of abuse can be extreme yet to make it adhere to the psych it usually has to involve some form of memory entrenched sexual arousal prior to a child being able to emotionally accommodate it. ( prepubescent) This imprints a future, a hormonal template, as the child later matures through puberty...
ie. Father forcing young child (toddler -male or female) to watch pornography with him...and so on. Or forced to witness repeated raping of the mother....forcing premature erotic arousal of an incredibly perverse nature upon a child.
A reason why pedophilia is such a devastating and complex issue.
- Memories blocked out due to the shame and guilt associated.
- Societal dysfunction due to intense need to hide secrets with a deep paranoia associated.
- Inability to trust any one. (especially them selves )
resulting in most often sociopathy, misogyny.. misandry, homophobia and extreme personal isolation where intimacy is almost impossible etc...
** replace "father" with any trusted authority figure.
Test sentence:
"The burden of secrets kept and the intense loneliness of being unable to share except in silent knowing-ness with those who have and are experiencing similar trauma" aka Incel culture.
so many questions,
How do keeping humiliating secrets effect the quality of relationships?
How does the keeping of secrets prevent genuine intimacy?
How does forcing a child into a bond of adult erotic secrets destroy any hope of happiness for that child in the future?
How does the threat of intimacy, thus potential betrayal of the secrets kept, invoke the apparent hatred towards those who are inadvertently being that threat?
and so on...
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Bells
Staff member
Can you please support your claims with some actual scientific studies, please? This is a science forum, and your theory and the whole claims "there is no doubt", such as:
Does need to be supported.
With actual evidence, such as studies. Thank you.
Could you provide some links to some of those studies please? Thank you.
Does need to be supported.
With actual evidence, such as studies. Thank you.
Could you provide some links to some of those studies please? Thank you.
I appreciate your desire to maintain a scientific focus.
If you could tell us all what you mean by scientific research and studies, including how they are determined to be such I/we would appreciate it.
If you mean research and studies published in peer review magazines, then I retract my comments as I have no intention of looking for them.
The ability to research this subject is not only in it's infancy, it is also incredibly difficult to garner information that can be relied upon due to the sensitivity of the subject to the victim.
Unfortunately my own personal experience, research and studies are not counted as scientific.
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DaveC426913
Valued Senior Member
Are you suggesting studies of misogyny and misanthropy are in their infancy?
Are you suggesting that this is not a well-studied area of human dynamics because governments, agencies and law enforcement organizations find it too sensitive to analyze?
Sorry, perhaps a better term would have been ''research'' has shown. (Note, in the above post, I'm not merely suggesting incels in general, rather incels who have a deep hatred for women aka misogynists)
https://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/article/men-hating-women
https://voicemalemagazine.org/mother-wound-as-missing-link/
https://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/psychpedia/misogyny
No ... I am suggesting that it is difficult area to scientifically research because of the sensitivity of the victims.
reread my post:
The direct correlation between the various forms of child abuse and various forms of misogyny ( I don't know to much about misanthropy (?) although I am confident it would be more or less the same) is due to the very nature of statistical research, unable to be conclusive.
Reliance on personal testimony and other anecdotal evidence is probably not as "scientific" as some may like...
For example:
Asking a convicted pedophile about his early prepubescent sexual experience would not be particularly useful (Example question: How reliable are recall-able early child hood memories?). Like wise a confessed misogynist...who may have been a victim of the various forms of pedophilia or exposed to other forms of abuse/exploitation.
Regardless it is quite a plausible hypothesis to state that prepubescent male children growing up in a household where violence and hatred towards women is acceptable to the father and ignored by a society, could lead to an adult future involving similar behavior...or in the very least an ongoing potentially life long inner struggle in dealing with the "crimes" committed against him whilst so emotionally and physically immature. IMO.
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I would be very interested in reading your thoughts and Bells thoughts on this subject of how to identify a misogynist/misandrist...
I found an article recently when first posting this thread authored by a scientist who claims that misogyny doesn’t exist at all and can’t be scientifically proven. In other words, could misogyny be based on one’s perception? Personally, I believe misogyny and misandry are real behaviors that show contempt and prejudice of the opposite sex. But, probably difficult to “prove” in a controlled setting, for example, since different men and women might perceive things differently.
DaveC426913
Valued Senior Member
[ DUPE ]
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DaveC426913
Valued Senior Member
I read it. You can tell because I directly addressed what you said.
"...incredibly difficult to garner information that can be relied upon due to the sensitivity of the subject to the victim"
Again, do you think the concerned agencies say 'This is too sensitive, we cant or shouldn't apply our research acumen to it'? Do they have the same difficulty with rape, domestic abuse, child abuse, etc?
Not sure why you'd be interested in my thoughts on it. I simply expressed my disbelief.
about what?
did my subsequent post (#29) help clarify the confusion I caused you?
Couldn't have said it any better, and refreshing along with your OP that you do recognise that it applies to both sexes.
I see the whole affair as being taken too far in some instances by different people, as happens in many endeavours and particularly the extremes of politics both left and right.
DaveC426913
Valued Senior Member
OK. I see where you're going. The research may not be conclusive - but that's de rigueur of any discipline that deals mostly with psychology.
Still, I'm pretty confident there's a lot of evidence to be found. It's not like this is new.
In regards to my posting specifically that you and Bells were responding to:
The biggest problem I feel is that the testimonial evidence about early ( 2-10 yo) child hood memories are simply unable to be considered as evidence. To me this is why this problem is so intractable and virtually impossible to resolve by conventional means.
However this does not prevent plausible hypothesis and theory being developed to explore the possibility.
As for identifying a misogynist a way can be found by understanding the possible causation. hence my attempt at explaining in my earlier posts.
Asking "What is your favorite flower?" and gauging the response is one such method...based on the presumption that most healthy males have little emotional difficulty in answering the question.
Or another example: Asking what is their favorite love song?... etc these sorts of questions subtly placed in a conversation quickly identifies issues.
By understanding that the "perceived" feminine or softer aspects of their male personality may be loathed, the self hatred can be identified.
That any attempt at non-physical intimacy will most likely be rejected.
Deliberately hidden misogyny is a bit harder to detect... but over time it can be...
In general conversation it isn't hard to identify someone who has serious issues.
- Disparaging comments about women believing that they can say what they like while the women are out of ear shot...
- Lacking respect for privacy and relationship secrets, especially when the women are absent.. etc..
- Joining in rather than defending women, absent or not, against emotional violence.
- Disparaging bar room boys only banter with a preoccupation on body image, prostitution and internet entertainment.
- Seeking only to poison the future for the women involved.
... but again I can only refer to personal research and study, already respecting and appreciating the limitations of the scientific method approach to this issue.
It a huge and complex issue ...but one worth discussing...IMO
and I thank wegs for the opportunity
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Agreed, I believe she has posted and worded this fairly without bias.
Bells
Staff member
I believe the terms are self explanatory.
Then perhaps you should refrain from making such comments without the ability to back them up.
Given that the word "misogyny" has its origins in ancient Greece, it would behoove you to do even a little bit of research before making a claim that the subject matter itself is in its infancy.
There are countless of studies/research/papers on the origins of misogyny, historically and during the modern era.
For example, before going into exceptionally detailed theories of how a child could be sexually abused by his father as being somehow or other the "root cause" of misogyny, had you for one moment considered that misogyny is everywhere, usually subtle, and sometimes blatant? That historically, misogyny was the current state of affairs? For example, in ancient religious text, misogyny was rampant. From the story of Lilith to Eve, to religious writings that saw women being deemed inferior, to be beaten and controlled or even murdered for their supposed crimes, to the witch trials and so on and so forth.. Misogyny was rampant.
Even childhood fairytales were rife with misogyny - with evil stepmothers, and the pure girls and princesses who seek to marry the prince to save them from evil stepmothers..
Children are taught that girls and women are weaker, inferior, less than their male counterparts. This carries through into adulthood, where women are often paid less, recognised less and have a harder time being promoted because of their sex.
And it has nothing to do with the father of these men forcing their children to watch their mothers being raped (seriously, how do you come up with this stuff?) and everything to do with a patriarchal society, historically and presently, viewing women as being less than.
The root of misogyny is sexism and patriarchy.
Which is something I have noticed you immediately jump to when you are asked to support your claims..
Nonsense.
Child abuse and its effects are widely studied. One quick search in Google Scholar: https://scholar.google.com.au/scholar?start=0&q=effects+of+child+abuse&hl=en&as_sdt=0,5&as_vis=1
You keep bringing pedophilia into this subject and I don't exactly know why you are trying to change the subject in this way.
Secondly, a child may rationalise violence against women, for example, or rationalise blaming women for being victims, because of the abuse they suffered or witness in the home while growing up. But you were descriptive in regards to the abuse the child would witness or suffer - ie - you delved into pedophilia and child sexual abuse by the father... Which is a completely different subject and kettle of fish altogether.
Ergo, your determination that this is the root cause of misogyny resting in the sexual abuse of children has to be supported. So I would suggest you refrain from making such claims in this thread without the ability to back it up. If you cannot be bothered to back up your claims, then frankly, do not make claims.
Why?
You are talking about child sexual abuse and pedophilia and attempting to link it to misogyny and misandry..
This isn't a blog. Even a hypothesis has to have some basis in fact and be supported. You are not about to launch into a study. You are literally making things up and trying to link things without any basis or foundation in fact and then suggesting that the study of child sexual abuse and misogyny is in its infancy..
Did you consider that the question you asked him was in itself sexist and stereotypical?
You linked what his favourite flower is to addressing his femininity or feminine side.. The whole 'girls like flowers' stereotype escaped you?
Again, sexist and stereotypical.
And it is also sexist and applying sexist stereotypes that have existed throughout history and have been used to lessen the voices of women, because we are the 'softer sex' and what other sexist claptrap people utter.
You should include feminine and flowers and love songs to that list.