Dutchman to make film criticising Quran

S.A.M. said:
Does that go only one way?
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Surely not, but just as you wouldn't expect a conservative muslim culture to cowtow to western influence (cf schoolteacher who could be jailed for naming a teddy bear Muhammed), why is it reasonable to expect a Western culture to change so that some people (who are there of their own free will) feel more comfortable?

What would you think, for example, of a film on battered women, which was made in a similar way? ie a "battered" woman having a monologue, most of which focused on her nudity while she lounged around in a see through garment? And never addressed the battering?

or a child abuse victim, with a movie containing a semi-nude child in a similar fashion?
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Does it matter?

Are there any boundaries to free speech at all?
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Should we place artificial boundaries on our expression just because of a percieved threat to some set of values with which we don't identify?
 
S.A.M. said:
I see the Dutch government twiddling thumbs while selectively defining free speech, even when it is a member of the government targeting a significant minority of the population, one that is already subject to discrimination. That does not require me to visit the Netherlands.
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Maybe you should study the Dutch government a bit more then..
 
BenTheMan said:
I'm sure that it would be quite a shock for a muslim to see so many mores broken at once, but it IS another country, and in some senses, another world. Should one expect that such things are constant across cultures? Should Europeans change their cultures to make the immigrants more comfortable?

And if they are so uncomfortable with such things, why are they applying for immigration in the first place?
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Right !
They are welcome, but they have to adapt or at least shut up.
 
I really think Europe isn't that racist, from what I hear Americans are on the whole more racist than Europeans.-
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You're German right? Not that it matters :)

This is, of COURSE, your default position, as it is of ALL Europeans. But it is certainly not an opinion held by foreigners who I have known, who have spent a significant amount of time in Europe.
 
BenTheMan said:
Surely not, but just as you wouldn't expect a conservative muslim culture to cowtow to western influence (cf schoolteacher who could be jailed for naming a teddy bear Muhammed), why is it reasonable to expect a Western culture to change so that some people (who are there of their own free will) feel more comfortable?
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Is this the same people who are in Iraq liberating the masses?

Does it matter?
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I'd like an opinion. Would you consider it freedom of expression?


Should we place artificial boundaries on our expression just because of a percieved threat to some set of values with which we don't identify?
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And this somehow translates into insulting those with different values?
 
BenTheMan said:
You're German right? Not that it matters :)

This is, of COURSE, your default position, as it is of ALL Europeans. But it is certainly not an opinion held by foreigners who I have known, who have spent a significant amount of time in Europe.
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I'm not German. I'm Dutch.
I really have barely seen any racism in my live :shrug:
 
Enmos said:
I'm not German. I'm Dutch.
I really have barely seen any racism in my live :shrug:
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Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it exists. It's like sexual harassment---you have to ask a woman if sexual harassment is a real thing, you have to ask a minority if rascism exists.
 
Enmos said:
Well apparently you want us to change so that the immigrants feel comfy.. :bugeye:
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And you believe this is how Muslims should be treated

The report describes problems such as widespread negative attitudes toward Muslims; unbalanced and stereotypical media reports portraying Muslims as �alien� to EU societies and as �an enemy within�; verbal and physical attacks on Muslims and Muslim institutions and property; discrimination against Muslims in employment and other areas; aggressive political rhetoric used by right-populist parties to target Muslims; and security and immigration measures contributing to public perceptions of Muslims as a �fifth column.� It also addresses controversies related to the use of the headscarf in schools and other public places; private Muslim schools; the opening of mosques; the role of imams; and the practice of ritual slaughter.

The report documents that right-populist parties such as the Italian Northern League, the Belgian Vlaams Blok and the Austrian Freedom Party have used strikingly similar rhetoric depicting Muslim immigration as a threat to the security and values of European countries. It reveals that the debate surrounding the adoption in 2004 of the French law prohibiting religious attire in public schools helped encourage intolerance and discrimination against Muslim women who wear the headscarf, with subsequent reports of Muslim women being prevented from marrying, voting and taking university exams dressed in the headscarf. It also describes how British media have created the impression that the country�s criminal justice system is successfully prosecuting �Muslim terrorists,� while in reality only three out of hundreds of Muslims arrested under terrorist legislation are known to have been convicted of terrorist crimes and a vast majority of those arrested have been released without charge.
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BenTheMan said:
Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it exists. It's like sexual harassment---you have to ask a woman if sexual harassment is a real thing, you have to ask a minority if rascism exists.
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I am aware of that and I know things got worse the last couple of years. But, as you may well know, The Netherlands has always been known for it's tolerance. 9/11 changed everything, ofcourse the HUGE number of immigrants has something to do with it.
 
S.A.M. said:
Is this the same people who are in Iraq liberating the masses?
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Objectively, sure. If you acknowledge the one you are forced to accept the other.

I'd like an opinion. Would you consider it freedom of expression?
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I don't really have an opinion. I wouldn't take to the streets to protest the movie, or light cars on fire... I probably just wouldn't go to the movies that week.

And this somehow translates into insulting those with different values?
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Again, these things work both ways. The very freedom of speech that allows a radical muslim cleric to sit in his mosque and preach about how Western infidels are cursed and should be destroyed also gives the infidels the right to draw funny cartoons and name teddy bears.
 
Enmos said:
I am aware of that and I know things got worse the last couple of years. But, as you may well know, The Netherlands has always been known for it's tolerance. 9/11 changed everything, ofcourse the HUGE number of immigrants has something to do with it.
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The issue is exactly that the HUGE number of immigrants are being treated as a subclass of citizens. You need only to smell the smoke from Paris to realize this...
 
BenTheMan said:
Objectively, sure. If you acknowledge the one you are forced to accept the other.
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You equate invading a country with protesting discrimination?

I don't really have an opinion. I wouldn't take to the streets to protest the movie, or light cars on fire... I probably just wouldn't go to the movies that week.
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Thats one movie. What if it was a social movement? If it affected your safety, security, employment? If it led to discrimination and abuse?


Again, these things work both ways. The very freedom of speech that allows a radical muslim cleric to sit in his mosque and preach about how Western infidels are cursed and should be destroyed also gives the infidels the right to draw funny cartoons and name teddy bears.
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Why give radical clerics that platform? Why permit hate speech? And if you do permit it, why have laws against one kind and not the other?
 
Yeah I always find it incredibly hilarious when people who live in a country that wiped out the natives talk about problems with immigrant culture.
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If you would pass the sins of the father on to the son, then we're all guilty. You included.

Only the Australian and American aborigines moved into lands devoid of prior human habitation.
Yet, even they devastated the fauna.

So, try again. Your precious land is not sinless, dear heart.
 
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