Then keep those people out of your countries and stay out of theirs.
Dutchman to make film criticising Quran
- Thread starter S.A.M.
- Start date
Then keep those people out of your countries and stay out of theirs.
Its not the first time and he is not the only one.
e.g. What if if Van Gogh was an anti-Semite who made a film criticizing Jewish Hasidic treatment of women, and constantly wrote columns calling for the expulsions of Jews from Holland, referring to them as Goatfuckers?
Would it be acceptable?
I hear so much about how he was killed for a film, but what was the point of making a fictional movie about a semi naked woman with Quranic verses engraved on her skin?
Did it justify his murder or the bombing of the Muslim school in reaction?
Sounds like a plan.
Yeah I always find it incredibly hilarious when people who live in a country that wiped out the natives talk about problems with immigrant culture.
As for the Dutch, they have done nothing to integrate the people, but bemoan the cultural differences. From what I have read, a significant chunk of them don't want the immigrants, they've just taken in 900,000 people in 15 years without attempting to assimilate them. Now they think antagonism and condescension disguised as freedom of speech will aid integration.
That's a bit like throwing the baby out with the bathwater, no?
I think the tension is mainly between people who don't want to adapt to a liberal western European society and people who don't want their culture changed by a large flux of people with a different set of values. (I spent a lot of time writing that scentence only to realize that it's completely obvious!)
There are, surely, some muslims who do well in Western Europe?
I'm sure they don't want the immigrants because they're not assimilated. And, who's job IS assimilation?
There are similar problems in France. I heard an article on BBC about how Spaniards are pissed that English people move to spain and don't assimilate.
The vast majority, not that this point is ever considered relevant while making films as the above.
Assimilation cannot occur with antagonism or cultural condescension.
Yes.But I think such films are probably a natural consequence.
I had an Italian room mate this summer when I attended a summer school. He said that he was genuinely worried about Europe because of the attitude of Europeans towards immigrants---he said in places like Holland, there is a push to scapegoat (LEGAL!) immigrants for the problems that their society is facing. One can gather as much from listening to conservative European politicians on BBC.
I met an Indian fellow about a year ago, and I went to dinner with him and my (good) German friend. The Indian guy said that he loved America because, as an immigrant, he felt much more welcomed here than he EVER did in Europe. And another Bengali friend of mine told me that he never experienced rascism like when he was in France. (Mind you, he was living in Waco, Texas at the time!)
I only have a limited experience here, but in several completely different cases, I have always heard the same things about Europeans and non-Europeans.
But I think such films are probably a natural consequence.
I have never been to Europe, but the Europeans I have met have been fine. I did experience racism in the US (first time in my life) which was a shock since one does not generally figure Americans for being overtly racist.
Now I assume its not unusual and would not be surprised to find Europe more racist than the US.
What I do not comprehend is why this kind of behaviour is encouraged by governments. Does inciting violence and intolerance translate to free speech?
e.g. The movie for which Theo van Gogh was murdered which purportedly addresses abuse in Muslim women. All it has is a women wearing a sheer garment through which you can see her nudity and some verses of the Quran engraved on her body. Some sexual intercourse is intimated, again there are semi naked people with verses on their body. Mostly its a boring monologue of a woman with God, only the woman's body and nudity is a greater matter of focus. For immigrants who come from conservative cultures, how does showing a semi nude woman (representing their women) with religious verses on her breasts and abdomen define abuse? Or even address the issue?
I'm sure that it would be quite a shock for a muslim to see so many mores broken at once, but it IS another country, and in some senses, another world. Should one expect that such things are constant across cultures? Should Europeans change their cultures to make the immigrants more comfortable?
And if they are so uncomfortable with such things, why are they applying for immigration in the first place?
Does that go only one way?
What would you think, for example, of a film on battered women, which was made in a similar way? ie a "battered" woman having a monologue, most of which focused on her nudity while she lounged around in a see through garment? And never addressed the battering?
or a child abuse victim, with a movie containing a semi-nude child in a similar fashion?
Are there any boundaries to free speech at all?
Enmos
Valued Senior Member
It's not the first time. You mean Pim Fortuyn I assume ?
It is a fact that 'foreign' people cause problems in the Netherlands.
Because of 9/11 more people are now more critical of Muslims. And frankly I can understand that (I'm not saying it's right). It is because of this that people like Wilders and Fortuyn stand a chance.
Van Gogh was not anti-Muslim to begin with, he was just a critical filmmaker.
So yeah, if van Gogh was making critical movies about Jewish people that would have been receive the same way. Saying this I must add that van Gogh was criticized by people, not all.
And ? Do you think it justifies killing him ? Freedom of speech S.A.M.
No to both questions.
Enmos
Valued Senior Member
You really have a strong opinion about the Dutch without even having been there S.A.M.
It doesn't suit you well..
Enmos
Valued Senior Member
There are, lot's of them. And you are right, lots of foreign people do not want to adapt.
I don't see how constantly calling all Arabs as goatfuckers constitutes critical thinking.
I see the Dutch government twiddling thumbs while selectively defining free speech, even when it is a member of the government targeting a significant minority of the population, one that is already subject to discrimination. That does not require me to visit the Netherlands.
Enmos
Valued Senior Member
I really think Europe isn't that racist, from what I hear Americans are on the whole more racist than Europeans.
And S.A.M., that kind of behavior is not encouraged by the government at all. I don't think you have a very good understanding of how our government works.
Enmos
Valued Senior Member
He can just as well call Jews goatfuckers, or the prime minister. It won't make any difference.