Aplogise for slavery?

[Pandaemoni]

I don't really "get" the "I won't apologize" thing. Apologies are inexpensive niceties, not admissions of personal guilt. When someone tells you that their mother just died, the typical response is to say, "Oh, I'm so sorry." When you say that, it doesn't imply that you were somehow complicit in the death of their mother. Under the logic of those who steadfastly maintain that apologies for slavery are a bad idea, I assume they utterly refuse such niceties when another's relative passes away.

Besides that, America did have some minor complicity in slavery,as did the states, as did many organizations that still exist in America (like, the older universities and several corporations that have survived through mergers). As citizens, members, faculty, student, shareholders or whatever the level of "graciousness" owed only increases.

If, when I attended school, my university president had said "U.S. troops are terrorists," I can imagine that would upset many people (even many people who are not in the service and who have no family in the service). I would have no problem, not even as an alumnus, in saying "I'm sorry for what happened. I certainly don't agree with him and apologize that he upset you." That would certainly be a better response than, "I'm not apologizing for anything! If you don't like that, you should resign from the military! And if you're not in the military yourself, STFU." Apologies are a matter of simple human sympathy.

Reparations are another matter (some of the States, in particular, might certainly have theoretically owed reparations to someone at some point in time, just out of fairness). In that case it's too impractical to seriously consider, and too costly to administer.

 

[superstring01]

I never owned a slave, what's more, there are no slaves left. No culprits to apologize and no victims to apologize to. The best we can do is learn the lessons of the past, tell our children how horrible THOSE people's actions were, and do our best to instill them with a sense of morality that will ensure a better future.

Apologies do none of that, and only perpetuate the myth that white people are still oppressing the poor black man. Besides, my family was living in France, England and Germany at that time. The most I have to apologize for is the concquests of Bismark and the Napoleanic Wars. Good... I can just apologize to myself.

Dan... I'm sorry. Thank you Dan... I forgive you and all your ancestors. Dan, I too apologize for what my ancestors did.

Also, if this is the case, I want some sort of apology from those pesky Italians to slaughtered thousands of my proud Gaulish ancestors in France... and who slaughtered many, many of my Germanic ancestors.... though, they had their day when they sacked Rome. So, I guess we're even.

~String

 

[S.A.M.]

Are current Americans still benefiting from slavery in any way?

 

[Sock puppet path]

Are current Americans still benefiting from slavery in any way?

Ask the same of every culture who has benefited from slavery.

 

[2inquisitive]

Are current Americans still benefiting from slavery in any way?

The only current slaves we have are slaves to narcotics. They are of all races, and they are not benefiting in any way. Neither is anyone else, except those active in the drug trade (the slave masters).

 

[Pandaemoni]

Are current Americans still benefiting from slavery in any way?

In *any* way? Absolutely yes, to varying degrees of indirectness. The economic thievery that was endemic in the system of slavery tilted the fortunes of many families, businesses, institutions and state and local governments in the U.S., that wealth wasn't buried with the slave-owning generation. Almost all of it as handed off to somebody, in many cases to heirs of the people who initially "earned" it. Yale University made a lot of money off of the slave trade, and they invested that money. Some portion of their $7.2 billion endowment is based on money they earned directly or indirectly on those proceeds and the interest/returns they earned subsequently).

In the same way, some of the descendants of slaves are worse off than they would have been had their ancestors not been slaves and had an equal opportunity. Some of the wealth some of those slaves would have earned would have been passed down to descendants.

The hard part is showing who's doing the benefiting because the money is fungible and accounting is an art, not a science (and it's impossible to show which descendants of slaves have been economically harmed and by ho much in all but the most unlikely of scenarios).

Similarly, many modern corporations existed back then and made a good bit of money off the slave trade (although most have changed their names and/or merged several times since then...legally speaking these businesses are the same legal entity and so, in theory—ignoring statutes of limitations and laches that may apply, which they probably do—can be found responsible for actions undertaken by the company even in the 19th century). They include tobacco companies (of course), several freight railroads (Norfolk Southern, CSX and Union Pacific, for example), JPMorgan Chase, Lehman Brothers, Aetna, AIG, Lloyd's of London, FleetBoston, etc.

These are cases of "unjust enrichment" legally speaking, and it doesn't matter whether the recipient of the ill-gotten money did anything "wrong" or is liable for having committed a tort themselves. No one will ever bring a successful lawsuit against them, but not because some of these companies didn't benefit to some extent, just because "by how much" and "who was harmed" is next to impossible to nail down with any precision.

 

[TimeTraveler]

I do agree that Humans tend to be tribal. But Democratic voters are more inclined to vote for Black politicians. How many Black Republican Congressman have you seen compared to Black Democratic Congressman?

****CRICKETS****

That's because the Democratic party is more popular among minorities in general. On the Presidential level however, there is a group of white males who will only ever vote for other white males.

 

[TimeTraveler]

.

Bells
The people who actually suffered the injustices and the horrors are dead and gone.

It's not that simple. The people who suffered through segregation are still around today. Segregration ended in the early 1980s.

It's not that all reparations are a bad idea. Just reparations for slavery in my opinion is stupid.

Now, reparations for segregation, or for building ghettos, this is something completely different.

I don't think there will ever be reparations for the creation of ghettos, and of poverty, or for any of that. I think if there were ever an apology it would be meaningless words.

So in general, don't expect reparations from people who don't care. You know as well as I do, that this country does not care about the poor, or the homeless, and certainly does not care about people suffering in ghettos. That's just being real.

So there will never be any reparations, the will just isnt there. There will always be an underclass living in the ghetto suffering, and the ghetto and the size of that underclass will increase as population increases. The only option you have as an individual is to make sure you aren't in the ghetto/underclass yourself.

If you are poor, and in a ghetto, instead of asking the "government" for help, or asking "white" America for an apology, work on helping to improve the economy for small businesses, promote tax cuts for small businesses, and support the city, state or federal government in helping people who live in ghettos start businesses. The only way out of poverty, is through economic liberty. The free market is the only way out.

You basically have to figure out how you can profit off other people to survive. That's the cold hard reality of the economy. The best way to do it is honestly, but it's situational, you'll do whatever you have to, to survive. You'll do whatever it takes to get out of poverty.

This might mean going to school and getting degrees while financial aid still exists. This may mean starting a small business. This may mean owning property. Whatever it is that you decide to do, just make sure it's in your best interest, and that it will enhance your ability to survive.

There will always be people who are suffering, and the best you can do to help people who suffer in poverty is hire them, so they can pay for an education.

If you don't want to hire them, you can help them get a loan to start a business, or give them a good recommendation, or start up an investing company to invest specifically in corporations founded by people who are coming from ghettos and living in poverty. Investment capital is what is crucial to getting out of poverty, and instead of giving checks for reparations which I think is stupid as hell,
there should be an urban investment fund started, worth many billions if you are a Democrat, or if you are a Republican, then all urban startups should be free from all taxes for the first 5 years.

If we removed taxes for small businesses started in urban areas, or if we set up an investment fund, either or both of these two policies would be better than reparations for slavery, and I'd prefer to see both of these policies. If a person in a ghetto, who worked hard enough to get a degree, wants to start a business, they should have access to capital to start it, and if they are from a poor neighborhood and can prove it, regardless of race, they should recieve federal aid to start a business just like there is federal aid to get a college degree. I'm saying the fed should invest in small businesses in locations known to be amongst the poorest.

I'm also saying that these businesses should be tax free for 5 years. Most businesses require 5 years before they can turn a profit, if a business is allowed to be tax free for 5 years, this goes a long way to helping that business become a success. The final way to help small businesses would be to provide universal healthcare. I know this is not popular among Republicans or conservatives so the say to properly do it would simply be tax credits. The government can simply give lower taxes for businesses which provide healthcare, and that would help solve that problem.

Basically, I think the solution to poverty in urban ghettos or any ghetto, is community building, and I think the community can only be built when the business community is built, and the business community can only be built when you support small businesses. So support small urban businesses.

 

[TimeTraveler]

In *any* way? Absolutely yes, to varying degrees of indirectness. The economic thievery that was endemic in the system of slavery tilted the fortunes of many families, businesses, institutions and state and local governments in the U.S., that wealth wasn't buried with the slave-owning generation. Almost all of it as handed off to somebody, in many cases to heirs of the people who initially "earned" it. Yale University made a lot of money off of the slave trade, and they invested that money. Some portion of their $7.2 billion endowment is based on money they earned directly or indirectly on those proceeds and the interest/returns they earned subsequently).

In the same way, some of the descendants of slaves are worse off than they would have been had their ancestors not been slaves and had an equal opportunity. Some of the wealth some of those slaves would have earned would have been passed down to descendants.

The hard part is showing who's doing the benefiting because the money is fungible and accounting is an art, not a science (and it's impossible to show which descendants of slaves have been economically harmed and by ho much in all but the most unlikely of scenarios).

Similarly, many modern corporations existed back then and made a good bit of money off the slave trade (although most have changed their names and/or merged several times since then...legally speaking these businesses are the same legal entity and so, in theory—ignoring statutes of limitations and laches that may apply, which they probably do—can be found responsible for actions undertaken by the company even in the 19th century). They include tobacco companies (of course), several freight railroads (Norfolk Southern, CSX and Union Pacific, for example), JPMorgan Chase, Lehman Brothers, Aetna, AIG, Lloyd's of London, FleetBoston, etc.

These are cases of "unjust enrichment" legally speaking, and it doesn't matter whether the recipient of the ill-gotten money did anything "wrong" or is liable for having committed a tort themselves. No one will ever bring a successful lawsuit against them, but not because some of these companies didn't benefit to some extent, just because "by how much" and "who was harmed" is next to impossible to nail down with any precision.

Don't be so emotional. How can people profit today?

Everyone profits off the labor of others, fair or unfair. But how can we make today better than yesterday was?

 

[Pandaemoni]

Don't be so emotional. How can people profit today?

Everyone profits off the labor of others, fair or unfair. But how can we make today better than yesterday was?

I'm not sure what emotion you see in my post. It is a cold hard fact that certain people, living today, are better off (i.e. wealthier) than they would have been but for slavery. It is also a cold hard fact that many Americans are better off today than they would have been had Caucasians not stolen land from the American Indians.

Wealth created in the past ripples forward in time and has economic consequences on subsequent generations. That's not emotion, that's just the way cash flows work. As I said, figuring our "who has benefited" and "by how much" is next to impossible—it's like trying to count the number of eggs used eggs after you have already baked the cake. That you can no longer count the eggs doesn't mean that the cake is egg-free.

While it is true that everyone profits from the labor of others, those arrangements are usually voluntary. When I volunteer to work for you, I implicitly give you permission to profit from that work. When you force me to work for you on pain of torture, you lose the moral (and, these days,legal) right to profit from that work. The German government, for example, was forced to pay reparations to Jewish slave labor used during WWII, and I doubt anyone would suggest that that was "wrong" because "hey, everyone profits off the labor of others." Slave labor changes that picture.

I suspect your real point is that we should just move on because the people living today are not the people ho directly suffered under the American slave system, not that "profiting off of the [slave] labor of others" is perfectly fine. That's a fair enough point, and I agree with it, but it doesn't entirely justify pretending that no one living today receives "benefits" that they would not have gotten but for slavery. Nor does it justify pretending that no one is worse off but for slavery in the past. Pretending is bad. Better to look the facts squarely in the face, place them in their proper context and deal with them, than to ignore them.

If you ignore the truth, you simply annoy the people who do think reparations are a good idea, and you give the impression that an anti-reparations position is indefensible on the facts.

 

[Ganymede]

I never owned a slave, what's more, there are no slaves left. No culprits to apologize and no victims to apologize to. The best we can do is learn the lessons of the past, tell our children how horrible THOSE people's actions were, and do our best to instill them with a sense of morality that will ensure a better future.

Apologies do none of that, and only perpetuate the myth that white people are still oppressing the poor black man. Besides, my family was living in France, England and Germany at that time. The most I have to apologize for is the concquests of Bismark and the Napoleanic Wars. Good... I can just apologize to myself.

Dan... I'm sorry. Thank you Dan... I forgive you and all your ancestors. Dan, I too apologize for what my ancestors did.

Also, if this is the case, I want some sort of apology from those pesky Italians to slaughtered thousands of my proud Gaulish ancestors in France... and who slaughtered many, many of my Germanic ancestors.... though, they had their day when they sacked Rome. So, I guess we're even.

~String

String, you're not being historicially accurate. The legacy of Slavery carried on for decades after slavery. Blacks didn't get voting rights until the 60's! Blacks were treated as second class citizens in this country not even 40 years ago. And you have the audacity to Bring Rome into the argument. A civilization that existed Centuries ago? WTF, this is the intellectual dishonesty Blacks are talking about. Give a real fucking reason why you won't apologize. Plain and simple, racism!

 

[Baron Max]

Give a real fucking reason why you won't apologize.

Interesting comment. But do you apologize for things that you had nothing to do with? Is that normal behavior for you? Or is it just a black thing?

Baron Max

 

[Ganymede]

I never owned a slave, what's more, there are no slaves left. No culprits to apologize and no victims to apologize to. The best we can do is learn the lessons of the past, tell our children how horrible THOSE people's actions were, and do our best to instill them with a sense of morality that will ensure a better future.

Apologies do none of that, and only perpetuate the myth that white people are still oppressing the poor black man. Besides, my family was living in France, England and Germany at that time. The most I have to apologize for is the concquests of Bismark and the Napoleanic Wars. Good... I can just apologize to myself.

Dan... I'm sorry. Thank you Dan... I forgive you and all your ancestors. Dan, I too apologize for what my ancestors did.

Also, if this is the case, I want some sort of apology from those pesky Italians to slaughtered thousands of my proud Gaulish ancestors in France... and who slaughtered many, many of my Germanic ancestors.... though, they had their day when they sacked Rome. So, I guess we're even.

~String

Stringer, please answer these questions. You won't because you're to chicken shit. And by answering these you'll clearly illustrate why Blacks demand a apology.

Alex, answer these questions for me, and you'll know why some Blacks demand an apology.

1) When the Slaves were freed what rights did they have?


2) How many years after they were freed did they earn the right to vote?


3) How many years after they were freed did they have the right to eat next to a white person?


4) How many years after they were freed could a Black Person marry a White Person without breaking the law?

I'm waiting...

 

[Baron Max]

Stringer, please answer these questions. You won't because you're to chicken shit. And by answering these you'll clearly illustrate why Blacks demand a apology.[b/]

Alex, answer these questions for me, and you'll know why some Blacks demand an apology.

1) When the Slaves were freed what rights did they have?


2) How many years after they were freed did they earn the right to vote?


3) How many years after they were freed did they have the right to eat next to a white person?


4) How many years after they were freed could a Black Person marry a White Person without breaking the law?

I'm waiting...

You're waiting?? As if it makes any fuckin' differnce to anything!

The only thing you're doin' here is keeping racism alive longer. Is that what you want? Hmm, now that I think about it, perhaps blacks are better with racism, because it's easier to get all the free government handouts!!!

Baron Max

 

[Ganymede]

Baron you're on my ignore list. Without even seeing your post. I already know what you're going to say. Nothing intelligent.

 

[Baron Max]

Baron you're on my ignore list. Without even seeing your post. I already know what you're going to say. Nothing intelligent.

Yeah, that's always easier than to confront something that you might not like or know how to answer. Little kids sometimes do the same by holding their ears and yelling loudly so they can't hear what people are saying. Good tactic, huh? ...LOL!

Baron Max

 

[Buffalo Roam]

TimeTraveler
Now, reparations for segregation, or for building ghettos, this is something completely different.

Now that is a brilliant peace of advise? The blacks on campus are segregating themselve, in fact they are demanding to be segragated,

http://www2.wwnorton.com/college/history/archive/resources/documents/ch37_02.htm

Those with grievance identities also demand extra entitlements far beyond what should come to us as citizens. As a black, I am said to "deserve" this or that special entitlement. No longer is it enough just to have the right to attend a college or university on an equal basis with others or to be treated like anyone else. Schools must set aside special money and special academic departments just for me, based on my grievance. Some campuses now have segregated dorms for blacks students who demand to live together with people of their "own kind." Students have lobbied for separate black student unions, black yearbooks, black Homecomings dances, black graduation ceremonies—again, all so that they can be comfortable with their "own kind." One representative study at the University of Michigan indicates that 70 percent of the school's black undergraduates have never had a white acquaintance. Yet, across the country, colleges and universities like Michigan readily and even eagerly continue to encourage more segregation by granting the demands of every vocal grievance identity.

 

[EmptyForceOfChi]

my wife said a little while ago, when i asked her the Q.

"why would i want a sorry from some random white person. i was not a slave. you cant say sorry for what somebody else did. so if a group of black people shoot somebody, am i supposed to say sorry for them because i am black?, and werent white people slaves aswell?"

so theres a view from a black person who does not want a sorry.

peace.

 

[Baron Max]

my wife said a little while ago, when i asked her the Q.

"why would i want a sorry from some random white person. i was not a slave. you cant say sorry for what somebody else did. so if a group of black people shoot somebody, am i supposed to say sorry for them because i am black?, and werent white people slaves aswell?"

so theres a view from a black person who does not want a sorry.

Ask her if she'd rather be with a bunch of nice white people, or a bunch of nice black people? See what she says to that.

Baron Max

 

[Ganymede]

Now that is a brilliant peace of advise? The blacks on campus are segregating themselve, in fact they are demanding to be segragated,

http://www2.wwnorton.com/college/history/archive/resources/documents/ch37_02.htm

That's why I'm glad I moved from the East Coast. Both Blacks and Whites are racist as fuck down South & Back East. In the Bay Area everyone hangs out with everyone. You still have your clicks, but they're not White or Black only Clicks.