ALMA sees old galaxies before they merged. two ways to look back into the past?

[river]

And you are entitled to be corrected and shortcomings in whatever proposal that you have submitted. The problem is that while you are in the alternative sections, some still put their alternative scenarios as fact.
I have my own speculative scenarios of the how and why of the BB, but I will always put it as just speculative...not pretend as some do that they are somehow privileged to some underlying truth, that mainstream science is not....particularly of course on a science forum, open to any Tom, Dick, or Harry...or river for that matter.
Yes, according to the most accepted and likely valid model of the universe, the evolution of space and time [as we know them] did not occur in anything...It was everything.
Perhaps, a big perhaps, one day a verifiable QGT may shed some light on the nature of space and time before 10-43 seconds, and may tell us the how and the why.....until then, all we have is speculative scenarios.

pad , it is the theory , the thinking that matters . Not the name .

Look into the theory , with an open mind .

How do think your " past giants of thinking " thought what they did , because they thought with an open mind .

Those who went before were surpassed by those in the now , at the time and at the present .

Thinking evolves , it isn't frozen in the history of thought . You know this to be true pad .

 

[nebel]

What does " Time Horizon "mean Nebel ?

river, I will take you back to page # 28, with this basic image of the 4 "horizons" made by the radius on a sphere.

the total horizon is more like this : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_sector,
anything that emitted radiation within the volume of that cone (actually the radius of 13.8 billion years from #5, even to the apex #4, more then the straight sided cone. ) would be within the time horizon. A particle without movement would move and emit to a point close to us now. one moving at the speed of light be seem to be coming from the perimeter along the membrane #3. at the intersection with line #9. so,
It is only one universe, having gone in all directions since the beginning. In this model, the All has >4 locally separated time horizons. to see it all. but,
If space expanded faster than "c" imagine the white areas in the photo to be even bigger, because then it would be space horizons based on the inflation theory. and
Yes this result of the model is presented as fact, it is open to question, but here it is, as defined.

 

[nebel]

Matter came a short time later,

how about Dark Matter then?

Here is an item that would require time to exist before the Big Bang:
Johns Hopkins University. "Dark matter may be older than the Big Bang." ScienceDaily. ScienceDaily, 7 August 2019. <www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/08/190807190816.htm>.
Now, -- matter, even if "dark" is just another form of energy. so: if it existed before the Big Beginning it hang in 'timespace', and coexist with energy in 'energytime'.
thinking the unthinkable. the pre-beginning scenario, unlimited.

 

[paddoboy]

how about Dark Matter then?

Here is an item that would require time to exist before the Big Bang:
Johns Hopkins University. "Dark matter may be older than the Big Bang." ScienceDaily. ScienceDaily, 7 August 2019. <www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/08/190807190816.htm>.
.

Yeah I know about Inflation, and it helps explain a couple of shortcomings of the BB, but as yet, as far as I know, we have no direct evidence for it. And in most scenarios it occurs about 10-35 seconds after the BB. Perhaps your article is referring to another hypothetical version called is "eternal Inflation"

 

[nebel]

Yeah I know about Inflation, and it helps explain a couple of shortcomings of the BB,

Paddo, It is not my article but from John Hopkins University. No, it is not about the BB and the ensuing inflation, it is about Dark Matter before the BB, and by extension the time that had to be available for the pre BB DM to exist in.

 

[paddoboy]

Paddo, It is not my article but from John Hopkins University. No, it is not about the BB and the ensuing inflation, it is about Dark Matter before the BB, and by extension the time that had to be available for the pre BB DM to exist in.

Like I said eternal Inflation?
And anyway, it is nothing more then a speculative scenario of which we probably can never be sure of.

 

[nebel]

eternal Inflation?

Here is a snippet from Wiki, "eternal inflation":
"Although inflation is generically eternal into the future, it is not eternal into the past." Guth detailed what was known about the subject at the time, --"
Eternal inflation would therefore imply eternal future time.
In the expanding through time membrane model, time is considered eternal also into the past, prior to our Big Beginning, because the energy it took for the universe to exist with it's time it has to have is uncreated.
The Pad we live in Paddo, is expanding and floating in a big unlimited sea of time.
Whether the expansion of our universe in space & size is inflationary, eternally? -- work for the experts. but
The expansion into the future, into time#1 is happening apace.

 

[nebel]

Probing the Universe's Dark Energy.

story on BBC, " it is embarrassing to live in a universe of which 95% we do not understand."
The allegation on this threads's model "Bubble expanding into time" is, that
infinite time as a first dimension is home to infinitely old uncreated energy, and it is absorbed as the universe expands into the future.

 

[nebel]

infinitely old uncreated energy, and it is absorbed as the universe expands into the future.

This ur-energy existed in timespace before the Big Bang, and is still stretching to infinity and it appears everywhere , possibly as the "dark energy" as every local in the universe moves into the future and now encompasses more volume in "timespace"

 

[nebel]

here is a nice image that would picture the model of a universe expanding into timespace from a central point beginning. From the New Scientist Article,
--the universe is round or flat!

Journal reference: Nature Astronomy, DOI: 10.1038/s41550-019-0906-9
but you could never come back to the same place, because it does not exist any more, the universe has passed through it for good.

 

[Write4U]

here is a nice image that would picture the model of a universe expanding into timespace from a central point beginning. From the New Scientist Article,
--the universe is round or flat!

Journal reference: Nature Astronomy, DOI: 10.1038/s41550-019-0906-9
but you could never come back to the same place, because it does not exist any more, the universe has passed through it for good.

And the whole moves forward in time in all global directions, this is the expansion phenomenon. The whole moves forward in time in all directions through a single one-way timegate. The gate closes after the whole has passed and becomes inaccessible from a later spacetime coordinates.
Determinism forbids the time travel, IMO. The universe would have to contract to a prior state in order to account for spacetime expansion into the future. Consider the implications.

 

[nebel]

The gate closes after the whole has passed and becomes inaccessible from a later spacetime coordinates.

wfy,
the expanding curved membrane of the present leaves nothing behind in the past. even if the universe were , in a pull-sating mode (freudian slip welcome) to a new, different point in timespace, it would not have to have a backward re-run of past events. they are gone.

The universe would have to contract to a prior state

[/B]
wfy,
no, prior size yes. prior state no. but
perhaps giving up dark energy it absorbed during it's expansion into energytime.

 

[nebel]

"Most cosmologists think dark energy is spread out across the universe with equal density ---
That would mean more of it is created to fill new space … " bold added.

Read more: https://www.newscientist.com/articl...-force-that-rules-the-universe/#ixzz68Zu8VPWi

The model of the Universe as a sphere expanding into time offers the alternative that time and energy is uncreatable, is fundamental, uncreated, infinitely old (and young) as energytime, outside our limited universe, it merely emerges inside, as the universe#3 expands into it, timespace #1.

 

[river]

"Most cosmologists think dark energy is spread out across the universe with equal density ---
That would mean more of it is created to fill new space … " bold added.

Read more: https://www.newscientist.com/articl...-force-that-rules-the-universe/#ixzz68Zu8VPWi

The model of the Universe as a sphere expanding into time offers the alternative that time and energy is uncreatable, is fundamental, uncreated, infinitely old (and young) as energytime, outside our limited universe, it merely emerges inside, as the universe#3 expands into it, timespace #1.

To your last statement ; what is the essence of this sphere ? Why does this sphere exist ?

 

[nebel]

To your last statement ; what is the essence of this sphere ? Why does this sphere exist

The sphere in the model that emerged in this discussion comprises all the universe, existing in the "now" of time #1. It is the zero thickness bubble #3 that would result from having all the matter in the universe seen as having travelled outward the same radius distance in time from the point of origin #4 in time , the BB. It would be all the universe drawn out of it's 3 dimension of space into this curved skin expanding outward through time. (from page #40, post # 800).
Why it exists?, well, it is feature in a model like all our mind's attempts to picture things. You can then plug various situations into the model and see where it leads you.
Photons from far away emerged from a younger, a smaller world, or sphere.
There is also a thread, of a model of the universe moving like a wave of energy through the pond of time.
Why all exists and in this way? enough to be here, alive and conscious and enjoying it.

 

[river]

New
↑
To your last statement ; what is the essence of this sphere ? Why does this sphere exist

The sphere in the model that emerged in this discussion comprises all the universe, existing in the "now" of time #1. It is the zero thickness bubble #3 that would result from having all the matter in the universe seen as having travelled outward the same radius distance in time from the point of origin #4 in time , the BB. It would be all the universe drawn out of it's 3 dimension of space into this curved skin expanding outward through time. (from page #40, post # 800).
Why it exists?, well, it is feature in a model like all our mind's attempts to picture things. You can then plug various situations into the model and see where it leads you.
Photons from far away emerged from a younger, a smaller world, or sphere.
There is also a thread, of a model of the universe moving like a wave of energy through the pond of time.
Why all exists and in this way? enough to be here, alive and conscious and enjoying it.

Time #1 is zero thickness , what transforms #1 in to thickness ?

Are you discussing density ?

 

[nebel]

Time #1 is zero thickness , what transforms #1 in to thickness ?[/QUOTE

River,
The item #1 is time, as a first fundamental dimension, as timespace or energytime stretching from the infinite past to the infinite future, as shown by the arrows.You must be asking about #3, the expanding membrane of zero thickness that is place holder for all the universe moving through #1 into the future. never stopping.
We are not dwelling in time. The lag in our nervous system gives us the impression we linger in time, memories.
We, with all matter, relentlessly move through time
It is not tome #1 that is "compressed" into #3, In the model, most, all the time is outside the universe, in it's past #2 and future #1

Are you discussing density ?

No. Time #1 can not be compressed i think, and the zero thickness membrane #3 of the expanding space, matter energy of the universe is that way in the model because it gives the moment of time it's zero length/duration in the futureward movement,

 

[nebel]

River, (reposted for clarity)
The item #1 is time, as a first fundamental dimension, as timespace or energytime stretching from the infinite past to the infinite future, as shown by the arrows.
You must be asking about #3, the expanding membrane of zero thickness that is place holder for all the universe moving through #1 into the future. never stopping.
We are not dwelling in time. The lag in our nervous system gives us the impression we linger in time, memories.
We, with all matter, in #3, relentlessly move through time#1
It is not time #1 that is "compressed" into #3, In the model, most, all the "time", and all the time too, is outside the universe, in it's past #2 and future #1

Are you discussing density ?

No. Time #1 can not be compressed i think, and the zero thickness membrane #3 of the expanding space, matter energy of the universe is that way in the model because it gives the moment of time it's zero length/duration in the radius futureward movement,[/QUOTE]

 

[nebel]

From River in " Is there more Gravity outside than in? " Question:
So your saying that a zero thickness bubble has relevance even though it can't exist ?.
River, the bubble as a model feature has to be of zero thickness to reflect the fact that in our travel through time #1, we dont stop. there is no length to the moment we seem to linger because of our slow nerves. All that you see here is happening in that red line total gravitational field strength occurrs in that abstract model construct of membrane #3.

 

[river]

From River in " Is there more Gravity outside than in? " Question:
So your saying that a zero thickness bubble has relevance even though it can't exist ?.

River, the bubble as a model feature has to be of zero thickness to reflect the fact that in our travel through time #1, we dont stop. there is no length to the moment we seem to linger because of our slow nerves. All that you see here is happening in that red line total gravitational field strength occurrs in that abstract model construct of membrane #3.

Don't get the connection ( highlighted ) .