ALMA sees old galaxies before they merged. two ways to look back into the past?

[river]

In the proposed model, the Universe is expanding as membrane #3 though timespace #1. thought to be a featureless realm in which infinitely old energy and time exists. There were no 3 space dimensions for us , in the time before the "Big Bang". therefore
we live now in "spacetime", the time (marked as #2, the "past" , stretching from the central BB #4 to the present in #3. ). this is our section, out of total limitless timespace, a section marked by the existence of space, since and after after the "Big Bang".
For you it might also be "teatime", or "sleepytime" right now.
Before our Universe, there was energytime, then we came, now it is spacetime. Those that advocate other bubble/baby universes, would think that they have their own 3D space & time, their own "spacetime", so-called, if they spoke a german-like language, because

The term "spacetime" came from Einstein's mother tongue's feature to run words together to no end, to name unique new concepts, like a one-word summary of ideas.
the terms "timespace" and "energytime" are to be understood in the same way. " mathematical imaginations"

so: to summarize,

Time and energy are fundamental, uncreated. they exist in a realm dubbed timespace or energytime. We live in/during spacetime, our allotted section of it, but expanding into the future.[/QUOTE]

Highlighted

Time has no physical dimension in and of its self .

Time is Totally dependent on physical things , the real dimension of physical things , and their movements .

Three dimensions is fundamental to all things .

To say that there is no three dimensional space dimensions misses the understanding that physical things , are fundamentally three dimensions . BB could never exist without real three dimensional thing existing .

 

[river]

Time has no physical particle nor physical field .

 

[Write4U]

Time and energy are fundamental, uncreated. they exist in a realm dubbed timespace or energytime. We live in/during spacetime, our allotted section of it, but expanding into the future.

I agree and that makes time travel impossible. There is only spacetime. If we were to travel back in time, we'd also be traveling back in space. And that cannot physically be done.

We cannot physically travel back in space, but we can look back in spacetime......
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

[nebel]

We cannot physically travel back in space, but we can look back in spacetime...

Yes, and like all messages we receive, there is a horizon. In the expanding sphere model, that is 13.8 billion years. but the photons' travel time along the bubble # 3 is > 6 times longer. therefore only 3/4 of the universe is beyond our horizon,and we can not see into the endless future #1 ahead of us, where we not exist yet, but will come to, as the universe #3 expands into infinite timespace #1.

 

[nebel]

Time is Totally dependent on physical things , the real dimension of physical things , and their movements .
Three dimensions is fundamental to all things .

both the sausage model and the expanding sphere model imply a kind of Urspace, timespace that existed before there was matter aka things, that depend, as you say, on a 3 dimensional frame work.
If we can except that energy in a purest form could exist without being expressed as a condition of matter, or as matter, the concept of uncreated energy* existing in timespace #1 , is feasible., even necessary.;

timespace, or energytime, existing before our beginning and as the future #1, that we are expanding into.

* do you propose that energy has a beginning? even without even a potential? a condition that in turn would require time to exist in?

 

[river]

both the sausage model and the expanding sphere model imply a kind of Urspace, timespace that existed before there was matter aka things, that depend, as you say, on a 3 dimensional frame work.
If we can except that energy in a purest form could exist without being expressed as a condition of matter, or as matter, the concept of uncreated energy* existing in timespace #1 , is feasible., even necessary.;

timespace, or energytime, existing before our beginning and as the future #1, that we are expanding into.

* do you propose that energy has a beginning? even without even a potential? a condition that in turn would require time to exist in?

nebel

I proposed that All States of Energy and Matter have Always Existed , Together For Infinity . Why ?

Because a Universe that is strickley Heat Based Will Die Out . It loses energy . All the time . But in my theory the Universe recycles . From one State to another , perpetually .

The Universe never dies out .

From Extreme Heat Energy from Galactic Core , Quasars , To Extreme Cold Energy Liquid State , such as Hydrogen -276 and Oxygen , at -258 . ( go to my Cosmology , in pseudo science forms , thread search . third page , to get a better idea of my theory ) .

 

[nebel]

I proposed that All States of Energy and Matter have Always Existed , Together For Infinity

Dirac with his "sea" of particles, Penrose too, wrote papers based on similar assumptions. .
I prefer to merely maintain that energy in an undefined form should have existed before the big bang beginning of our little local universe, and still be in that "out there" #1. . always.
The OP touched on a TIME question. The argument for fundamental, infinitely reaching time is bolstered by the indestructible, un-created nature of energy, which required time, even as a potential, to exist.
The difference of our opinions is, that you are projecting local conditions like "heat" = movement of particles , of matter into the pre- Big Bang era, time.
In the model, the domain #1 before, and still outside our universe #3, is unspecified in such a way,
Current research suggests that
energy inside the Universe is increasing, to account for that, nebel's model predicts that the expansion of the universe #3 into energytime, timespace #1 causes the absorption of more of the fundamental energy (dark perhaps) into our universe. so,
your proposition is more detailed, daring, making our local condition, 3D space, heat, the only game in town, the big, unlimited laboratory.

 

[Write4U]

The OP touched on a TIME question. The argument for fundamental, infinitely reaching time is bolstered by the indestructible, un-created nature of energy, which required time, even as a potential, to exist.

I have questions about that statement.

David Bohm was mentioned as proposing a universal state of "pure energy", but I believe that is not quite correct.
I believe he proposed an a priori state of "pure potential", and "enfolded" potential may well be a timeless quality, whereas "unfolded" potential does have measurable temporal existence.
Example;
Potential = that which may become reality. i.e. Potential is not yet real. If something is not yet expressed in reality, does it require time?

Moreover, is a wave a physical thing with an independent existence? As Albert Einstein wrote:

"It seems as
though we must use sometimes the one theory and sometimes the other, while at times we may use either. We are faced with a new kind of difficulty. We have two contradictory pictures of reality; separately neither of them fully explains the phenomena of light, but together they do".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave–particle_duality

Which brings up question if a particle has two simultaneous or two alternating timelines between the two potential states?

 

[nebel]

Which brings up question if a particle has two simultaneous or two alternating timelines between the two potential states?

and if there were no particles in the pre Big Bang energytime, timespace, we do not have to worry about "lines" during that domaine, epoch either. suffice it to assume, that uncreated energy existed then and there, and still exists where we are going. the future time #1

Potential = that which may become reality. i.e. Potential is not yet real. If something is not yet expressed in reality, does it require time?

From my travaille with gravity potential , or stored energy at different heights, it appears even a potential never exists by itself, so to speak of an energy potential in the infinite pre - Big Bang domaine would at least require time to exist along with the potential, no matter how it is expressed during that energytime or timespace sans 3 spatial dimensions.

 

[exchemist]

I have questions about that statement.

David Bohm was mentioned as proposing a universal state of "pure energy", but I believe that is not quite correct.
I believe he proposed an a priori state of "pure potential", and "enfolded" potential may well be a timeless quality, whereas "unfolded" potential does have measurable temporal existence.
Example;
Potential = that which may become reality. i.e. Potential is not yet real. If something is not yet expressed in reality, does it require time?

Moreover, is a wave a physical thing with an independent existence? As Albert Einstein wrote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave–particle_duality

Which brings up question if a particle has two simultaneous or two alternating timelines between the two potential states?

...enfolding and unfolding...potentials.......

"Pure energy" is not science. It is Star Trek. Energy is not "stuff". You can't have a jug of energy. Energy is a property of a physical system.

 

[Write4U]

...enfolding and unfolding...potentials.......

"Pure energy" is not science. It is Star Trek. Energy is not "stuff". You can't have a jug of energy. Energy is a property of a physical system.

You are misquoting me again.

W4U said: David Bohm was mentioned as proposing a universal state of "pure energy", but I believe that is not quite correct.

I believe he proposed an a priori state of "pure potential", and "enfolded" potential may well be a timeless quality, whereas "unfolded" potential does have measurable temporal existence.

It's Bohmian Mechanics. A hierarchy of orders starting with a chaotic state of pure potential in the prevailing conditions directly after the BB.
Not stuff, not energy, but pure potential. Stuff came later when things cooled down.

But it looks like science is using some of the Urey-Miller experiment, electricity, to call bacteria.
See my thread on microtubules.

 

[exchemist]

You are misquoting me again. It's Bohmian Mechanics. A hierarchy of orders starting with a chaotic state of pure potential in the prevailing conditions directly after the BB.
Not stuff, not energy, but pure potential. Stuff came later when things cooled down.

But it looks like science is using some of the Urey-Miller experiment, electricity, to call bacteria.
See my thread on microtubules.

Bohm was a physicist. He would not have made the blunder of drivelling about "pure energy".

 

[Write4U]

Bohm spoke of Infinite Potential.

Infinite Potential (the Life and Times of David Bohm)
(Extracts from the biography of David Bohm written by David Peat)

As such, Bohm was really a throwback to an earlier age, in which physics involved deep and quiet contemplation of nature; when it was more concerned with discovering the underlying order of cosmos than with making predictions and solving practical problems. When he thought back to the golden age of Planck and Einstein, or even earlier, to the age of Newton, Bohm could not help feeling that physics had become small and the concerns of its practioners petty.

http://www.david-bohm.net/infinite_potential.html

The Dalai Lama & Science
— A Birthday Celebration

0 7 . 05 . 2 0
5:30 PM PT | 8:30 PM ET

ABOUT THE FILM
INFINITE POTENTIAL takes us on a mystical and scientific journey into the nature of life and reality with David Bohm, the man Einstein called his “spiritual son” and the Dalai Lama his “science guru.” A physicist and explorer of Consciousness, Bohm turned to Eastern wisdom to develop groundbreaking insights into the profound interconnectedness of the Universe and our place within it.

https://www.infinitepotential.com/?utm_source=Google Ads&utm_medium=CPC&utm_campaign

 

[exchemist]

Bohm spoke of Infinite Potential.

Infinite Potential (the Life and Times of David Bohm)
(Extracts from the biography of David Bohm written by David Peat) http://www.david-bohm.net/infinite_potential.html

The Dalai Lama & Science
— A Birthday Celebration

0 7 . 05 . 2 0
5:30 PM PT | 8:30 PM ET

https://www.infinitepotential.com/?utm_source=Google Ads&utm_medium=CPC&utm_campaign

So not "pure energy" then? Well, conceding you made that bit up is progress.

As for "infinite potential" (utterly different from pure energy of course), have you a link to anything he wrote that speaks about "infinite potential"?

If I google "infinite potential", all I get is a lot of woo about the Dalai Lama.

 

[river]

So not "pure energy" then? Well, conceding you made that bit up is progress.

As for "infinite potential" (utterly different from pure energy of course), have you a link to anything he wrote that speaks about "infinite potential"?

If I google "infinite potential", all I get is a lot of woo about the Dalai Lama.

In the Gnostic , every Human Being has infinite potential .

 

[Write4U]

As for "infinite potential" (utterly different from pure energy of course), have you a link to anything he wrote that speaks about "infinite potential"?

Infinite potential is Bohm's Universal background and platform of the Implicate Order, the infinite unexpressed possibilities and probabilities of becoming something given sufficient time.

If anything, do watch from 52:00 for a remarkable new perspective on the double slit experiment.
Question: Is the concept of "hidden variables" a form of quantum "superposition"?

 

[river]

Infinite potential is Bohm's Universal background and platform of the Implicate Order, the infinite unexpressed possibilities and probabilities of becoming something given sufficient time.

Question: Is the concept of "hidden variables" a form of quantum "superposition"?

Define " superposition " .

 

[Write4U]

Define " superposition " .

Watch the video from 52:00, there is your superposition uncertainty effect made visible.
And from there there it beautifully demonstrated the process of reality as a series of "unfolding" and "enfolding"....

 

[river]

Watch the video from 52:00, there is your superposition uncertainty effect made visible.
And from there there it beautifully demonstrated the process of reality as a series of "unfolding" and "enfolding"....

Information , unfolding .

 

[Write4U]

The God of the spiritual world = Potential in the real world . The Implicate becoming Explicate.

Does "information" need to be physical?